Southwest Chief hits dump truck

[newbryford]

Not looking good.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10958473/Multiple-people-feared-dead-Amtrak-derailment-near-Kansas-City.html

[eldomtom2]

Not even lights for a 90mph crossing? It's shocking how badly American railroads are run.

[irishmail]

More info here,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61958813

[mdvle]

8 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Not even lights for a 90mph crossing? It's shocking how badly American railroads are run.

 

Don't be so quick to blame the railroad - this road crossing is the responsibility of the State of Missouri.

 

Apparently it is in this year's budget to have lights/gates installed - https://www.kmbc.com/article/records-show-train-crossing-at-site-of-fatal-amtrak-crash-on-list-for-safety-improvements/40438494

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Don't be so quick to blame the railroad - this road crossing is the responsibility of the State of Missouri.

 

Apparently it is in this year's budget to have lights/gates installed - https://www.kmbc.com/article/records-show-train-crossing-at-site-of-fatal-amtrak-crash-on-list-for-safety-improvements/40438494

 

 

 

A tad late methinks?

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 27/06/2022 at 22:31, newbryford said:

Not looking good.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10958473/Multiple-people-feared-dead-Amtrak-derailment-near-Kansas-City.html

 

For me, as an miserable old duffer, I find it amazing/appalling that people are filming a death scene.

Maybe it's just me?

 

Mike.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

For me, as an miserable old duffer, I find it amazing/appalling that people are filming a death scene.

Maybe it's just me?

No, it's the way people are in C21. And the media invite it. Read any BBC News website item, and at the bottom it invites you to contact them if you have been directly affected by the story in question. It's a lot cheaper than sending a filmcrew. Things filmed virtually as they happen now appear on social media within minutes. Those filming see themselves getting their Andy Warhol 15 mins of fame. 

[mervyn]

I am still amazed that they dont at least put a board with a phone number on to call the dispatcher to ask permission to cross, at these high speed remote crossings, or if no cell coverage to put a landline phone there . bit late for those that have lost their lives in this terrible accident .

[Mike_Walker]

16 minutes ago, mervyn said:

I am still amazed that they dont at least put a board with a phone number on to call the dispatcher to ask permission to cross, at these high speed remote crossings, or if no cell coverage to put a landline phone there . bit late for those that have lost their lives in this terrible accident .

The only problem with that is that many lines in North America are "Dark" that is unsignalled even high speed passenger lines and do not have continuous track circuiting as we do.  Therefore the dispatcher may only haver a vague idea of what traffic is in or near a specific area,  Sadly, the distances involved mean that the railroads are happy to take a risk rather than invest in what would be a very expensive system.

[mdvle]

For those who haven't experienced North American trains first hand I will point out that the lights on the front are bright - 2 very bright headlights plus the 2 ditch lights - which doesn't translate well in photos/videos - which makes a train very visible even from a distance.

 

As for crossings - the location of this incident is outside of a town whose 2020 population was 163 people.  There are a lot of places like that in the US, and the nature of that sparse population is that there are a lot of roads with grade crossings where there is insufficient road traffic and tax base (to fund the work) to protect the crossings let alone grade separate them.  It simply isn't financially viable to protect all of them.

 

(I note that the location is so insignificant that in the 20 or so years of Google Streetview that they haven't taken pictures of the road/crossing in question)

 

10 hours ago, mervyn said:

I am still amazed that they dont at least put a board with a phone number on to call the dispatcher to ask permission to cross, at these high speed remote crossings, or if no cell coverage to put a landline phone there . bit late for those that have lost their lives in this terrible accident .

 

Note that this crossing is a regular road crossing - expecting that traffic on a regular road would stop and make a phone call to cross is seriously optimistic given a society that so often treats lights and/or gates as obstacles.  Metrolinx (GO Transit in Toronto area) in the last month released 2 videos to the media for safety reasons.  The 2nd video showed a car stop at the gate and then proceed to drive around it then stop on the tracks and get hit.  https://blog.metrolinx.com/2022/06/20/shocking-new-video-shows-why-any-time-is-train-time-at-level-crossings/  (for anyone concerned, the driver survived)

 

The other video (cab video) shows 3 kids on a bridge and 2 decide to outrun the train (again, all survived) - it is the CP Galt Sub over the Humber River in Toronto with a westbound Milton line train - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/go-train-nearly-hitting-three-young-people-milton-1.6470572

 

None of the above is meant as a commentary on the truck driver in the Amtrak crash - we don't know enough about whether the claims of the road crossing being dangerous are accurate or not - but rather just to point out that North Americans don't respect the dangers that trains can be and it is that lack of respect and/or impatience that causes most of the incidents.

