Midland Railway Kirtley 0-6-0WT Small Well Tank Class

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

firstly, may I apologise for my very limited knowledge of all things Midland.

 

I am in the process of designing a small/micro layout that I want to set in the Derbyshire Peaks area. My usual time period is 1905 give-or-take a year or two, but I'm tempted to wind back the clock into the late 19thC. I'm looking at two or three small tank locos, one of which will be a 1377 Class 0-6-0T.

 

However, along with many others no doubt, I find Matthew Kirtley's double-framed designs charming, and while paddling the internet (I can't surf!) I came across this:

Quite delightful! I want one!!!

 

But, and here's the rub for a Midland Novice, what is it? A Kirtley 0-6-0 Well Tank, yes, but of what Class? Wikipedia, that infallible 🤣 source of information, is of no help! I've just received a copy of Midland Locomotives Vol.3 by Essery & Jenkinson which I'd hoped may have something but doesn't.

 

Now to the kit :( Its a Peter K effort and by all accounts barely even the basis of a scratch-build..... And although their website is still running, it appears that Kemilway have gone the way of the dodo, which seems to be born out by Trustpilot reviews.

 

So, dear friends, my question is this: Where might I find information on this little gem of a loco? Ideally a drawing (ha-ha!), but some details of the class would be most welcome.

 

Thanks in anticipation,

 

Mark

Edited July 7, 2022 by 2996 Victor

[chris p bacon]

I haven't a clue, but I know a man who might well do....paging @Compound2632

[2996 Victor]

26 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

I haven't a clue, but I know a man who might well do....paging @Compound2632

Good thinking! Thanks! :)

 

Cheers,

Mark

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Dear All,

 

firstly, may I apologise for my very limited knowledge of all things Midland.

 

I am in the process of designing a small/micro layout that I want to set in the Derbyshire Peaks area. My usual time period is 1905 give-or-take a year or two, but I'm tempted to wind back the clock into the late 19thC. I'm looking at two or three small tank locos, one of which will be a 1377 Class 0-6-0T.

 

However, along with many others no doubt, I find Matthew Kirtley's double-framed designs charming, and while paddling the internet (I can't surf!) I came across this:

Quite delightful! I want one!!!

 

But, and here's the rub for a Midland Novice, what is it? A Kirtley 0-6-0 Well Tank, yes, but of what Class? Wikipedia, that infallible 🤣 source of information, is of no help! I've just received a copy of Midland Locomotives Vol.3 by Essery & Jenkinson which I'd hoped may have something but doesn't.

 

Now to the kit :( Its a Peter K effort and by all accounts barely even the basis of a scratch-build..... And although their website is still running, it appears that Kemilway have gone the way of the dodo, which seems to be born out by Trustpilot reviews.

 

So, dear friends, my question is this: Where might I find information on this little gem of a loco? Ideally a drawing (ha-ha!), but some details of the class would be most welcome.

 

Thanks in anticipation,

 

Mark

Gorgeous.

 

Somewhere I have a Peter K kit that's half finished. One day I really must get round to finishing it.

 

A shame if Kemilway have gone - I have built a couple of their 4MT 2-6-0 chassis, with compensation, & was very pleased with the ease in which they went together.

 

Mark

 

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I haven't a clue, but I know a man who might well do....paging @Compound2632

 

Most flattering but all I can do is precis the information in S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 2 (Irwell Press, 2007).

 

Which i will do later.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 2 (Irwell Press, 2007).

 

... Chapter 15, The Small Well Tanks. This was a group of a dozen engines built in 1871-2; they were nominally rebuilds of Jenny Lind-type 2-2-2s built by E.B. Wilson & Co and at Derby in 1848-1856. It seems that the boilers of those engines may have been the only component re-used. The iron boilers of the mid-19th century were generally longer-lived than later steel boilers. However, all were re-boilered early in Johnson's tenure, 1875-8, though with boilers of the same dimensions as the originals. Eight engines were re-boilered again in 1894-7, the new boilers apparently being of similar pattern, so the antique raised firebox was retained to the end. The four engines that were not re-boilered were withdrawn in 1897-9, along with two of the reboilered engines (one of which had had a second-hand boiler off a very old 2-4-0). Three more were withdrawn in 1904 but the last three survived as 1907 numbers 1601-3 until 1924, 1921, and 1920 respectively. (No. 1601 was renumbered 1605 a couple of months before withdrawal.

