Identifying old cars from their registration numbers

[Phil R]

On 27/08/2022 at 11:21, John M Upton said:

...and anything 'DL' was the Isle of Wight for some unfathomable reason.

 

Bus company's, the big ones at least used to send a clerk to the local DVLA Office (or whatever it was called then) to book a block of registrations for a new batch of buses sometimes before they were even ordered.

 

In many cases this was to ensure that they got registrations numbers that matched the intended fleetnumbers.

 

With the closure of many local offices, the new current letters based system of registrations and the general mixing up which has rendered regional identifiers effectively pointless now, this practice has largely ceased.

Interesting. I imagine the same happened with the county council in Derbyshire, where the fire service had over a dozen appliances with 999 in their registrations in the 80s. My limited understanding is that single, double and identical treble number combinations were kept back in later years. 

Elsewhere, DDC 1, originally a Middlesbrough plate has been carried by at least 4 fire appliances since the 1950s, and currently adorns their command unit, whilst West Yorkshire's carries the prestige WY1.

[doilum]

The suffix was originally introduced because the expodential growth of new vehicles led to the licensing offices running out of numbers to allocate. Having already exhausted the option of reversing the letters and numbers the A suffix was introduced in January 1963. At first this was only to be used when they ran out of numbers but became universal in 1965 with C reg. The licensing authorities and motor trade noticed a spike in registrations are the start of the new year and in 1967, after some consultation, agreed to move the date of the change to August 1st. Thus the E reg only ran for 7 months.

In this day of company cars and leasing it is perhaps difficult to appreciate the kudos of having a brand new car on August 1st. There were some amazing deals to be done in July as dealers cleared their showrooms of demonstrators and pre registered vehicles. Even second hand bargains were to be had in anticipation of the flood of trade ins.

Edited September 4, 2022 by doilum

[John M Upton]

Some offices did issue for a short time reversed single letter  and double letter no suffix numbers such as #### A and #### AA.  I cannot recall if these were before or after various variations of three letters and three numbers i.e. ABC ### and ### ABC.

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

Some offices did issue for a short time reversed single letter  and double letter no suffix numbers such as #### A and #### AA.  I cannot recall if these were before or after various variations of three letters and three numbers i.e. ABC ### and ### ABC.

Some did indeed - in the case of Smethwick, they issued #### HA. There were over 500 Midland Red buses registered in this way between late 1961 and mid 1964, of types S15, S16, S17, LS18, D9, D10 and DD11. The fleet numbers involved were 4944 to 5378, and 5446-5545. They were followed (in Midland Red bus form), by AHA ###B in the latter part of 1964. I suspect the registrations had been reserved at the beginning of the period they were available and the last three numbers in the registration matched the last three numbers of the fleet numbers (eg 4944 - 1944 HA. 2nd prototype D10 underfloor engined double decker; 4945-5044 2945-3044 HA - 2nd batch of D9 double deckers). 
 

Several of these are still in existence and some fully restored and operational at the Wythall and Aldridge Transport Museums, and in private ownership.  

Edited September 3, 2022 by MidlandRed

[whart57]

City of Canterbury (an independent licensing authority until local government re-organisation in 1974) did the same, using up its xxxx FN and xxxx JG allocations before starting year lettering with a B suffix in 1964. The East Kent had a couple of dozen AEC Regent Vs and a similar number of Reliance coaches with xxxx FN plates. The first of these were delivered in 1962, as were the last of a batch of Regent Vs with YJG plates. The A-suffix came in in 1963 but Canterbury - not a large authority after all - clearly had enough numbers left to leave adopting the new scheme to the following year. In fact Canterbury never issued any three letter plates with the letters last such as xxx AFN.

 

As I mentioned before, East Kent didn't paint fleet numbers on their buses, the fleet number was the number on the registration plate. Which is why bus enthusiasts refer to EK bus classes as WFNs or KFNs as much as the chassis type. Or some Reliances as the Tiffins (TFN) and the East Kent's rather unique full fronted AEC Regent Vs with a sliding door as the Puffins (PFN).