[mdvle]

This article documents the scale of the problem.

 

Missouri alone has 3,500 "passive" crossings, with 130,000 in the US (figures from the NTSB).

 

Article states $400,000 to upgrade the crossing in question.  If we use that we get $1,400,000,000 ($1.4 billion) just to upgrade all the crossings in Missouri or $52,000,000,000 ($52 billion) for the entire US.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ntsb-chair-unheeded-recommendations-prevented-deadly-missouri-amtrak/story?id=85917928

[mdvle]

From media reports of the latest NTSB briefing no mechanical faults have been found with the train.  The train was doing 89mph a quarter mile prior to the crash and 87mph at time of collision.

 

 

[BR traction instructor]

Suggesting that truckers are held responsible for obstructing the railroad when incidents like this occur has drawn some fierce responses from such characters in the past. My take on the situation now is to build all U.S. locos substantially and with sufficient front end obstacle deflection to simply charge the problem out of the way. As the gist of a popular sign suggests on U.S. crossing grades…Our freight consists take up to 10 minutes to cross this grade, whether your vehicle is on it or not.

 

BeRTIe

Edited June 30, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Mike_Walker]

3 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

Suggesting that truckers are held responsible for obstructing the railroad when incidents like this occur has drawn some fierce responses from such characters in the past. My take on the situation now is to build all U.S. locos substantially and with sufficient front end obstacle deflection to simply charge the problem out of the way. As the gist of a popular sign suggests on U.S. crossing grades…Our freight consists take up to 10 minutes to cross this grade, whether your vehicle is on it or not.

 

BeRTIe

North American locomotives are substantially built already and are heavy and have always been so (by UK standards).  All have substantial pilot ploughs which are designed for deflecting objects away from the track as well as clearing snow.  The problem is that the trucks too are often larger and heavier than their European counterparts.  One only has to consider the outcome of similar collisions were they to occur here to see how difficult it would be to design a locomotive capable of withstanding such an impact.  The severity of the outcome can vary due to a number of variables; it doesn't have to be a large truck, a car can also cause a serious derailment particularly if there is any pointwork in the area as Ufton Nervet demonstrated.

 

There is a law in the US and Canada that requires the drivers of trucks conveying hazardous materials and buses/coaches to stop at all ungated crossings and check the line before crossing.  Sadly, this is too often ignored, in fact it is ignored more than it is observed.  Drivers know their chances of being apprehended are virtually nil and don't want to be unpopular with other road users by causing hold ups.  In virtually every such case it is the vehicle driver who is at fault.

 

As implied above, another reason why North American drivers tend to take risks is the length of a typical freight and the time it takes to pass coupled with them being a generally impatient breed.

[johnofwessex]

The US has a much higher road fatality rate than the UK so its perhaps a symptom rather than a cause of accidents like these

[brynna79]

It would seem that the crossing is elevated (humped) from the road either side and a dirt track in effect.  I watched a news broadcast that had the NTSB discussing what they had seen on the video from the cab and that there was dust being slung up as the truck approached the crossing.  They had said there could be a number of factors that meant the truck did not stop at this stage, including line to sight clearance due to the rail road being elevated.  They went on to say that this crossing was due and will need to be addressed as a matter of urgency.  It was a useful video to watch - link below 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhum4zg_Kw4

 

Again, it was interesting because it was the NTSB that were providing the discussion points, something that perhaps would not be as forthcoming in the UK. 

 

Cheers

[mdvle]

15 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

My take on the situation now is to build all U.S. locos substantially and with sufficient front end obstacle deflection to simply charge the problem out of the way.

 

The images that have been posted show there isn't a lot left of the truck - the most common image is the frame with nothing attached to it plus an image of an axle separated from the rest of the truck.

 

By comparison look at the videos show the loco with minimal damage and it stayed upright and on the tracks.  See the video above posted by brynna79 for a track level pictures, or the video below of helicopter/drone footage from a news station - somewhere around the 8:30 mark they show a good image of the front of the train.  Note the relatively minimal damage and that the crew cabin was not compromised and that the lead engine remained on the tracks.

 

(also, the deaths were the driver of the truck and 3 Amtrak passengers - the most dangerous part of this crash from a train perspective was from accounts the passengers being thrown around (along with anything else in the cabin)).

 

There isn't a lot more than can be done to build US locos stronger than they already are.

 

(they also provide coverage of the crossing in question and it does appear based to be something of a hill to get over the railroad tracks - don't know how accurate it is by news reports have quoted a local as it being 6')

 

 

9 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

The US has a much higher road fatality rate than the UK so its perhaps a symptom rather than a cause of accidents like these

 

The new Siemens Chargers locos I believe have a cosmetic fibreglass nose to make them easier to fix after grade crossing incidents - that fact that is necessary tells a lot of the story.