 

The numbering history of these engines is horrendous. The model depicts one of the simpler cases: built in 1871 as No. 1004 - a duplicate list number - it was renumbered the following year as 2004, as the duplicate list numbers were all moved up by 1000 to make way for the ever-expanding numbers of new double-frame goods engines. Following reboilering in 1878 it went on the capital list as No. 219 but in 1883 it went back on the duplicate list as 219A, where it stayed until withdrawal in 1904.

 

The longest-lived was the most-renumbered - possibly the most-renumbered Midland engine of all? It started out in 1872 as No. 2000, then on reboilering in 1875, it became No. 213. When it went back on the duplicate list in 1890, it did so as 205A, which was changed to 201A in 1897. Then 1601 in 1907 and 1605 in 1923. 

 

Now the downside for Mark's Derbyshire Peaks scheme - these engines spent their working lives either at Bristol or Burton, the longest survivors being at Burton where they were well-suited to the sharp curves and undulating gradients of the network of back-street lines serving the breweries. 

 

I'm afraid I don't know of any drawing but I dare say there are some around. The 1903 diagram just sketches in the wheels and chimney! Wheels were 4' 2½" diameter by that date, with 7' 3" + 6' 9" wheelbase. The dimensions given there for the boiler are internal, not over cladding, but the boiler barrel length was 10' 6" and firebox, outside, 4' 3".

Edited July 6, 2022 by Compound2632

[hayfield]

21 hours ago, MarkC said:

Gorgeous.

 

Somewhere I have a Peter K kit that's half finished. One day I really must get round to finishing it.

 

A shame if Kemilway have gone - I have built a couple of their 4MT 2-6-0 chassis, with compensation, & was very pleased with the ease in which they went together.

 

Mark

 

 

 

The Kemilway/Peter K website is still up and running and seemingly still supplying kits, it looks like most of the Peter K kits are etches only. I am interested in a kit for a NLR loco but awaiting a reply

 

https://www.kemilway.com/peter-k.html

Edited July 7, 2022 by hayfield

[2996 Victor]

37 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

The Kemilway/Peter K website is still up and running and seemingly still supplying kits, it looks like most of the Peter K kits are etches only. I am interested in a kit for a NLR loco but awaiting a reply

 

https://www.kemilway.com/peter-k.html

I emailed them at the weekend, also waiting for a reply, but not holding my breath after reading trustpilot reviews.....

[2996 Victor]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... Chapter 15, The Small Well Tanks. This was a group of a dozen engines built in 1871-2; they were nominally rebuilds of Jenny Lind-type 2-2-2s built by E.B. Wilson & Co and at Derby in 1848-1856. It seems that the boilers of those engines may have been the only component re-used. The iron boilers of the mid-19th century were generally longer-lived than later steel boilers. However, all were re-boilered early in Johnson's tenure, 1875-8, though with boilers of the same dimensions as the originals. Eight engines were re-boilered again in 1894-7, the new boilers apparently being of similar pattern, so the antique raised firebox was retained to the end. The four engines that were not re-boilered were withdrawn in 1897-9, along with two of the reboilered engines (one of which had had a second-hand boiler off a very old 2-4-0). Three more were withdrawn in 1904 but the last three survived as 1907 numbers 1601-3 until 1924, 1921, and 1920 respectively. (No. 1601 was renumbered 1605 a couple of months before withdrawal.

 

The numbering history of these engines is horrendous. The model depicts one of the simpler cases: built in 1871 as No. 1004 - a duplicate list number - it was renumbered the following year as 2004, as the duplicate list numbers were all moved up by 1000 to make way for the ever-expanding numbers of new double-frame goods engines. Following reboilering in 1878 it went on the capital list as No. 219 but in 1883 it went back on the duplicate list as 219A, where it stayed until withdrawal in 1904.

 

The longest-lived was the most-renumbered - possibly the most-renumbered Midland engine of all? It started out in 1872 as No. 2000, then on reboilering in 1875, it became No. 213. When it went back on the duplicate list in 1890, it did so as 205A, which was changed to 201A in 1897. Then 1601 in 1907 and 1605 in 1923. 

