GER W&U Train Packs

[Edwardian]

35 minutes ago, Ronny said:

 

 

It would be very helpful if you could list your references. Thank you.

 

 

 

You see, that's what happens in a post-Trump, post-Johnson world, nobody trusts anything anyone says these days!

 

Aside from the aspects evidenced in the photographs referred to, was there any particular statement you'd like me to evidence?

 

EDIT: Not trying to sound snarky, it's just that I'm not writing a book here, so it would be helpful to identify any specific area of doubt for you.  Livery changes in broad terms are dealt with in Digby's volume, but I do not think they are controversial, and it's readily accessible.  Was that what you wanted to check or was there any particular detail?

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Edwardian

[E100]

On 28/08/2022 at 08:54, E100 said:

Any indication on the release date for these?

 

Just wondered if @rapidoandy had any idea?

[rapidoandy]

Hello,

 

Not at present. We are awaiting the samples for the W&U tramcars and at that point we may be able to set an orderbook deadline prior to production. It's likely to be around this time next year at a guess.

[E100]

9 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Hello,

 

Not at present. We are awaiting the samples for the W&U tramcars and at that point we may be able to set an orderbook deadline prior to production. It's likely to be around this time next year at a guess.

 

@rapidoandy - thanks that's useful 

[Dungrange]

On 29/08/2022 at 18:01, Tramshed said:

Although as Rapido Andy points out, they were mainly for goods work, the RCTS volume states that two engines were sufficient to manage this work once the passenger service was withdrawn in 1927. So the surmise that they were used for passenger work seems to be supported by this evidence.

 

Excuse my ignorance of the pre-grouping period (I'm primarily interested in post-privatisation), but if the C53 (J70) was mainly for goods work, what was usually employed on the passenger services?  I'm assuming that this would be the very similar looking G15 (Y6) class?

 

I note that at https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y6.php it states "Eventually, this increasing traffic required more powerful locomotives, and in 1903 the similarly looking J70 trams entered service ".  Was there therefore a distinction between goods and passenger locomotives on the line, or was it simply that the C53 class were allocated the heavier trains and the lighter services were handled by the G15 class?  Presumably the heaviest trains were the goods trains, hence most of these were presumably handled by the G53 class leaving the G15s for lighter duties.

 

Two questions -

What period does the pre-1919 teak and ultramarine set represent?; and

What other stock is available to accompany this set - apart from the Oxford Rail 10T van?

[Jammy2305]

18 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

Excuse my ignorance of the pre-grouping period (I'm primarily interested in post-privatisation), but if the C53 (J70) was mainly for goods work, what was usually employed on the passenger services?  I'm assuming that this would be the very similar looking G15 (Y6) class?

 

I note that at https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y6.php it states "Eventually, this increasing traffic required more powerful locomotives, and in 1903 the similarly looking J70 trams entered service ".  Was there therefore a distinction between goods and passenger locomotives on the line, or was it simply that the C53 class were allocated the heavier trains and the lighter services were handled by the G15 class?  Presumably the heaviest trains were the goods trains, hence most of these were presumably handled by the G53 class leaving the G15s for lighter duties.

 

Two questions -

What period does the pre-1919 teak and ultramarine set represent?; and

What other stock is available to accompany this set - apart from the Oxford Rail 10T van?

 

In answer to your two questions:

 

1) I cheekily want to give the answer of "pre-1919", but essentially the pack will represent the period between 1914 and 1919 (as No.127 was built in 1914). The coaches themselves can represent the W&U for a longer span of time, however, as there was little if no change to the carriage livery during these vehicles existence pre-1919.

 

2) In ready-to-run? Nothing, bar the Oxford 10T van, of course! Kit wise, the Dapol Mac-K kit is based on a BR prototype for which the design originated with the GER (the major visual difference being the direction of the floor planking). Bill Bedford also does some very nice GER Dia.15 van kits that are well worth a go (although I have had mixed experiences when trying to purchase anything from him...). 

[Jammy2305]

18 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

Excuse my ignorance of the pre-grouping period (I'm primarily interested in post-privatisation), but if the C53 (J70) was mainly for goods work, what was usually employed on the passenger services?  I'm assuming that this would be the very similar looking G15 (Y6) class?

 

I note that at https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y6.php it states "Eventually, this increasing traffic required more powerful locomotives, and in 1903 the similarly looking J70 trams entered service ".  Was there therefore a distinction between goods and passenger locomotives on the line, or was it simply that the C53 class were allocated the heavier trains and the lighter services were handled by the G15 class?  Presumably the heaviest trains were the goods trains, hence most of these were presumably handled by the G53 class leaving the G15s for lighter duties.

 

Two questions -

What period does the pre-1919 teak and ultramarine set represent?; and

What other stock is available to accompany this set - apart from the Oxford Rail 10T van?

 

And yes, the G15's were primarily used for passenger services on the line, with the C53's taking on the heavier freight work after their introduction.

[E100]

See some renders on the internet but not of the 'blue and wood' pack loco. Can't wait to see this!

