Hornby R3984 LNER P2 'Earl Marischal' - with or without (ADDITIONAL) smoke deflectors?

[palmsticks]

Hello fine folks of RMWeb,

 

I know this is way, way into the future and none of it really matters etc, but does anybody know if the model of R3984 Earl Marischal is to be with or without the additional smoke deflectors?***

 

***= EDIT: Me from the future.  Answer = without*

 

See, the image on the Hornby website has been updated from a photograph of the real engine before it had the smoke deflectors added, to a nice side relief full colour representation of a model of the same thing. 

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-p2-class-2-8-2-2002-earl-marischal-era-3-r3984

 

However, in their engineshed blog and various other press releases, they have produced CAD artwork which shows the engine with the later smoke deflectors and have stated:

 

"Another feature that has been asked about is the secondary smoke deflectors as fitted to 2002 ‘Earl Marischal’ and yes, these have been tooled and will be added to that model. While we do not have a physical sample of that with us in Margate at the moment, I thought I would treat you to a CAD shot."

 

Thanks to:

Now, I believe that when the additional smoke deflectors were added on the real engine, the orginal wings either side of the smoke box were cut back by ~11ins and some upward inclining surfaces added at foot board level as seen in the (hopefully) attached pics.  (Google LNER Earl Marischal). Which means just adding the deflectors on their own is not quite correct.

 

The colouriseation of the CAD indicates to me that the Hornby design has the front and a section of the boiler casing as seperate parts to be able to cater for the different designs of P2 obviously those similar to the Belgium Class 1 pacifics or those with Bugatti noses. So I would imagine that they are planning to do both versions of "pre Bugatti-arised" Earl Marischal as well as be able to do an "A4 fever" version in the future too should enough demand arise. 

 

So can anybody clear up if:

1) it is intended that R3984 to be "as built" or "as modified"

2) and then a future (yet to be announced) release, which does the other version that didn't get done first.  This is my guess based on what happened with their LNER w1 10000 "Hush Hush" where the original engineering prototypes showed three versions of which two were grey: R3840 in original(ish) condition, R3841with "British Enterprise" with name plates and double Kychap exhaust which changed to single chimney to allow another model release R3979 without nameplates but double Kychap exhaust.  I.e. to maximise the number of models to utilise the tooling:

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/Hornby-receives-decorated-samples-of-w1-hush-hush-and-br-mk-1-rb-coa/

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/p2-or-not-p2-question <-- Scroll to W1 samples

 

Sorry for the long winded nature of this oh so important request for knowledge.  Also, sorry if this isn't in the correct place*.  I tried looking in the search for a P2 topic as I'm sure there was one but search in the forum would not return any results on just "P2" adding more words led me down the proverbial garden path.  Bit like this long rambling exposition of trivia really!

 

Anyway.  Would be nice to know.  Hoping that whatever version gets produced it brings pleasure to those that get to own one or see one running on a nice railway.

 

*EDIT: This is the main P2 2020-2023 (year, not loco number!) post I couldn't find to start with:

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by palmsticks
Missed a pic, add link to other post, answer

[Johan DC]

It looks like she will be 'as modified', (unfortunately for me). So for the moment I'll stick with Lord President, I think. 

Have you asked Hornby themselves? 

 

(PS Extra credit to you for mentioning the Class 1)

[Hilux5972]

Engine shed confirmed it will have the extra smoke deflectors 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Hilux5972

[AdamOrmorod]

I spoke to them by email aaaaaaages ago, and they confirmed it would have the deflectors.

[palmsticks]

On 06/08/2022 at 06:55, Johan DC said:

It looks like she will be 'as modified', (unfortunately for me). So for the moment I'll stick with Lord President, I think. 

Have you asked Hornby themselves?

Yes, I prefer the look of 2002 before modification, but it didn't work very well!  I wonder how may others think the same and would rather wish that Hornby produced a model of her like that (actually, like the one currently on the website)?  Why build a very nice decorated engineering prototype of the version they are not going to do? 🤔

 

 

On 06/08/2022 at 06:55, Johan DC said:

(PS Extra credit to you for mentioning the Class 1)

Thank you!

Although, I thought that the SNCB class 1 was before Cock O' the North but it seems it was built after. 

 

That blended wing effect borrowed from LNER W1 No.10000. I'm sure I read somewhere that OVS Bulleid was responsible for it...

 

Anyway, on reviewing the SNCB Class 1, stylistically it is closer to 2002 with addition smoke deflectors infront of the blended wings which start at the front of the smokebox...

 

[Johan DC]

Second picture, as well as being a very beautiful one, has a British link: It shows the Type 1 coming into Ostend, to stop next to the Dover-Ostend packet boats.