 

Now the downside for Mark's Derbyshire Peaks scheme - these engines spent their working lives either at Bristol or Burton, the longest survivors being at Burton where they were well-suited to the sharp curves and undulating gradients of the network of back-street lines serving the breweries. 

 

I'm afraid I don't know of any drawing but I dare say there are some around. The 1903 diagram just sketches in the wheels and chimney! Wheels were 4' 2½" diameter by that date, with 7' 3" + 6' 9" wheelbase. The dimensions given there for the boiler are internal, not over cladding, but the boiler barrel length was 10' 6" and firebox, outside, 4' 3".

Thank you so much for taking the time to find all that info - the numbering is, shall we say, mildly confusing. But its interesting to note that, generally-speaking, they don't appear to have changed much in appearance, although presumably some form of cab replaced the weatherboard at some point. It would be interesting to know what the Peter K kit was based on, whether it was just the 1903 diagram or whether it was a drawing.

 

As for my Peaks scheme, I can always invoke Rule 1 and claim that my fictional branch is connected to a quarry or mine via a lightly-laid and tortuous line!

 

Many thanks once again!

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Thank you so much for taking the time to find all that info

 

Like I said, it's all in the book. I come from a long line of librarians so know that the important thing is not knowing stuff but knowing where to look it up!

 

4 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

presumably some form of cab replaced the weatherboard at some point. 

 

In fact not. In a photo of No. 1601 taken in 1920 it has the original weatherboard. It carries its number on the cab side-sheet in the pre-1907 brass numerals, since transfers wouldn't fit. In fact apart from it being painted black, the only difference to 19th century condition is the Deeley smokebox, smokebox door, and chimney.

 

 

10 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

the 1903 diagram

 

The 1903 diagram is in no viable sense a drawing! I think there must be an "enthusiast's drawing" around somewhere; apart from that there's the basic dimensions of wheel base and diameter and photos.

 

12 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

I can always invoke Rule 1 and claim that my fictional branch is connected to a quarry or mine via a lightly-laid and tortuous line!

 

Here's your "rule 1" ticket: In the 1880s and 90s the Midland hired out a number of its small antique tank engines to various collieries, foundries, etc. on its system, many in Derbyshire. I think these may have been supplied as cover for a firm's own engine going away for overhaul but some were longer-term loans. The Small Well Tanks were hired out, but only to Ind Coope at Burton and the Bristol Port and Pier Company at Avonmouth, in both cases near their home sheds. But Summerson does say that in the 1890s the records stop giving details of the hirers, merely recording "engine on loan" and "engine returned"...

[hayfield]

35 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

I emailed them at the weekend, also waiting for a reply, but not holding my breath after reading trustpilot reviews.....

 

I treat these type of companies who allow feedback with caution. In general its unsatisfied customers who tend to use these facilities and that includes me

 

When booking holidays I always read negative feedback as well as good ones. I can think of our trip to Lake Como, the hotel was slaughtered, admitted it was 3 star and to an Italian style rather than the usual Northern European standard. We had the top level of all inclusive package, including the use of two lakeside restaurants and bar. What a super holiday we had !!

 

The feedback seems quite reasonable and as said be careful, I do see the business is both trading now and getting good feedback. Lets hope he/they are over their troubles. I plan to use this company but as always I will use my credit card or PayPal both of whom will protect my purchases, as they refund on non delivered claims

 

 

[2996 Victor]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Like I said, it's all in the book. I come from a long line of librarians so know that the important thing is not knowing stuff but knowing where to look it up!

Thanks again! Totally agree about the knowing where to look - I do it all the time with work and it always makes me think of Sean Connery in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, "I wrote it down in my diary so I wouldn't have to remember it!"

 

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

In fact not. In a photo of No. 1601 taken in 1920 it has the original weatherboard. It carries its number on the cab side-sheet in the pre-1907 brass numerals, since transfers wouldn't fit. In fact apart from it being painted black, the only difference to 19th century condition is the Deeley smokebox, smokebox door, and chimney.

Incredible! What an anachronism - I'll bet they weren't popular with the crews for that reason.

 

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The 1903 diagram is in no viable sense a drawing! I think there must be an "enthusiast's drawing" around somewhere; apart from that there's the basic dimensions of wheel base and diameter and photos.

Some work to do there, then! I remembered the The Midland Railway Study Centre, and I've been having a quick peruse but so far I've only found a reference to photographs in the Stephen Summerson Collection - presumably these are the ones reproduced in his books, in which case a look at AbeBooks is on the cards!

