Identifying old cars from their registration numbers

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, cessna152towser said:

They also travelled further afield.   I recall a girlfriend when I lived in the Glasgow area whose dad's company car was an Austin 1800 or Maxi with the registration POO...D.   Its replacement was a Vauxhall, PYL...F and I recall her saying that her dad's car used to be POO and now its PILL.

 

Or Piles!

[stewartingram]

Q letters were used to identify vehicles previously registered abroad but now re-registered in the UK. Also used for say ex-Army vehicles now civilian registered.

[RANGERS]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Correct

Alexander Dennis are mainly a body builder, often using a Volvo chassis.

 

That’s not quite the case, the vast majority of ADL diesel bus output is based on home sourced E200 and E400 chassis. I believe there’s is still availability on Scania and Volvo but typically it’ll only account for a relatively small proportion of total numbers, the rest being a split of in-house Enviro or Chinese sourced BYD.

 

The Plaxton coach range is much slimmest down nowadays but is exclusively Volvo based.

[andyman7]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

The "New Bus for London" (the Borismaster!) had a new block of non date based registrations issued in Northern Ireland

LTZ1001 - LTZ1900 for fleet numbers LT1 - LT900 and LTZ 2101 - LTZ 2200 for fleet numbers LT901 -1000.

Quite why they couldn't make the two blocks consecutive, one wonders.

 

12 early buses had been allocated London regs but were changed

LT1-12 indeed carried those London registrations and were later re-registered. I have a picture somewhere of my first journey on one when it still carried its London reg.

Edited August 27, 2022 by andyman7
Spelling

[John M Upton]

There used to be a time that all London buses wore London issued registration numbers and the odd one (usually ex demonstrators or oddball batches bought from elsewhere like ex Greater Manchester MCW Metrobuses) which had a non London number stood out like a sore thumb.

 

Now, there are a lot of Scottish and Preston registrations running around, the two locations of Alexander Dennis's main factories as it happens whilst Wright buses often have Birmingham ones as that is where the importer/dealer has their office.

[Wheatley]

9 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

It was common practice to allocate numbers in blocks to new car showrooms as well as bus operators. 

 

First time in years that my dad bought a new car rather than a pre-registered or good second hand one:

 

"So Mr Wheatley's dad, what reg number would you like ?" (Presents list)

"How old's your mother ?"

"43"

"B43 BCP please"

 

She was furious. 

[Halvarras]

42 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Q letters were used to identify vehicles previously registered abroad but now re-registered in the UK. Also used for say ex-Army vehicles now civilian registered.

 

The 'Q' suffix was also used on kit cars where the original year of registration of the vehicles donating their running gear could not be determined.

 

It is now illegal to use a registration which is newer than the vehicle itself, but prior to the start of year identifier prefixes in August 1983 this was not the case - in 1981 I bought a Vauxhall Chevette which had originally been registered in Jersey on 1st July 1977 (on a 'Jxxxxx' plate) and had then moved to mainland UK and been re-registered in Plymouth presumably between 1/8/79 and 31/7/80 as it received a 'V' suffix whereas it should have been a very late 'R'! Its recessed headlamps gave it away as genuine 'V' Chevettes had flush ones - it was no mistake as such details could be used to identify other such 'pretenders' pre-1983!

 

In Cornwall I grew up with AF, CV & RL (joined by GL in 1974 when relinquished by Bath in a regional boundary shake-up). Unlike the current registrations where the first letter denotes a geographical region (and the second letter the issuing VRO within that region), these old identifiers appear to have been issued completely at random. The Western National buses I went to school on were all registered in Devon (DV, TA, TT & UO).

 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, RANGERS said:

That’s not quite the case, the vast majority of ADL diesel bus output is based on home sourced E200 and E400 chassis.

 

The Plaxton coach range is much slimmest down nowadays but is exclusively Volvo based.

Your "Wright" of course.🙂

It's Wrights that usually have Volvo chassis, I was getting the manufacturers mixed up.

ADL have been using their own chassis for a long time, going back 20 years they were using their Trident 2 chassis for ALX400 DD buses

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, andyman7 said:

LT1-12 indeed carried those London registrations and were later re-registered. I have a picture somewhere of my first journey on one when it still carried its London reg.