Half a century later, I would take the same traject (now electric) to go to from Ghent to London with my father, take the nightferry and onwards to London Victoria (I think) to see the Royal Tournament in Earl's Court.

Fond memories, but don't ask which trains we took at Dover Western Docks. 🤔😀

 

[JSpencer]

On facebook, I saw a post that the first run would be without. I can well believe that those buying her would need to know definitely which one it is! Otherwise there will be a heavy disappointment, return rate.

[Johan DC]

Pff, I don't know it anymore... First I wanted without, after the above posts about SNCB Class 01,  I want 2002 with...

Would make a nice contrast with 2001. Probably it'll come in a next batch with 2004 and 2006?

I have 2003, 2005 and 2007 on pre-order, so time to contemplate (and save!) to decide if I want with or without.

 

Bloody Hornby! 😁

 

 

[Rshakes3]

So I`m very happy to have the original 2002 without the additional deflectors  - I also have 2002, 2003 &2007  on pre order - looking forward to all of them!

[palmsticks]

On 01/08/2023 at 09:20, Johan DC said:

Pff, I don't know it anymore... First I wanted without, after the above posts about SNCB Class 01,  I want 2002 with...

Would make a nice contrast with 2001. Probably it'll come in a next batch with 2004 and 2006?

I have 2003, 2005 and 2007 on pre-order, so time to contemplate (and save!) to decide if I want with or without.

 

Bloody Hornby! 😁

 

 

The choice of a locomotive is very personal and of course totally subjective. 

 

If, R3984 LNER P2 'Earl Marischal' 2002 is modelled in "as built" condition, then it will reflect the original 1933-34 design team's design intent.  Obviously, 2001 and 2002 had a very specific purpose and were at a juncture of ideas at the time with experience from the A3 boiler, the W1 casing, Chapelon's internal streamlining and reduced exhaust back pressure, they looked bold and exciting - which the LNER exploited in the engineering press at the time - perhaps a statement of what the future could be like beyond 1934... but before the A4 changed all that.

  

If the (probably a future) model has the smoke deflector mods for dealing with the smoke clearance visibility, then in this state, the locomotive prototype is visually interesting but those additional deflectors are somewhat incongruous with the rest of the machine – I think it is the position of the nameplates being a bit low.  But 2002 did run for a bit longer with them then without them.

 

I thought i'd have a look at the time line (see attached) for when the main stylistic changes occurred which may have an influence as to what is approriate modelling wise:

 

According to Yeadon's, 2001 went "into traffic" 22/05/1934 and 2002 followed her in 06/10/1934. 2001 was based out of Doncaster and undertook trials, tuning up and fiddling around with the blast pipe (and Kychap petticoats one wonders?), until going into "revenue earning service" January 1935 going to Haymarket 09/06/1935, and then Dundee 22/06/1935.  The poor visibility from smoke clearance was an issue with 2002 once the exhaust system and usual valve gear cut off characteristics had been sorted - and as a result of wind tunnel tests, the additional smoke deflectors + other mods were designed and fitted by 17/04/1935, before she went to Haymarket.

 

Of course, the other P2s with their Bugatti mania wedge front casings (but the same exhaust system as 2002) starting coming out from June 1936, and so 2002 went back to Doncaster 07/08/1936 to receive a facelift to match 2003-6, exiting Doncaster 14/10/1936.  Not sure when it stopped being green but rebuilt to an A2 1944.

 

So in broad brush strokes leaving out detail external changes like cab cut outs and tablet exchange gear:

• 2002 was in "as built" condition for 5 months being shedded in England (surely it ran in Scotland in this condition?)
• She then ran with the smoke clearing aid modifications for 16 months shedded in Scotland returning to Doncaster every now and again until...
• the powers that be felt that it was necessary to get 2002 into the same style as other P2s in which physical state she lasted 7.5 years ish - although not sure when she went black.

 

Also, it seems that 2002 had a run of bad luck:

• Aside from the muckings about with the casing for smoke clearance (smoke deflectors)
• Shortly after she was ordered, she was cancelled, only to be re ordered later
• Her originally allocated tender was instead paired off with an A3 so had to make do with a different tender intended for an A3, so ended up with a different style tender tank
• She was involved in a derailment at Kings Cross which resulted in a redesign to the front pony truck to allow for more movement which was applied to the rest of the class
• While diagnosing the above at Doncaster it was found that one of her main driving wheelset axles was bent.  During this investigation, being shunted around a tight curve, the assisting locomotive derailed. 
• While the mono block casting was a triumph of engineering and foundry art, the streamlining and passage ways weren’t generous enough which hampered the locomotive’s performance.

