Identifying old cars from their registration numbers

[Kingstoke Junction]

On 07/09/2022 at 23:39, doilum said:

That was the easy run. Some of their colleagues had to take them all the way to Washwood Heath with trade plates flapping in the wind.

As a kid in the late 60s & while walking to primary school, I recall regularly seeing chassis from the Bristol Commercial Vehicles factory heading off to Lowestoft - usually it was a convoy of 2 or 3. All the drivers had for protection was a couple of sheets of plywood on a run of about 250 miles. I presume that it was REs that I saw although some might have been VRs. Anyone know of any photos of these moves or even what route they took.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, 37114 said:

Correct.  ADL build over 2 plants, Falkirk built buses reg start "S", while Scarborough built bus regs start "Y". BYD head office is in London hence why their registrations start "L" as BUD register the chassis even though the body maybe built in Scarborough and the finished bus may go nowhere near London. 

 

 

I wonder why the change of registration place?

The NXWM ADL fleet was mostly registered in Birmingham (B) until about 2015/6 when all the newer buses have been S, L & Y

 

2 hours ago, 37114 said:

 Wright's are now integral only, and if you want a Volvo chassis then it is only really MCV that body them now  Volvo appear to have stopped selling Diesel chassis other than  coaches in the UK. Apparently ADL are due to body a batch of Scania Gas chassis for Nottingham later this year which will be the last ones produced.

The NXWM Wrights were supplied on a Volvo chassis until about 2016 when they became all Wright's manufacture.

 

NXWM had a ADL biogas bus on loan for a while (DD18 GAS, in promotional livery) but it seems it is now part of Nottingham's fleet.

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by melmerby

[Bucoops]

3 hours ago, slilley said:

On the question of consecutive numbers,I have a 1975 MGB GT Jubilee, its a limited edition MGB produced to celebrate 50 years of MG. Only 751 were made. I know of another MGB GT Jubilee with the next sequential number in its registration. I am ***145* and this other car is ***146*. We have managed to get both side by side before now.

 

Simon

 

I own a classic Saab - only 1002 built for the UK market I think. My reg is *** 161T and it is currently residing in Bristol awaiting restoration, One of the chaps' spares donors is *** 160T.

 

Oh for a lottery win so I can get both tip-top!

[RANGERS]

57 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I wonder why the change of registration place?

The NXWM ADL fleet was mostly registered in Birmingham (B) until about 2015/6 when all the newer buses have been S, L & Y

 

The change would have occurred around 2012-3 when the Local Vehicle Licensing Offices (VLO) closed and all registration went on line. Prior to that, the operators would be sent the V55 from the chassis manufacturer and would take the completed form to the VLO to register them. They would be allocated a local plate to the office they registered at and in the days of three numbers on plates, could request reg numbers that matched fleet numbers, and if the VLO clerk was amenable, they’d issue them with a batch of V53 stickers, which had the numbers on, and would then be stuck to the V55 on registration.

 

If vehicles were factory registered, ADL/ Plaxton output from Scarborough  would be registered at Beverley or Sheffield (where their dealership is based). It was rare for Falkirk built vehicles to be factory registered though as both First and Stagecoach were based in Scotland, it was commonplace for them to have plates issued in Scotland.

 

After the VLOs closed, operator registration became almost impossible as only dealers and manufacturers have access to the on-line system. Following this, virtually all ADL output was registered from the place of final build, Falkirk or Scarborough, with the numbers having prefix letters that would previously have been allocated to Edinburgh (Falkirk built vehicles) or Beverley (Scarborough build).

 

 

[ejstubbs]

On 02/09/2022 at 17:33, Halvarras said:

Such 'bravery', including the use of incorrect fonts, risks flashy blue lights in the rear view mirror

 

From casual observation of the way that owners of vehicles carrying non-compliant registration plates seem to persist in doing so without any apparent sanctions being applied*, I suspect the probability of being pulled over is rather lower than that of being allocated a registration plate carrying one's own initials by chance.  Especially given the fact that traffic patrols have largely disappeared.  I suspect it's more likely to be one of those things that gets picked up if you get pulled for a minor moving traffic offence (though that seems to be vanishingly unlikely these days as well).