Not quite

LT1-8, 10-12 & LT16

Here's LT1:

 

 

There's also one odd one in the main mix, ST812, (rather than LT812) a shortie of 10.3m amongst all the LTs

 

 

 

[EddieK]

10 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

 

Another variation on a theme.  In 1968 London Transport were introducing AEC Merlins en masse but having difficulty actually implementing schemes.  A large number were numbered in the series SMM---F and I remember seeing a load at Hanwell stored with F reg's.  By the time the Ealing routes were introduced Nov68 'G' regs were current so the buses were replated as they hadn't actually entered service and became VLW---G like MB160 seen here in 1975 after transfer (banishment?) to the Country area.  Note: this is an MB, the Ealing routes E1,E2, E3 had MBS types but I don't have a pic of a re-registered one. 

The higher numbered Merlins that LT had were also subject to number plate changes; some intended to be VLWxxxG did not enter service until after 1st August 1969 so emerged as AMLxxxH where xxx matched the fleet number. On the other hand, some of the last batch of 50 single door Merlins entered service in July 1969, mainly on route 297 at Alperton, and I believe these were to have been registered in the AMLxxxH series, but the need to get them into service before 1st August saw a batch of registrations in the WMTxxxG series reserved. Full details on the website "Ian's Bus Stop".....

[EddieK]

The re-allocation of the regional identifiers on the pre 1983 (and subsequent pre 2001) plates didn't half confuse me. My late father had a car in the 1960s registered in Hertfordshire with xxxNJH, then his next car was also registered in Hertfordshire in the NJHxxxH series.Subsequently, the JH regional letters were assigned to Berkshire.

A much later car that my late father bought was also registered in Hertfordshire as FxxxKVS, when the "VS" identifier had been a Scottish one previously.

[Bucoops]

2 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

The 'Q' suffix was also used on kit cars where the original year of registration of the vehicles donating their running gear could not be determined.

 

It is now illegal to use a registration which is newer than the vehicle itself, but prior to the start of year identifier prefixes in August 1983 this was not the case - in 1981 I bought a Vauxhall Chevette which had originally been registered in Jersey on 1st July 1977 (on a 'Jxxxxx' plate) and had then moved to mainland UK and been re-registered in Plymouth presumably between 1/8/79 and 31/7/80 as it received a 'V' suffix whereas it should have been a very late 'R'! Its recessed headlamps gave it away as genuine 'V' Chevettes had flush ones - it was no mistake as such details could be used to identify other such 'pretenders' pre-1983!

 

In Cornwall I grew up with AF, CV & RL (joined by GL in 1974 when relinquished by Bath in a regional boundary shake-up). Unlike the current registrations where the first letter denotes a geographical region (and the second letter the issuing VRO within that region), these old identifiers appear to have been issued completely at random. The Western National buses I went to school on were all registered in Devon (DV, TA, TT & UO).

 

 

Snap - the other Morris Minor we had was a K reg - but was originally a Jersey J plate (hire car). It should have been a GB J plate if the current rules were in force then.

 

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, EddieK said:

The re-allocation of the regional identifiers on the pre 1983 (and subsequent pre 2001) plates didn't half confuse me. My late father had a car in the 1960s registered in Hertfordshire with xxxNJH, then his next car was also registered in Hertfordshire in the NJHxxxH series.Subsequently, the JH regional letters were assigned to Berkshire.

A much later car that my late father bought was also registered in Hertfordshire as FxxxKVS, when the "VS" identifier had been a Scottish one previously.

A lot changed in 1964 and again in 1974.

 

I had a car HXCxxxL which was registered in Solihull in 1973.

XC was London until 1964, then became Solihull until 1974, when it was discontinued.

[uax6]

11 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

The 'Q' suffix was also used on kit cars where the original year of registration of the vehicles donating their running gear could not be determined.

 

It is now illegal to use a registration which is newer than the vehicle itself, but prior to the start of year identifier prefixes in August 1983 this was not the case - in 1981 I bought a Vauxhall Chevette which had originally been registered in Jersey on 1st July 1977 (on a 'Jxxxxx' plate) and had then moved to mainland UK and been re-registered in Plymouth presumably between 1/8/79 and 31/7/80 as it received a 'V' suffix whereas it should have been a very late 'R'! Its recessed headlamps gave it away as genuine 'V' Chevettes had flush ones - it was no mistake as such details could be used to identify other such 'pretenders' pre-1983!

 

I think the official designation of Q plates was (is?) 'for vehicles of uncertain history'.

 

My brothers first car, which was given to him by an Aunt, was a three door Chevette L in maroon, with tartan seats. Its registration was HKX 341V, and it certainly still had the recessed headlamps, I can remember taking out the shrouds and re-spraying then silver...

