Is there demand for scale models larger than HO

[mdvle]

(note - by scale models I mean the prototypically accurate highly detailed items that have become the norm in HO and OO)

 

A couple of comments that seem unrelated brought some thoughts and I didn't want to disturb the 40 years of photos topic.

 

The first, by myself, was about needing a new well funded operation to shake up the American market.  The second post, by @F-UnitMad, was about a hope for items in O scale...

 

I think there is an untapped market for something larger than HO.  The additional internal space for speakers/batteries plus the advantages of being physically bigger would seem to be attractive and the movements around less is more (see: Lance Mindheim and others) combined with many in the US having larger spaces would seem to play well into something larger than HO.

 

The problem of course is 3-rail and its dominance, which scares at least one manufacturer from considering it.  It is also worth noting how Atlas seems to be tending towards 3-rail O going forward though the jury might still be out on that.

 

I think the more likely option would be S - American Flyer stuff is a dwindling market at this point unlike Lionel and the ex-MTH now Atlas O stuff and thus poses less of an issue to an attempt at moving towards a more scale market.  The wild-card with S is ScaleTrains and what their thinking/plans are regarding their MTH purchase longer term.

 

But at the end of the day the biggest problem isn't Lionel or American Flyer but the lack of serious competition in the US market.  There isn't that hunger/need to create new opportunities the way Heljan did with RTR 7mm/O or the new attempt at TT:120.  At the current rate of progress the Athearn/Rapido/ScaleTrains probably have 5+ years before they run out of mainstream Alco/GE/EMD stuff to do.

 

So the result is we aren't seeing anyone make a serious push into S or O - or even for that matter a serious push into smaller bookshelf friendly switching layout locos like the current industrial boom in the UK market.  Because why take the risk.  US outline modellers are worse off as a result.

 

Hence my comment about the need for someone like an Accurascale to shake things up.

 

[brossard]

Hmmm, I have wondered why there is no (or is that little) 2 rail 0 gauge in North America.  Wandering around some exhibits at an exhibition at Exporail (a local and very good railway museum) a couple of weeks ago, I did notice several trainsets of 3 rail 0 gauge (I wouldn't call them layouts).  One of the chaps came down to look at my British 2 rail 0 gauge layout and seemed nonplussed about the missing third rail.

 

I can't say much because it is not something I have studied, but I am intrigued about the topic.

 

John

[PaulRhB]

There isn’t the small loco advantage that we have may be one issue. Many here can fit in a Terrier and three or four wagons in a bookshelf type space but with bogie boxcars and mostly Bo Bo diesels and or 2-6-0’s or bigger being road locos maybe the size precludes the micro market that make O here more feasible? The Hattons pacifics didn’t exactly set the O gauge world on fire compared to the 08’s and Terriers. 
Maybe Bachmann’s On30 filled the O scale niche in a small footprint and that hasn’t seen much innovation since Lee Riley passed. 

[meil]

There is Proto48 - https://www.proto48.org/

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Interesting question.  I’m not sure I’d get my hopes up when it comes to 2-rail though, sorry.
 

The impression I get is that - for mainstream / main line modelling - N and Z Scale modelling may be healthier in the States than Europe (Z is still niche, but perhaps a better served niche in the US).  In a sense then, sometimes the larger space is made even larger through choice of a smaller scale - allowing the running of longer trains.  HO scale models of the larger US prototypes can also have the presence we often associate more with larger scales, and while I think S scale was commercially stronger in the US at one time, I’m also thinking that’s no longer the case.

 

Going back in time, 3-rail O scale was used for impressive layouts - I’m thinking of Frank Ellison’s Delta Lines (c. 1940s) and I believe layout designer John Armstrong’s own large basement layout (c. 1960s) was in 3-rail O as well. But I think people took their ideas and translated them into HO - Bruce Chubb’s original Sunset Valley had a Fillmore terminal and other features inspired by Ellison.*

 

Plenty of people in the States don’t have large spaces, and are working with extreme constraints in apartments, and I’ve seen articles on layouts in trailer homes too.  Carl Arendt pioneered the micro-layout movement** from the States (and from where @Ian Holmes  now carries the baton).  Experience suggests micro-layout modellers often tend to be budget modellers too.

 

For shortline and Narrow Gauge modelling, larger scales and smaller rosters of more detailed locomotives would seem a logical combination, but my guess is they’d lack the sales volume (per modeller as well as overall) to shake up the market - as already mentioned above, Bachmann’s On30 adventure tapped into that market.