[adanapress]

I wonder if they will make a khaki with big white star liveried one, as per the US Army operated one?

[GeoffBird]

On 23/09/2022 at 10:44, Jammy2305 said:

 

In answer to your two questions:

 

1) I cheekily want to give the answer of "pre-1919", but essentially the pack will represent the period between 1914 and 1919 (as No.127 was built in 1914). The coaches themselves can represent the W&U for a longer span of time, however, as there was little if no change to the carriage livery during these vehicles existence pre-1919.

 

2) In ready-to-run? Nothing, bar the Oxford 10T van, of course! Kit wise, the Dapol Mac-K kit is based on a BR prototype for which the design originated with the GER (the major visual difference being the direction of the floor planking). Bill Bedford also does some very nice GER Dia.15 van kits that are well worth a go (although I have had mixed experiences when trying to purchase anything from him...). 

 

 

I have contacted a very helpful person at the GER society about the liklihood of crimson stock on the W&U and is answer was - 

 

"What is said about the adoption of a crimson lake livery is correct from 1919, as is the use of steel panels on new carriage stock.

 

How much stock received crimson lake before 1 January 1923 is unknown but during the 3 1/2 years probably well over a half. Have in mind also that existing paint stocks would have been used thus prolonging the use of crimson period into Grouping by perhaps a year or more. It is known that at least one bogie tramcar was repainted in crimson. My suggestion is that if you are keen to adopt crimson for you models there are unlikely to be anyone out there to contradict you!"

[Dungrange]

On 06/02/2023 at 11:11, GeoffBird said:

It is known that at least one bogie tramcar was repainted in crimson.

 

This implies that there is a possibility that only one of the two coaches in the crimson lake pack received crimson lake livery. Is it known when that bogie tramcar was actually repainted (or perhaps by what date it was first known to carry the livery)?

 

Also, are details known as to when each of the locomotives were painted crimson lake?  I'm interested to know if it would have been likely to see a crimson lake locomotive haul a train of teak coaches, or similarly for a brown and blue loco to haul crimson lake coaches.

 

Finally, would I be correct to assume that number 125 in the Crimson lake pack represents the condition that it was in between circa 1919 and 1921 (as after that date, it would have carried its number on the skirts)?

[E100]

Just wondered if there was an updated eta on these or if one could be put in the next newsletter (I have checked the recent newsletters). I presumed they would follow quite closely behind the Titfield packs due to the same tooling being required but would have expected to hear something as those are getting close now.

[RapidoCorbs]

In the paint shop at the moment.....

[E100]

43 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

In the paint shop at the moment.....

 

Oh nice one and thanks for the reply! Can't wait to see them...

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, RapidoCorbs said:

In the paint shop at the moment.....

What colour are the buffers to be on the pre-1919 pack?  The only pre-production artwork I've seen from Rapido shows these as red, but everything I've read suggests they were blue when they entered service. I'm aware of a photograph in Yeardon's which quite clearly shows that the buffers are in a different colour from the skirts, but I suspect the photograph dates from the post-war period and the buffers have been painted grey, but not the full skirts, which are still in the pre-war livery.

[RapidoCorbs]

21 hours ago, Dungrange said:

What colour are the buffers to be on the pre-1919 pack?  The only pre-production artwork I've seen from Rapido shows these as red, but everything I've read suggests they were blue when they entered service. I'm aware of a photograph in Yeardon's which quite clearly shows that the buffers are in a different colour from the skirts, but I suspect the photograph dates from the post-war period and the buffers have been painted grey, but not the full skirts, which are still in the pre-war livery.

On the final artwork they are blue with a vermilion stripe and black ends.

[Pint of Adnams]

On 06/02/2023 at 11:11, GeoffBird said:

 

 

I have contacted a very helpful person at the GER society about the liklihood of crimson stock on the W&U and is answer was - 

 

"What is said about the adoption of a crimson lake livery is correct from 1919, as is the use of steel panels on new carriage stock.

 

How much stock received crimson lake before 1 January 1923 is unknown but during the 3 1/2 years probably well over a half. Have in mind also that existing paint stocks would have been used thus prolonging the use of crimson period into Grouping by perhaps a year or more. It is known that at least one bogie tramcar was repainted in crimson. My suggestion is that if you are keen to adopt crimson for you models there are unlikely to be anyone out there to contradict you!"

Actually I think that you will find that it was the use of steel panelling on new coaching stock that prompted the change to crimson paint; the use of steel being to reduce the risk of fire whilst incandescent gas lighting was still in use. Certain carriages were given trial finishes, including Carriage Brown and Crimson Lake, to compare with the varnished finish.

 

The reasons are more complex but the Director's were not against it, so AJ Hill rapidly put the livery change into effect. See John Watling's article in BRJ11, which suggests that 352 carriages were newly constructed from 1915 and together with most if not all of the existing stock finished in Crimson Lake before the LNER reverted the livery to varnished teak.

 

One further point is the addition of the GER armorial device, which was applied only to main line stock having 1st class accommodation, and Royal Mail vehicles. As such, only the W&U Composite would qualify and only then if considered to be main line.