 

The GPO also had block reg numbers, as I guess all Civil Service fleets did. For years they were in the GPO, PGO, OPG and OGP blocks, but upon formation of the Post Office Corporation and Post Office Telephones in 1969 the official blocks went and vehicles were often re-reg'd with London regs.

 

Andy G

[Rivercider]

23 hours ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

The chassis may have been built by one company and body work undertaken by another company. 

 

I have memories of seeing chassis ( I assume Leyland), being driven down the motorway with the driver in a large coat wearing goggles, surrounded by a plywood crate. Bristol City Council at one time ensured it's (i.e. Bristol City Fire Brigade),  fire appliances had the numbers "999" in the registration.

I know that Bristol Omnibus naturally bought Bristol buses, but that most of them were bodied by Eastern Coach Works (were they in Lowestoft?), so the chassis made a long trip east from Bristol to meet the bodies. They all had Bristol registration marks when they entered service,

 

cheers

[w124bob]

On 27/08/2022 at 19:15, stewartingram said:

Q letters were used to identify vehicles previously registered abroad but now re-registered in the UK. Also used for say ex-Army vehicles now civilian registered.

Not quite correct Q plates were issued where the age of the vehicle could not be varified, some kit cars not using a VIN from a donor for instance. Ex MOD with a Q plate would have a similar reason. Imported vehicles of ordinary marques are easy to age for plate purposes(and VED, ULEZ etc). The MRJ issue is 146 the article also covers BR, som bus fleets and Royal Mail fleet iusses, 9 pages but one double spread picture. One interesting side note is cars in TV, some production companies had access to non issue plates. The Sweeney for instance every time they wrecked an old S type Jag, the car would carry one of the fake plates. I've seen Rover P6 V8's police cars in episodes at diffent times with either the same plate or consecutive number.

Edited August 28, 2022 by w124bob

[Nick Holliday]

On 27/08/2022 at 19:15, stewartingram said:

Q letters were used to identify vehicles previously registered abroad but now re-registered in the UK. Also used for say ex-Army vehicles now civilian registered.

I’m not sure how this works, but my father, when posted by the British Council to Greece for four years, back in the early sixties, bought his first car, a Ford Anglia, which was registered in the UK, YGY 379, but I think somehow he avoided paying certain taxes, as he was taking it abroad within a short period, driving it overland to Brindisi. When he drove it back to the UK for a brief visit after a couple of years, he was issued with a Q registration, QH 2420, which he had to relinquish when he returned to Greece, and the same thing occurred a couple of years later, with a different Q plate, QK something. When he finally returned to the UK after six years, he was able to keep the first, YGY, registration.

[John M Upton]

3 hours ago, w124bob said:

 One interesting side note is cars in TV, some production companies had access to non issue plates. The Sweeney for instance every time they wrecked an old S type Jag, the car would carry one of the fake plates. I've seen Rover P6 V8's police cars in episodes at different times with either the same plate or consecutive number.

 

Apparently a fair few of thiose Mk2 Jags were wrecked several times over, patched back together, given a quick respray and another reg number and off they went again.  The letters on some 1960's and 1970's number plates were removable so you could move them around on the plate.

 

The Sweeny's set of Ford's all came from the Ford UK Press Publicity pool and so had similar registrations with a couple of them becoming well known regulars but the same series reg numbers also turned up on demonstrators up and down the land.  The classic Consul Granada NHK 295M is still going, it even had a stunt double for a couple of episodes!!!

Edited August 28, 2022 by John M Upton

[melmerby]

47 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Granada NHK 295M

Taxed until Aug 23 but no MOT

[John M Upton]

Should be MOT exempt on account of age (daft UK Government idea which means old unsafe junk amateurishly welded by a bloke in a shed can now legally be driven on the road with no checks whatsoever but as Ben Elton said, a little bit of politics creeping in there...)

 

NHK 295M had a complete very expensive restoration though. I do wonder if they preserved the 1970's nicotine stains though...

[The Lurker]

On 27/08/2022 at 16:29, LMS2968 said:

With the original system, and the one we're most likely to come across historically, the LAST two letters of the (usually) three digit number denoted the area / issuing authority. My first car had a two letter number (273  KB) while my father had several cars but one was KTD 181. KB was a Liverpool registration (these were KA, KB, KC, KD, KF and LV. The council apparently did a deal with Kent and KE went there in exchange for LV!). TD was a Leigh, Lancashire number so that car hadn't come a long way into my dad's possession. The first  letter varied as all permutations were used up, when the next chosen letter would be used, not following in alphabetical order. It also varied as to which way around the numbers / letters were arranged, either 123 ABC or WXY 789 (Z and I [the letter] were strictly Irish; Q was for special use, say a recovery vehicle, although these usually ran on trade plates anyway).