 

8 hours ago, brynna79 said:

Again, it was interesting because it was the NTSB that were providing the discussion points, something that perhaps would not be as forthcoming in the UK.

 

The NTSB in the US, and the TSB in Canada, both are frustrated with a lack of action on items of safety that they believe are necessary that the respective governments have failed to act on and thus both can be quite forward when things like this happen.

 

That said while I think it would be nice to eliminate all the unprotected grade crossings the size of the problem make it financially difficult - and in addition to the numbers I quoted above consider that there are likely protected crossings that really should be grade separated which costs a lot more and is competing for the same funding...

Edited June 30, 2022 by mdvle

[Regularity]

17 hours ago, mdvle said:

The NTSB in the US, and the TSB in Canada, both are frustrated with a lack of action on items of safety that they believe are necessary that the respective governments have failed to act on and thus both can be quite forward when things like this happen.

 

That said while I think it would be nice to eliminate all the unprotected grade crossings the size of the problem make it financially difficult - and in addition to the numbers I quoted above consider that there are likely protected crossings that really should be grade separated which costs a lot more and is competing for the same funding...

There is also the question of who is going to pay for it.

If the railway was there first - more often the case in North America than in Europe - then they own the right of way, and the road is infringing upon it, so it comes down to the local government, county government, State/Province government or national government, depending on the funding for that road.

 

This can then be compounded by funding schedules. I know of three UK instances in 2 different locations where the railways were undertaking substantial work (both places, overhead electrification and in one, widening from 2 to 4 tracks some decades earlier) where the railways have offered to build a bridge instead of a level crossing or a new bridge in place of an old one, all at their own expense as it would make life simpler for them, only for the local authority to decline the offer as they didn’t have the budget allocation for that particular road in their immediate planning horizons. Road users then complain about the holdups, but it’s nothing to do with the railways!

[barkingdigger]

On 29/06/2022 at 21:13, mdvle said:

For those who haven't experienced North American trains first hand I will point out that the lights on the front are bright - 2 very bright headlights plus the 2 ditch lights - which doesn't translate well in photos/videos - which makes a train very visible even from a distance.

 

As for crossings - the location of this incident is outside of a town whose 2020 population was 163 people.  There are a lot of places like that in the US, and the nature of that sparse population is that there are a lot of roads with grade crossings where there is insufficient road traffic and tax base (to fund the work) to protect the crossings let alone grade separate them.  It simply isn't financially viable to protect all of them.

 

(I note that the location is so insignificant that in the 20 or so years of Google Streetview that they haven't taken pictures of the road/crossing in question)

 

 

Note that this crossing is a regular road crossing - expecting that traffic on a regular road would stop and make a phone call to cross is seriously optimistic given a society that so often treats lights and/or gates as obstacles.  Metrolinx (GO Transit in Toronto area) in the last month released 2 videos to the media for safety reasons.  The 2nd video showed a car stop at the gate and then proceed to drive around it then stop on the tracks and get hit.  https://blog.metrolinx.com/2022/06/20/shocking-new-video-shows-why-any-time-is-train-time-at-level-crossings/  (for anyone concerned, the driver survived)

 

The other video (cab video) shows 3 kids on a bridge and 2 decide to outrun the train (again, all survived) - it is the CP Galt Sub over the Humber River in Toronto with a westbound Milton line train - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/go-train-nearly-hitting-three-young-people-milton-1.6470572

 

None of the above is meant as a commentary on the truck driver in the Amtrak crash - we don't know enough about whether the claims of the road crossing being dangerous are accurate or not - but rather just to point out that North Americans don't respect the dangers that trains can be and it is that lack of respect and/or impatience that causes most of the incidents.

 

None of this is new - as far back as the 1940s Burma Shave warned US drivers:

 

Remember this
If you’d
Be spared
Trains don’t whistle
Because they’re scared

 

Sadly it seems the only way to guarantee everyone's safety is to physically separate roads and rails through the use of bridges, underpasses, and overpasses.  Growing up on Long Island we had loads of grade crossings (most with lights and barriers) and still had a number of incidents each year. 

 

Our trains were mostly fast commuter consists, and the LIRR ran them in push-pull mode to avoid turning the trains at each end of a run.  Rather than just fit a control cab on the end of a passenger car in the 1970s they went out and bought old F-units to serve as unpowered cabs just to give the driver some protection.  (The empty space inside held a generator set for lights and AC in the cars...)  Folks often wondered why a short five-car train needed a loco at each end!