Edited September 4, 2022 by whart57

[John M Upton]

Brighton LVO were very late adopters of the year suffix plates, the earliest year suffix plates I have ever seen were C reg ones, the BUF-C series was used on the batch of Southdown 'Queen Mary' Leyland PD3's whereas the immediately previous batch were the well know 400 to 424 DCD batch in 1963/1964.

 

I have never seen or heard of any Brighton marks (UF, CD, NJ plus a few others) used in conjunction with A or B suffixes.

Edited September 4, 2022 by John M Upton

[doilum]

9 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Brighton LVO were very late adopters of the year suffix plates, the earliest year suffix plates I have ever seen were C reg ones, the BUF-C series was used on the batch of Southdown 'Queen Mary' Leyland PD3's whereas the immediately previous batch were the well know 400 to 424 DCD batch in 1963/1964.

 

I have never seen or heard of any Brighton marks (UF, CD, NJ plus a few others) used in conjunction with A or B suffixes.

Probably because they already had sufficient numbers with over four pair of letters. Wakefield were an early adopter as they only had HL to play with. I may be corrected but I don't recall an A or B on any of the Leeds or West Riding combinations.

[whart57]

It would appear that the year letter was optional for the first two years but then made compulsory in 1965 with year letter C.

 

You do have to wonder though how a system evolved that had authorities like Middlesex running out of numbers in 1962 but others, like Canterbury, still having something like 40,000 spare. In 1962 Canterbury had only got to where Middlesex had been in 1952.

Edited September 5, 2022 by whart57

[Jim Martin]

Obviously, this topic has generated lots of replies, and I'm very grateful to everyone who's provided information. Several people have asked if I could post the actual photograph: I do intend to, but unfortunately the whole batch has been put in A Safe Place. When I find where that is, I'll do something about posting it.

 

Jim

[Wheatley]

Barnsley (HE) very sensibly allocated itself THE 1 for the mayor's limousine, which it carries to this day. Rather more controversially, much later they  purchased THE 2 for the spare, in the middle of a round of service cuts due to being poll-tax-capped, trying to convince everyone it was an investment ..

[BernardTPM]

Perhaps THE 12 might have been better (The One Too).

[Bucoops]

Essex County Council owned F1 from when it was allocated. Thy sold it a few years back for arguably well under its value.

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

Barnsley (HE) very sensibly allocated itself THE 1 for the mayor's limousine, which it carries to this day. Rather more controversially, much later they  purchased THE 2 for the spare, in the middle of a round of service cuts due to being poll-tax-capped, trying to convince everyone it was an investment ..

 

The light green Ford Corsair my dad bought in 1968 - 6450 HE - must have migrated from there to Cornwall then. I have no idea of the time span of this 'nnnn xx' plate format and often wondered if the plate was much older than the car - has it always been possible to transfer registration marks in this way?

[Wheatley]

On a more railway-related theme, when I was working in Cumbria in the early 90s 'A15GLL' was a regular sight amongst the parked photographers' cars along the Kirkby Stephen - Ais Gill stretch. It was on a silver estate I think. 

[whart57]

2 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

The light green Ford Corsair my dad bought in 1968 - 6450 HE - must have migrated from there to Cornwall then. I have no idea of the time span of this 'nnnn xx' plate format and often wondered if the plate was much older than the car - has it always been possible to transfer registration marks in this way?

 

It certainly was. The late Sir Gerald Nabarro MP famously had eight cars in the mid 1960s registered NAB 1 through to NAB 8 and he transferred those numbers when he changed his cars

 

As for that Ford Corsair, they went into production in 1963 when it was quite possible that a smaller authority like Barnsley was still issuing numberplates in the xxxx HE format.