 

Edit: the contemporary photograph on the Rapido website confirms that the armorial device was applied to Car No. 7, the Composite.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Pint of Adnams

[Edwardian]

23 hours ago, Pint of Adnams said:

Actually I think that you will find that it was the use of steel panelling on new coaching stock that prompted the change to crimson paint; the use of steel being to reduce the risk of fire whilst incandescent gas lighting was still in use. Certain carriages were given trial finishes, including Carriage Brown and Crimson Lake, to compare with the varnished finish.

 

The reasons are more complex but the Director's were not against it, so AJ Hill rapidly put the livery change into effect. See John Watling's article in BRJ11, which suggests that 352 carriages were newly constructed from 1915 and together with most if not all of the existing stock finished in Crimson Lake before the LNER reverted the livery to varnished teak.

 

One further point is the addition of the GER armorial device, which was applied only to main line stock having 1st class accommodation, and Royal Mail vehicles. As such, only the W&U Composite would qualify and only then if considered to be main line.

 

Edit: the contemporary photograph on the Rapido website confirms that the armorial device was applied to Car No. 7, the Composite.

 

 

There are one or two ways in which the W&UT carriage stock differed from GER standard practice. 

[Jammy2305]

For anyone who hasn't seen, Rapido have released decorated samples:

 

 

 

- James

[GeoffBird]

2 hours ago, Jammy2305 said:

For anyone who hasn't seen, Rapido have released decorated samples:

 

 

 

- James

 

I seem to remember that about 6 m,onths ago Hattons said they were going to relase the GER brake coach that was used on the line with the W&U coaches.  I ordered one but cant remember what the Part No. was.   Anyway, they all seem to have been "Sold Out on Preorder"-  There was also a GER van produced a year ago that would help to add a bit of "mixed train" formation.

[Pint of Adnams]

23 hours ago, GeoffBird said:

 

I seem to remember that about 6 m,onths ago Hattons said they were going to relase the GER brake coach that was used on the line with the W&U coaches.  I ordered one but cant remember what the Part No. was.   Anyway, they all seem to have been "Sold Out on Preorder"-  There was also a GER van produced a year ago that would help to add a bit of "mixed train" formation.

The Hattons product is one of several versions of their generic 'Genesis' range, this time finished in Stratford Brown livery. Hornby have announced similar products but not yet in a suitable GE or LNER livery. The goods van is the Oxford Rail product.

[SweenyTod1]

I have built two types of kit, one in white metal ( Ks) and one etched brass ( D&S). The latter is the Y6 Tram Loco, the WM kit is the J70, although powered by a Tenshodo bogie. I also have two more Ks kits in the pipeline. I've had them some 30-40 years with the intention to build a layout for them, purely goods as no suitable r-t-r or kits for coaches were available, as far as I knew.

Born and bred in Cambridgeshire, I remember seeing them trundling alongside the road and across the ungated crossings. Latterly of course, it was diesel powered, but still was a site to see, with long trains of fruit vans wandering across the road! It certainly tested the patience of the road users at the time!!

If it will be of help to those not familiar with the W&UT, there are two very informative books that tells you all about this system and its infrastructure:-

The Wisbech and Upwell Tramway Centenary Album by Andrew C Ingram, Becknell Books, ISBN 0 907087 20 5

Branch Line to Upwell by Vic Mitchell, Keith Smith and Andrew C Ingram, Middleton Press, ISBN 1 873793 642

I have both of these books in my extensive library and surprisingly to some, two other locos were tried on the system. The Y10 double cab loco and the Y1, which didn't have side skirts. Needless to say really, the J70 and 04 were best motive power to shift the loads required. Quaint yes, but they did a great job and were very entertaining for this young budding railway modeller.

Tod

[Dungrange]

2 hours ago, SweenyTod1 said:

If it will be of help to those not familiar with the W&UT, there are two very informative books that tells you all about this system and its infrastructure:-

The Wisbech and Upwell Tramway Centenary Album by Andrew C Ingram, Becknell Books, ISBN 0 907087 20 5

Branch Line to Upwell by Vic Mitchell, Keith Smith and Andrew C Ingram, Middleton Press, ISBN 1 873793 642

 

I bought the first of these, but wouldn't have said it was that informative.  It's got a lot of pictures (102), but not much text.  A far more informative book is

The Wisbech and Upwell Tramway by Peter Pay, The Oakwood Press, ISBN 978 0 85361 689 4. 

I've not read your second suggestion, so can't comment on it.

[Pint of Adnams]

There's also The Wisbech & Upwell Tramway, Chris Hawkins & George Reeve, Wild Swan 1982, ISBN 0 907087 20 5. The publisher notes that the Centenary Album mentioned above and this book are complementary.

[NHY 581]

There's a lovely book on the W&U Tramway from 1965 by E J S Gadsden, C F D Whetmath and J Stafford-Baker. My copy is a 1972 reprint. 

 

Excellent little book with a rather nice chapter by the Rev W Awdry. 

 

Rob. 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by NHY 581
Detail, detail, detail.