LV is now one of the Sidcup identifiers: I had a car that was LV09…

 

and although the post office has officially dropped counties from addresses, Sidcup was, postally, in Kent even though it has been part of London since 1965.

 

 

[KeithHC]

Quite often cars used in tv films in the uk where allocated false numbers in conjunction with DVLA hence you would see a lot of Swansea registration. 
 

Keith

ps is there any chance we could see the original photo that started the thread

[Halvarras]

12 hours ago, The Lurker said:

LV is now one of the Sidcup identifiers: I had a car that was LV09…....Sidcup was, postally, in Kent even though it has been part of London since 1965.

 

 

 

That explains LV09 - L = London, V = from a range of letters identifying the issuing VRO. 

I worked for a vehicle importer/distributor for 34 years and my role from 1987- 2002 made me the company's SMMT rep during the years they had to firstly resolve the single August peak and secondly come up with a new system to replace one which was now even more rapidly running out of year prefix letters! 

The main problem with the August peak was that dealers were having to order large numbers of vehicles in a short time, then get them all prepared in the peak holiday season when staff, especially those with children, wanted to (had to) book holidays. By the mid-1990s 1st August had become a burden the industry (including the DVLA) could no longer tolerate - the solution, after a period of discussion, was to split the single peak into two, six months apart and avoiding holiday seasons, hence 1st March and 1st September (the latter still not ideal but moving them back a month would have dragged in Easter). 

Vehicles registered from 1st March 2001 should have been the first to use the new system as 01s, but Y from the old system remained unused and for whatever reason - perhaps the new system was not quite ready - that was used instead, the new system kicking off with 51 on 1st September. The use of 02-49 for March and 51-99 for September initially confused the general public (and some have probably still not got their heads around it!) but it worked for the industry and that was what mattered.

This is somewhat OT but for the general interest of those not already aware, the first letter of the current registrations system is a geographical identifier:

 

A = Anglia

B = Birmingham

C = Cymru (Wales)

D = Deeside

E = Essex

F = Forest & Fens

G = Garden of England

H = Hampshire (including Isle of Wight)

K = Luton - because.......

L = London

M = Manchester & Merseyside

N = North of England

O = Oxford

P = Preston

R = Reading

S = Scotland

V = Severn Valley

W = West of England

Y = York

I, Q, U & Z are not used - J & T can be used for personalised registrations (not sure about X). Presumably the compilers were unable to come up with a geographical identifier for poor old Luton, robbed of L by London, using  J or T without it appearing even more contrived than some of the above already are!

 

The second letter identifies the issuing VRO, e.g. for West of England:

WA - WJ = Exeter

WK - WL = Truro

WM - WX = Bristol

I, Q & Z not used for VROs.

 

The last three letters are generated alphabetically from AAA to ZZZ excluding I & Q - certain combinations are reserved for the DVLA to flog, or banned for various reasons! 

 

Northern Ireland registrations were not affected by any of this and continue to use three letters (excluding only Q) and numbers 1-9999.

 

Apologies if this is off-topic but one day these new registrations will be on old cars! It was pointed out by the SMMT at introduction that this new system would expire in 2049 (as if we couldn't work that out for ourselves) which seemed such a long way off at the time.........it's a sobering thought that we're nearly halfway through the sequence, which makes me feel as old as I am 🥴

 

[Tom Burnham]

Kent Archives have some very early registration records - up to about the early 1920s at least - as handwritten ledgers. Other county records offices may well have similar for their own areas 

[Johann Marsbar]

1 hour ago, Tom Burnham said:

Kent Archives have some very early registration records - up to about the early 1920s at least - as handwritten ledgers. Other county records offices may well have similar for their own areas 

Suffolk Records Office certainly have the Ipswich County Borough Issue books for DX & PV which took you up to 1950 when three letter combinations came in. They were located in the Ipswich office when I was doing research about 35 years ago into Ipswich Co-Op vehicles.  Other Suffolk area books were said to be held in the Bury offices.

I tried to locate the records from ADX 1/APV 1 onwards and was told at the time that they were "supposed" to survive somewhere, but nobody seemed to know who actually had them !