 

On 02/09/2022 at 17:33, Halvarras said:

no doubt such 'brave' souls had a normal set of reflective plates at home which got briefly attached once a year

 

Is the registration plate checked as part of the MoT?  In my distant youth I did used to swap the rather, ahem, "under-sized" plate on my bike when it was getting MoTed, but one year I forgot and nothing was said - didn't even come up as an advisory.  Maybe they've tightened up the rules since then.

 

* Myself included 😯 see immediately above.

[St Enodoc]

On 04/09/2022 at 09:27, MidlandRed said:

Some did indeed - in the case of Smethwick, they issued #### HA. There were over 500 Midland Red buses registered in this way between late 1961 and mid 1964, of types S15, S16, S17, LS18, D9, D10 and DD11. The fleet numbers involved were 4944 to 5378, and 5446-5545. They were followed (in Midland Red bus form), by AHA ###B in the latter part of 1964. I suspect the registrations had been reserved at the beginning of the period they were available and the last three numbers in the registration matched the last three numbers of the fleet numbers (eg 4944 - 1944 HA. 2nd prototype D10 underfloor engined double decker; 4945-5044 2945-3044 HA - 2nd batch of D9 double deckers). 
 

Several of these are still in existence and some fully restored and operational at the Wythall and Aldridge Transport Museums, and in private ownership.  

My first car (actually a colleague and I owned half each), registered in 1960 I think.

 

 

My Dad also owned 7662 KO, a Triumph 2000, in the late 1960s.

 

Dad, my brother and Mum on our way to home from  Cornwall for after our summer holiday.

Edited September 11, 2022 by St Enodoc
Checked sequence of other photos!

[Enterprisingwestern]

7 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

My first car (actually a colleague and I owned half each), registered in 1960 I think.

 

 

My Dad also owned 7662 KO, a Triumph 2000, in the late 1960s.

 

Dad, my brother and Mum on our way to Cornwall for our summer holiday.

 

Ah, the pre motorway days of a journey over 150 miles, a break for a picnic!

In the days of my youth Tenby was the holiday resort of choice, works weeks of course, what with picnicing, letting the car have a rest, traffic jams due to no bypasses etc etc, it was a 12 hour journey from Sheffield on a good day, don't think we ever made evening meal in the b & b, but the landlady always saw us well suppered.

 

Mike.

[37114]

On 02/09/2022 at 22:41, John M Upton said:

And yet London Transport were for some reason allowed to continue taking new buses with white on black plates into the 1980's.  I always wondered how they got away with that exemption, especially as there were just white painted numbers with no reflective ability at all.

 

EDIT - Example from my collection, 1982 vintage Leyland Titan (TN Series):

 

 

It wasn't unique exemption to London, there was some bizarre quirk in the legislation that a bus could be fitted with White on Black plates until sometime in the mid 90s I recall but only London bothered.

[2996 Victor]

On 26/08/2022 at 20:17, Jim Martin said:

I've been given a set of old photographs which are allegedly of my ancestors. One of them clearly shows a car and I was hoping that it might be possible to date the photos from the car. Is there any way of identifying an old car from its registration? I was wondering if there's a database of such things.

 

It's a saloon, registration NOH975 or possibly NUH975.

 

Jim

Perhaps if you posted a copy of the photograph with the car, the make and model could be identified and could narrow the search period?

 

Cheers,

Mark 

[Covkid]

On 04/09/2022 at 00:27, MidlandRed said:

Some did indeed - in the case of Smethwick, they issued #### HA. There were over 500 Midland Red buses registered in this way between late 1961 and mid 1964, of types S15, S16, S17, LS18, D9, D10 and DD11. The fleet numbers involved were 4944 to 5378, and 5446-5545. They were followed (in Midland Red bus form), by AHA ###B in the latter part of 1964. I suspect the registrations had been reserved at the beginning of the period they were available and the last three numbers in the registration matched the last three numbers of the fleet numbers (eg 4944 - 1944 HA. 2nd prototype D10 underfloor engined double decker; 4945-5044 2945-3044 HA - 2nd batch of D9 double deckers). 
 

Several of these are still in existence and some fully restored and operational at the Wythall and Aldridge Transport Museums, and in private ownership.  