 

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Here's your "rule 1" ticket: In the 1880s and 90s the Midland hired out a number of its small antique tank engines to various collieries, foundries, etc. on its system, many in Derbyshire. I think these may have been supplied as cover for a firm's own engine going away for overhaul but some were longer-term loans. The Small Well Tanks were hired out, but only to Ind Coope at Burton and the Bristol Port and Pier Company at Avonmouth, in both cases near their home sheds. But Summerson does say that in the 1890s the records stop giving details of the hirers, merely recording "engine on loan" and "engine returned"...

Perfect - my Get Out of Jail Card!

 

Many, many thanks once again,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

6 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I treat these type of companies who allow feedback with caution. In general its unsatisfied customers who tend to use these facilities and that includes me

 

When booking holidays I always read negative feedback as well as good ones. I can think of our trip to Lake Como, the hotel was slaughtered, admitted it was 3 star and to an Italian style rather than the usual Northern European standard. We had the top level of all inclusive package, including the use of two lakeside restaurants and bar. What a super holiday we had !!

 

The feedback seems quite reasonable and as said be careful, I do see the business is both trading now and getting good feedback. Lets hope he/they are over their troubles. I plan to use this company but as always I will use my credit card or PayPal both of whom will protect my purchases, as they refund on non delivered claims

 

 

Sound advice, and I agree totally about reading both the good and the not-so-good. I really do hope that Kemilway are still able to supply their kits as the range looks very enticing!

 

Cheers,

Mark

[hayfield]

I am not condoning those companies who ignore their customers, but on the other hand some brands in model railways are run by folk either on their own and or have daytime jobs, in some cases look on the business as a service to others rather than a profit centre. We cannot always expect immediate replies to our queries on the other hand we should not be ignored

 

Lets not ignore quite often traders are at the mercy of their suppliers, sometimes being let down by them.

 

As I said I will be trying the business out myself and will report back on my experience.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Incredible! What an anachronism - I'll bet they weren't popular with the crews for that reason.

 

These engines were used for shunting and short trip work. Lack of cab was popular for such work, giving good all-round visibility. When it rains, it rains. At worst your beard gets soggy.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

I am not condoning those companies who ignore their customers, but on the other hand some brands in model railways are run by folk either on their own and or have daytime jobs, in some cases look on the business as a service to others rather than a profit centre. We cannot always expect immediate replies to our queries on the other hand we should not be ignored

 

Lets not ignore quite often traders are at the mercy of their suppliers, sometimes being let down by them.

 

As I said I will be trying the business out myself and will report back on my experience.

 

 

I asked numerous times about the "Spring Bargains" and the NLR Tank and carriage etchings over ten years ago without reply. The website hasn't been updated since then.

 

I think they are well gone I'm afraid.

 

 

Jason

[2996 Victor]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

At worst your beard gets soggy.

🤣

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

I am not condoning those companies who ignore their customers, but on the other hand some brands in model railways are run by folk either on their own and or have daytime jobs, in some cases look on the business as a service to others rather than a profit centre. We cannot always expect immediate replies to our queries on the other hand we should not be ignored

 

Lets not ignore quite often traders are at the mercy of their suppliers, sometimes being let down by them.

 

As I said I will be trying the business out myself and will report back on my experience.

It isn't a 'service to others', if they ignore would be customers for ages on end!

 

Many small (and large!) businesses can and do 'forget' to reply to emails every now and again, but ignoring repeatedly helps no one. Especially in the model railway field, where often there simply is no competing product.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

It isn't a 'service to others', if they ignore would be customers for ages on end!

 

Many small (and large!) businesses can and do 'forget' to reply to emails every now and again, but ignoring repeatedly helps no one. Especially in the model railway field, where often there simply is no competing product.

 

Well done for totally misrepresenting what I said

 

I am not condoning those companies who ignore their customers,

 

I think this is quite clear and is in agreement  with your own opinion

 

but on the other hand some brands in model railways are run by folk either on their own and or have daytime jobs, in some cases look on the business as a service to others rather than a profit centre.