This is naturally all par for the course for a prototype.

 

Anyway, I hope lucky owners who take the plunge will be delighted to have an RTR P2 – it looks to be a lovely model, and until the other version is made, it might not happen*. 

*EDIT: meant to add: even though there is a change in people at Hornby, I still think they will probably do more versions of the P2 in the future - obvs may depend on how many of this batch left over.  As    @JSpencer  and @gary_lner and others have pointed out there are postings of facebook that is the plan.

We shall see.

 

Some interesting info here:

https://www.a1steam.com/educational-resources/prince-of-wales/no-2002-earl-marischal  (incident with KX, pony truck and bent axle)

Yeadon's Register Volume 9: https://rail-books.co.uk/products/yeadons-register-of-lner-locomotives-volume-9-classes-o1-o2-p1-p2-and-u1-9781899624072

I'm sure these is stuff in the Gresley Observer, but I have no idea where mine are.  Also RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 6B https://archive.rcts.org.uk/locomotives-of-the-lner/

 

Some nice pics in these if you come across them:

https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/issue/View/issue/RM201312/december-2013

https://www.railmags.org/brill2000/8621-brill-2000-september.html

This Malcome Roote painting: https://www.railart.co.uk/gallery/root.shtml

 

BTW, SNCB Class 1, there is also this Trix model but I think the Hornby offering will be way better value:

https://www.trix.de/en/products/details/article/25480

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by palmsticks
refs and opinion

[palmsticks]

Question: Hornby R3984 LNER P2 'Earl Marischal' - with or without (additional) smoke deflectors

Answer: Without (As already reported elsewhere)

Case closed. 

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks to those who have posted images of the variety of P2 currently delivered. My 2005 Collectors Club version was ordered on 03/04/2023 at £179 . There is no indication of its imminent arrival. The website now shows it as awaiting delivery but at £199. Is there any member in a similar position or any who might be able to throw a little light on this ? Will contact H by phone / email later.  

[Johan DC]

18 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Thanks to those who have posted images of the variety of P2 currently delivered. My 2005 Collectors Club version was ordered on 03/04/2023 at £179 . There is no indication of its imminent arrival. The website now shows it as awaiting delivery but at £199. Is there any member in a similar position or any who might be able to throw a little light on this ? Will contact H by phone / email later.  

Mine is currently in a depot in Belgium, hope to see it in the flesh tomorrow. Left Margate (or wherever they're handled) on thursday. I ordered it the day after it was announced, back in march. If I'm not mistaken, it was always £199. Correct me if I'm wrong. I paid in €, so maybe I messed up there. 

[Ian Hargrave]

31 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Mine is currently in a depot in Belgium, hope to see it in the flesh tomorrow. Left Margate (or wherever they're handled) on thursday. I ordered it the day after it was announced, back in march. If I'm not mistaken, it was always £199. Correct me if I'm wrong. I paid in €, so maybe I messed up there. 

 Thanks for this.I’ve checked my account page on Hornby’s website. My pre order price is &179.99. Order status is “pending “. 

[Ian Hargrave]

A phone call has now settled the matter. A simple problem which was a change in my cc details . Protestations that emails had been sent and phone calls advising me .  Neither had occurred ..a complete fairy story. The transactions were made by phone just …at the pre order figure of £179.99. Heigh Ho….the way of the world I suppose.

 

[Johan DC]

Maybe I should also call, this was in the original mail: 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Yes I’ve been alerted to the fact that the price on my account included the club 10% discount. Strange that it is advertised as a club membership only edition.

[Johan DC]

22 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Yes I’ve been alerted to the fact that the price on my account included the club 10% discount. Strange that it is advertised as a club membership only edition.

I became a club member just to be able to buy this one, so I should have the 'discount' in points. But nothing till now....

[Johan DC]

7 hours ago, Johan DC said:

I became a club member just to be able to buy this one, so I should have the 'discount' in points. But nothing till now....

To whom it may concern, pre-2023 Club members had the 10% discount, new ones have 15% in points. However, these become only active 21 days after your purchase. 

Many thanks @Ian Hargrave and Suzanne from Hornby Customercare for the info. 

Now, where is the steamgenerator version of Highland Chieftain Prince of Wales? 🤔😁

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

To whom it may concern, pre-2023 Club members had the 10% discount, new ones have 15% in points. However, these become only active 21 days after your purchase. 

Many thanks @Ian Hargrave and Suzanne from Hornby Customercare for the info. 

Now, where is the steamgenerator version of Highland Chieftain Prince of Wales? 🤔😁

I hope matters resolve to your satisfaction and Hornby oblige with good models