Hadn't realised Midland Red did this.

 I moved to Walsall in 1980 and quickly learnt that the bus registration and fleet number matched in nearly all cases. This continued when the MCW metrobuses started making inroads int othe older fleets. So BOK25V would translate to 2025 - because Metrobuses were 2xxx fleet numbers. There were a few odd ones were there was I think and SDA700S and a WDA700T.  One was 6700 and the other was 7000 as the final West Midlands fleetline.  

[Covkid]

Incidently, my dad purchased a Co-op surplus Morris LD van in 1970.  It had had its lovely old Coop livery slathered over with grey undercoat, and he eventually hand painted it in LMS crimson Lake, but its reg was 7457RW which I believe was a Warwickshire registration.   

[whart57]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

Hadn't realised Midland Red did this.

 I moved to Walsall in 1980 and quickly learnt that the bus registration and fleet number matched in nearly all cases. This continued when the MCW metrobuses started making inroads int othe older fleets. So BOK25V would translate to 2025 - because Metrobuses were 2xxx fleet numbers. There were a few odd ones were there was I think and SDA700S and a WDA700T.  One was 6700 and the other was 7000 as the final West Midlands fleetline.  

 

East Kent didn't even bother with fleet numbers, the fleet number was the number on the registration plate. It helped that their fleet size was big enough to have buses in batches of 20 or so but not so large that it was over a thousand. But if a batch all had the same registration letter then that ended up being an enthusiast's mnemonic, like this "puffin"

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by whart57

[Halvarras]

3 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

From casual observation of the way that owners of vehicles carrying non-compliant registration plates seem to persist in doing so without any apparent sanctions being applied*, I suspect the probability of being pulled over is rather lower than that of being allocated a registration plate carrying one's own initials by chance.  Especially given the fact that traffic patrols have largely disappeared.  I suspect it's more likely to be one of those things that gets picked up if you get pulled for a minor moving traffic offence (though that seems to be vanishingly unlikely these days as well).

 

 

Is the registration plate checked as part of the MoT?  In my distant youth I did used to swap the rather, ahem, "under-sized" plate on my bike when it was getting MoTed, but one year I forgot and nothing was said - didn't even come up as an advisory.  Maybe they've tightened up the rules since then.

 

* Myself included 😯 see immediately above.

 

I have to agree with your first point, and I'm not entirely sure about your second, the MOT question, I just thought it was a risk not worth taking if one wanted what we all want, a new MOT without even a single advisory. I use the past tense because TBH these days one very rarely sees illegal fonts - either the rules have been enforced (the new clampdown announced when the current plate format arrived in 2001 being taken seriously for once) or such public displays of individuality have simply fallen out of fashion.

[whart57]

46 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

TBH these days one very rarely sees illegal fonts - either the rules have been enforced (the new clampdown announced when the current plate format arrived in 2001 being taken seriously for once) or such public displays of individuality have simply fallen out of fashion.

 

I suspect the increasing use of ANPR has much to do with it.

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Covkid said:

There were a few odd ones were there was I think and SDA700S and a WDA700T.  One was 6700 and the other was 7000 as the final West Midlands fleetline.  

I wonder whether 7000 was a homage to the first ever Fleetline built: 7000HP, which was part of BCT's fleet for 14 months but then went back to Daimler as a demonstrator and then on to other places such as Derby.

It was delivered new in full BCT livery and was to have been registered 3229VP (and presumably fleet number 3229?) but Daimler urged BCT to keep the 7000HP reg as they wanted back as a demonstrator. Unfortunately this pioneer bus ended it's life destroyed in a fire, as did the very last built Fleetline.☹️

It is rumoured that the fact that BCT allowed Daimler to have the bus back as a demonstrator, got them a very special deal on their first order of production Fleetlines

 

Around the same time they acquired a Leyland Atlantean 460MTE which did get a fleet number: 3230 and it stayed in the fleet until withdrawn in 1978.

Another demonstrator that BCT did buy was 9JML (fleet number 3228) a rear entrance Bridgemaster, which lasted just under 12 years in Birmingham's fleet

 

A demonstrator that was going to become part of BCT's fleet was 2211MK (fleet number 3229), the first forward entrance AEC Bridgemaster built. but it was passed on after less than 2 years in Birmingham.