[ardbealach]

I recall back in the day the Lord Provost's limousine in the  City of Glasgow had the registration G0.  It seems the owner of G1 refused to sell their plate to the corporation. (Alisdair)

[stewartingram]

When I started work at Pye in Cambridge, they had a car with a registration PYE1. Presumably the car for the head poncho, whatever he might have been called. I can't remember what car it was; in fact I saw the reg. no. a few times on other cars later (even though Pye had become part of Philips). I wonder what car the plates are on now?

[Moxy]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

When I started work at Pye in Cambridge, they had a car with a registration PYE1. Presumably the car for the head poncho, whatever he might have been called. I can't remember what car it was; in fact I saw the reg. no. a few times on other cars later (even though Pye had become part of Philips). I wonder what car the plates are on now?

 

According to the DVLA, that reg no. is now on a 2016 Land Rover.

[adb968008]

On 27/08/2022 at 14:35, 2E Sub Shed said:

The chassis may have been built by one company and body work undertaken by another company. 

 

I have memories of seeing chassis ( I assume Leyland), being driven down the motorway with the driver in a large coat wearing goggles, surrounded by a plywood crate.

 

On another note, older colleagues used to tell me that Bristol City Council at one time ensured it's (i.e. Bristol City Fire Brigade),  fire appliances had the numbers "999" in the registration.

I used to see loads of Leyland Atlantean bus chassis like that going to Northern Counties of Wigan for bodying.

 

 

[doilum]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I used to see loads of Leyland Atlantean bus chassis like that going to Northern Counties of Wigan for bodying.

 

 

That was the easy run. Some of their colleagues had to take them all the way to Washwood Heath with trade plates flapping in the wind.

[adb968008]

Theres a picture of one such chassis run here

 

https://www.wiganworld.co.uk/album/photo.php?opt=3&id=3454&gallery=Northern+Counties+Bus+Builders&page=1

[John M Upton]

Some chassis went by rail...

https://flic.kr/p/4je5SN

 

Would make an interesting model.

[Forward!]

Before 1965 vehicle registration was the responsibility of the County Councils. So once you've identified the regional code of licence number it's worth checking with the relevant County Record Office (Local Authority Archive Service) whether they hold the original registers/card indexes. Survivability is patchy- it depends entirely on whether the councils kept the records once they relinquished the responsibility. Many just binned them.

 

Will

[slilley]

Couple of things, do we know what the make and model of the car is, as it maybe possible to trace its details through either the British Motor Museum at Gaydon, or if not through any records the relevant Owners Club might have.

 

On the question of consecutive numbers,I have a 1975 MGB GT Jubilee, its a limited edition MGB produced to celebrate 50 years of MG. Only 751 were made. I know of another MGB GT Jubilee with the next sequential number in its registration. I am ***145* and this other car is ***146*. We have managed to get both side by side before now.

 

Simon

[37114]

On 27/08/2022 at 19:59, RANGERS said:

That’s not quite the case, the vast majority of ADL diesel bus output is based on home sourced E200 and E400 chassis. I believe there’s is still availability on Scania and Volvo but typically it’ll only account for a relatively small proportion of total numbers, the rest being a split of in-house Enviro or Chinese sourced BYD.

 

The Plaxton coach range is much slimmest down nowadays but is exclusively Volvo based.

Correct.  ADL build over 2 plants, Falkirk built buses reg start "S", while Scarborough built bus regs start "Y". BYD head office is in London hence why their registrations start "L" as BUD register the chassis even though the body maybe built in Scarborough and the finished bus may go nowhere near London. 

 

On 27/08/2022 at 23:25, melmerby said:

Your "Wright" of course.🙂

It's Wrights that usually have Volvo chassis, I was getting the manufacturers mixed up.

ADL have been using their own chassis for a long time, going back 20 years they were using their Trident 2 chassis for ALX400 DD buses

 Wright's are now integral only, and if you want a Volvo chassis then it is only really MCV that body them now  Volvo appear to have stopped selling Diesel chassis other than  coaches in the UK. Apparently ADL are due to body a batch of Scania Gas chassis for Nottingham later this year which will be the last ones produced.