 

Nothing to do with the business in question, its a statement of how many of the smaller operations are run

[hayfield]

On 07/07/2022 at 09:30, hayfield said:

 

 

The Kemilway/Peter K website is still up and running and seemingly still supplying kits, it looks like most of the Peter K kits are etches only. I am interested in a kit for a NLR loco but awaiting a reply

 

https://www.kemilway.com/peter-k.html

 

On 07/07/2022 at 11:04, hayfield said:

 

I treat these type of companies who allow feedback with caution. In general its unsatisfied customers who tend to use these facilities and that includes me

 

When booking holidays I always read negative feedback as well as good ones. I can think of our trip to Lake Como, the hotel was slaughtered, admitted it was 3 star and to an Italian style rather than the usual Northern European standard. We had the top level of all inclusive package, including the use of two lakeside restaurants and bar. What a super holiday we had !!

 

The feedback seems quite reasonable and as said be careful, I do see the business is both trading now and getting good feedback. Lets hope he/they are over their troubles. I plan to use this company but as always I will use my credit card or PayPal both of whom will protect my purchases, as they refund on non delivered claims

 

 

 

Via eBay I bought 2 items, a HR 4 wheel PBV and a HR Gordon Castle, both were etches only so were inexpensive. They arrived quickly and well packed. No messages or feedback from seller, but then as they were sent quickly there was no need for messages, and I am not worried about getting eBay feedback as a buyer. The cost was £10.50 much less than they are priced on the website, but missing a chassis !!  The coach fret was under £10 + postage.  No problems whatever with both purchases

 

I may try ordering something from his website, at worst I may have to reclaim my funds

[Artless Bodger]

On 06/07/2022 at 10:43, 2996 Victor said:

Quite delightful! I want one!!!

What a beautiful little engine! I'm not normally keen on MR stuff but I do like that. An ideal candidate for a new build for smaller preserved railways?

[kevinlms]

On 08/07/2022 at 04:57, hayfield said:

 

Well done for totally misrepresenting what I said

 

Same to you!

[hayfield]

On 07/07/2022 at 10:09, 2996 Victor said:

I emailed them at the weekend, also waiting for a reply, but not holding my breath after reading trustpilot reviews.....

 

On 07/07/2022 at 16:52, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

I asked numerous times about the "Spring Bargains" and the NLR Tank and carriage etchings over ten years ago without reply. The website hasn't been updated since then.

 

I think they are well gone I'm afraid.

 

 

Jason

 

Victor and Jason

 

As I said over the past month or so Kemilway (including Peter K) have been selling off some items. I bought an etched coach kit and an etched loco body kit, they arrived quickly, well packed and in first class order

 

I have had a couple of messages via eBay and he/they asked me to email them, which I did

 

Lo and behold after a month or so I got a nice short reply apologising for the delay which was caused by illness. Explaining whilst the Spring sale finished weeks/months ago its still on their website. Anyway I replied asking how to order and I may well if I don't get an answer soon phone the number listed on the website, if I pay via PayPal my money is protected

 

A few thoughts, I have a friend who has a model railway business and is a sole trader with no extra staff, there are issues running a business many of us never know about

I spent 29 years being a sole trader, its difficult when you work for yourself

 

In 2011 I re-established  contact with Chris Parish of Puffers/ Perseverance/Westward fame, I bought a couple of etched chassis from him, I wished I bought more whilst he was still trading. The moral is if you see something you want, buy it especially if you can protect your payment method

 

One last Item recently on eBay I bought 2 Kemilway GWR loco chassis (Mogul and Hall) assembled to P4 gauge, no motors or pickups and one without wheels. Both will be re-wheeled to EM gauge and have motors.

[hayfield]

I have just had a reply from my email to Kemilway this morning followed up by a pleasant phone call, Peter is now looking into what I was after and hopefully be sending me a payment request using PayPal (so your funds are protected

 

I asked peter if the Kemilway chassis are still available and he said yes, but his website has no details

 

This is the website

https://www.kemilway.com/index.html

 

I will keep all informed

[hayfield]

 

Thought I would show the Highland Railway PBV coach etches I recently bought, no instructions so most thinks are a self explanatory, but some bends seem to differ whether its into or away from the etch on the coach floor, also the rectangle additions to the solebars are interesting

 

I have found this and the coach is far better looking than I expected, 

http://petesnewworkshop.blogspot.com/p/wagons.html

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/528398968771738193/

 

 

A closer look of the sides and ends