 

 

[2251]

On 02/09/2022 at 22:41, John M Upton said:

And yet London Transport were for some reason allowed to continue taking new buses with white on black plates into the 1980's.  I always wondered how they got away with that exemption, especially as there were just white painted numbers with no reflective ability at all.

 

EDIT - Example from my collection, 1982 vintage Leyland Titan (TN Series):

 

 

The exemption was not specific to London Transport.

 

The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1972, which introduced the requirement for retro-reflective plates in the case of vehicles registered on or after 1 January 1973, excluded vehicles “wholly or mainly used as a stage carriage within the meaning of section 117 of the Road Traffic Act 1960”.

[Hippel]

That explains why Ripponden Motors (a haulier) used old style plates for so long.

 

Paul

[MidlandRed]

9 hours ago, Covkid said:

Hadn't realised Midland Red did this.

 I moved to Walsall in 1980 and quickly learnt that the bus registration and fleet number matched in nearly all cases. This continued when the MCW metrobuses started making inroads int othe older fleets. So BOK25V would translate to 2025 - because Metrobuses were 2xxx fleet numbers. There were a few odd ones were there was I think and SDA700S and a WDA700T.  One was 6700 and the other was 7000 as the final West Midlands fleetline.  

Not quite!! 7000 was intended to be the last Fleetline - the last of a final batch of 135 with Metro Cammell bodies, ordered by WMPTE before moving to Metrobuses - and it was allocated to Walsall from new at the end of 1978/beginning of 1979. The last Fleetline delivered to WMPTE was 6690 (WDA 690T), the final bus in a batch comprising 6571-6690, and bodied by Park Royal. Park Royal took an eternity to build these buses, the first appearing at P reg - in fact as a result of their reluctance to build them, WMPTE removed 6691-6720 from the order and transferred them to Metro Cammell - who built them a year before Park Royal built their last!! 
 

WMPTE was no stranger to recalcitrant bus builders - the batch of Bristol VRs 4343-4442 spanned L to P registration and it was rumoured Met Cammell had bodies pre built awaiting the incredibly slow delivery of chassis from Bristol!! The slow or late delivery of vehicles was one of the reasons some 1950 built ex BCT Guy Arabs lasted till 1977 (though they were extremely robust vehicles, which with some attention, could achieve short term MOT COFs to enable them to provide a stop gap - they were also far better than some of the newer stock inherited from Walsall and Wolverhampton with somewhat cheaper bodywork spec….). 
 

RW was a Coventry registration, along with HP and VC, Covkid!

 

The early return of the initial Fleetline 7000 HP (chassis 60000) by BCT to Daimler was said to have resulted in extremely favourable terms for the prototype BCT batch, 3241-3250 (241 DOC etc chassis numbers 60004-60013 - thus the 4th to 13th chassis built), in 1962.

 

The ongoing use of white on black reg numbers (and the exemption which LT, more or less uniquely,  took advantage of) was almost certainly rooted in the unique maintenance regime operated by LT for their bespoke vehicle types (ending with the Routemaster class - last vehicle delivered being in 1968 - RM 2760) whereby they split bodies from chassis for overhaul on receipt at Aldenham and the overhauled units being put back together on completion - often with different body/chassis/engine from what they arrived as - however they repainted the reg plates in-house - how they squared this with chassis number/ registration documents etc etc is something I’ve never understood - presumably there was a whole team of people keeping track of this in LT and arranging the licensing. As a result buses up to the early 80s continued to have the white on black number plates (although the buses received did not get overhauled generally as RMs and RTs etc which were bespoke London type buses). The requirement for such rigorous Ministry testing (called Certificate of Fitness) was replaced with a far less onerous regime in the mid 80s - Aldenham closed and London reverted to a regime more akin to every other bus fleet in the country - with the exception they retained some level of crew operation and a much reduced fleet of RMs. 