 

What does surprise me is that we haven’t seen the Märklin-type development of a more discreet 3-rail system for the US, but I think that would be unlikely now, due to compatibility issues.

 

How might a more detailed O scale two rail offering come to market - my guess is a manufacturer, possibly working alongside a provider of two-rail track, would need to get themselves featured on some of the US model railroading podcasts with at least an EP to garner interest.  There could be a market for premium products if the price point was right.  Would Rapido give it a go?  I don’t know, but it would be interesting to do.  Just some thoughts.  Hope that’s OK, Keith.

 

(* My Model Railroader heritage rather shows with all these examples.  ** I note that Carl’s Square Foot Estate was large scale).

Edited September 1, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[F-UnitMad]

6 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Would Rapido give it a go?  I don’t know, but it would be interesting to do

I asked Rapido directly, on this Forum, and the reply was basically a flat refusal to consider a US 2-rail O Scale model, because there wouldn't be the sales volume to make it viable, and the dominant 3-rail market would howl in protest if it wasn't made 3-rail compatible.

Even high-end brass manufacturers like Sunset/3rd Rail have to do 3-rail versions of models, to get enough sales volume.

American 3-railers seem to be in a blinkered world of their own - on the OGR Forum there is plenty of myth trotted out about how 'difficult' 2-rail wiring is, how "balloon tracks" (return loops in English) are impossible to use without short circuits, and 2-rail stuff derails all the time... you would think (as I have also commented on that Forum) that HO & N didn't exist!!

Beyond the divide between 2- & 3-rail holding back O Scale is what I see as the standard 'mindset' in the US of what a 'successful' model railroad is - generally a multi-level basement Empire that needs several crews and a dispatcher (who doesn't even see the layout!!) to operate properly. Interest is mostly geared to main line ops in the Transition Era, despite that time now reaching the edges of Living Memory. So HO & N fill that desire better than O, and anyone who wants bigger models will go to 3-rail O as that's all they see in shops & the media, and they might be able to squeeze into the basement a similar ambitious Empire complete with compulsory balloon tracks & a helix as in the smaller scales.

Lance Mindheim and others have been extolling shelf layouts of branch line & short line operations for well over a decade now; from what I see, only slowly is the message getting through. For what it's worth, I think it took a long time to get through into the 'mainstream' in the UK too, and people like Model Trains Editor Chris Ellis were talking about and building smaller layouts decades before the likes of Railway Modeller published anything smaller than conventional Terminus-to-Fiddleyard layouts, never mind Micro layouts.

It is true that sheer size of US locos and stock can work against O, even in a branch or short line setting - I once built an Inglenook in US O & it was 12ft long, trains being mostly just a loco & two cars. Only the size of the models (& the state of the track!!) made up for the short trains. Yes there are examples of very short trains, but realistically they are the exception more than the rule. 12ft is possibly a bit too long for many people's homes, especially in the UK. 

 

Personally I'm resigned to US O 2-rail being a sadly neglected scale, but then I've never really liked modelling in the Mainstream. Most of my US O locos are unique to me, through detailing & repainting, and outright 'kitbashing' in the case of my GP40, which is a cross of Weaver GP38-2 and Atlas SD40 & GP35 parts. Now there is just one loco type left that I really do want - a CF7. Only produced in brass years ago by Pecos River Brass, rare to the point of non-existance & silly money if one does come up, I live in naive & vain hope that some day an affordable modern plastic & metal model will be made.

 

[sncf231e]

There are many US scale models in 0 gauge by Lionel, MTH, 3Rd Rail etc; I wonder why you consider 3-rail not compatible with scale.

 

Or is the discussion on 1:48? In that case we could start a discussion on 7 mm/1:43.5 being wrong also.

 

Regards

Fred

[F-UnitMad]

11 minutes ago, sncf231e said:

I wonder why you consider 3-rail not compatible with scale.

Because of everything below footplate level!!

Steamroller wheels. Lobster claw couplers. Swinging pilots. Oh and that whacking great extra rail in the middle of the track!!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

Now there is just one loco type left that I really do want - a CF7. Only produced in brass years ago by Pecos River Brass, rare to the point of non-existance & silly money if one does come up, I live in naive & vain hope that some day an affordable modern plastic & metal model will be made.

 

You could take an F7 and build a new body for it?  It’s been done before 😃. 

[sncf231e]

29 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Because of everything below footplate level!!

Steamroller wheels. Lobster claw couplers. Swinging pilots. Oh and that whacking great extra rail in the middle of the track!!