Interestingly, Travel West Midlands continued the practice of matching fleet number to reg number, getting around the non availability of 1-20 numbers by giving Metrobuses 3001-3020 regs F301 XOF, changing to F21 XOF at 3021. Their batch of 40 Scanias, 3201-3250!!!, H201 LOM etc simply omitted both fleet number and registration where the registration was reserved for cherished use (10 being affected)! No such shenanigans after the 2001 (51 reg) system started. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by MidlandRed

[doilum]

7 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

I suspect the increasing use of ANPR has much to do with it.

Or the risk that if pulled over the second sentence from the officer is"I think I just caught a whiff of cannabis. If you would just care to blow............." 

[MidlandRed]

13 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

From casual observation of the way that owners of vehicles carrying non-compliant registration plates seem to persist in doing so without any apparent sanctions being applied*, I suspect the probability of being pulled over is rather lower than that of being allocated a registration plate carrying one's own initials by chance.  Especially given the fact that traffic patrols have largely disappeared.  I suspect it's more likely to be one of those things that gets picked up if you get pulled for a minor moving traffic offence (though that seems to be vanishingly unlikely these days as well).

 

 

Is the registration plate checked as part of the MoT?  In my distant youth I did used to swap the rather, ahem, "under-sized" plate on my bike when it was getting MoTed, but one year I forgot and nothing was said - didn't even come up as an advisory.  Maybe they've tightened up the rules since then.

 

* Myself included 😯 see immediately above.

I suspect the reason is an illegally spaced or font on a registration number can incur a notice similar to that received for other maintenance issues observed on a vehicle whereby the vehicle has to be presented within a set period for inspection by the Police as ‘corrected’ - failure to comply or subsequent transgressions presumably result in the vehicle being impounded. Also, the provider of the illegal registration plates, presuming they’re a legitimate provider, can incur a penalty, if not lose their ability to provide plates at all. 
 

Whilst it is correct that Roads Police are rather thin on the ground, suffering from the same funding and staffing issues as other parts of the Police and other public services, once ‘in the system’ then the extensive network of ANPR cameras can identify a ‘suspect’ vehicle and alert those Police that are around to enable them to target offenders - along with any other offences which may occur. Well that’s the theory!! 

Edited September 10, 2022 by MidlandRed

[whart57]

The increasing use of ANPR in car parks (our local Sainsbury for example) and toll roads like the Dartford Crossing presumably makes it a personal nuisance to have unreadable plates 

[MidlandRed]

4 hours ago, whart57 said:

The increasing use of ANPR in car parks (our local Sainsbury for example) and toll roads like the Dartford Crossing presumably makes it a personal nuisance to have unreadable plates 

The use of unreadable plates (to both ANPR and safety cameras) is slightly different from incorrect spacing and fonts - you do occasionally see these, where the background or lettering are in a material to make them unreadable - however this is more to do with criminality rather than personal vanity with reg plates!! Indeed it seems some people remove their front plate and place it on their dashboard, also making it unreadable to ANPR and particularly safety cameras. 
 

There is a network of Police ANPR cameras at the main entries to most towns and between junctions on major routes, particularly motorways. 

[whart57]

The nature of criminality has changed though. The reason people had those plates with italic lettering in the past was a belief - accurate or otherwise - that the speed cameras of the time couldn't accurately record the number plate in order to issue fines and dock licenses.

 

Now people obscure number plates to avoid flagging up their vehicle is neither taxed nor insured - easily checked with the DVLA computers these days - or to obscure their movements for nefarious reasons.

 

Another reason for the disappearance of incorrect fonts and bad spacing is that you can't just go into Halfords and buy a blank plate and stick-on lettering any more. When I wanted an extra plate to stick on the back of a cycle rack I had to take in the log book to a registered outlet who then made up the plate.

[Bucoops]

My Saab has its front numberplate in such a position that no speed camera can see it. One MOT person tried to fail it. Er, nope, original location. Mind you this was the same person who tried to fail it with no handbrake - works on the front wheels on these 😆

[ejstubbs]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

When I wanted an extra plate to stick on the back of a cycle rack I had to take in the log book to a registered outlet who then made up the plate.

 

I was surprised, when I bought a towball mounted cycle carrier from Halfords which required a registration plate, they did not ask for any verification of the vehicle id or ownership.  This was in 2018 when AFAIK the 'new' rules had already been in force for quite some time.