Both are standing on 3-rail (well actually 4-rail) track, one is 2-rail, the other 3-rail. You might not like this type of locomotive, but they are both scale models.

 

 

Regards

Fred

[jasond]

Hi Fred, I've been modelling US 2-rail O-scale for 52-years - love it - best kept secret in model railways.  It's like food, 3-rail is like junk food sold all over the place (in USA) in coloured boxes, 2-rail is well-prepared, mixed dishes to make a satisfying plateful.  Oh shut up Jason! 

 

Atlas have tried twice so far, maybe we'll be 3rd time lucky.  Luckily 3-rail Hornby disappeared in a flash here in postwar-torn Britain and US entrepreneurs helped defeated Japanese back on their feet making the new norm: brass steam locos, which became the new measure of O-scale modelling.  Until Lionel 3-railers whined that their articulateds wouldn't go round the Christmas tree - easy problem to fix, eh? 

 

I'm lucky, I like operating with small prototypes, running diesels.  I know you run your lovely Pennsy Qs round the back garden with good, long trains, but like my mantel-piece Sunset D&H Challenger they've had to compromise many parts for the 3-railers: those lead truck wheels are too small on my Challenger as well - 30" vs prototype 36".  Mustn't have the lead truck shorting easily on the back of the cylinders on those sharp 3-rail curves, so ....

Jason

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, sncf231e said:

they are both scale models.

A high-end model with darkened wheels, photographed at a careful, low, side-on view.... above the footplate, scale, yes, like I said. Below the footplate, no - in fact if you want to be ultra pedantic the 2-rail one isn't to scale either, but it's less "not to scale" than the 3-railer. I don't buy your argument at all.

Take a common or garden 3-rail diesel and photograph it from a higher 3/4 viewpoint. It is nothing more than a toy. The thing is that most 3-rail modellers accept that fact & are happy with it. Fair enough, it's their hobby, but for those of us who want things to look prototypical from any vantage point 3-rail is a non-starter. The fact 3-rail items can be converted to 2-rail, freight cars much easier than locos, is not what this thread is about. It's about supplying decent 2-rail models to start with, without the compromises required for 3-rail models.

 

3 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

You could take an F7 and build a new body for it?  It’s been done before 😃. 

Given how little of an original F-unit ended up in a CF7, especially body-wise, in model terms it's easier to start with something like a GP7, in fact. ;)

[Allegheny1600]

2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Take a common or garden 3-rail diesel and photograph it from a higher 3/4 viewpoint. It is nothing more than a toy.

Hear, hear!

 I used to “do” some US 0 scale and had some lovely models, Sunset etc but I did fall prey to at least one of the 3 rail models, I think it may have been Lionel? It was in a mostly purple box iirc.  While the body was reasonable, the underworks was truly awful! I swapped out the original bogies and wheels and still have them somewhere, they are hideous.

I’m amazed at the American market that thrives on such things but then look at the European market in H0 with Maerklin! That’s surely even larger but at least there is almost always a two rail alternative there.

 I suspect that eventually, the generation that supports US 3 rail may well die off but what happens then?

Is the US 2 rail fraternity sufficiently young enough to take over or are they a similar age?

Could a resurgent US 2 rail attract many H0 scalers?

It has happened in Britain and to a smaller degree, in Europe thanks to Bernd Lenz and a few others so it’s theoretically possible in the USA - in my humble opinion of course.

Cheers,

 John 

[JAMO]

I think O scale 3-rail trains are toys. The third rail isn't realistic. We can't consider 3-rail as modeling. Sorry my discours is brutal.

 

In France, the 3-rail is tin plate. It's old and youth souvenir layouts of the carpet. A collection of vintage models. Not modeling.

 

The 2-rail is well considered but we have a dilemma about the construction: brass or plastic?

Old O scalers like "only" brass models. Youngers can like both. The brass is still the preferred material.

 

Recently a man which own "Chrézo" company has released a very nice plastic model of a French steam locomotive at an affordable price. I hope the democratization of the O scale will help this scale to survive. But it's not sure.

 

We have another problematic question: we model in 7 mm scale (1/43,5) and for some of us, it's difficult to buy German products which are made in 1/45th scale. The difference isn't very important but some don't want that difference. So they don't buy German models.

 

The French market isn't easy. We aren't a lot to model O scale. Nothing is really done to support this scale. I hope Chrézo company will change the minds of the O scalers.

Some buy brass expensive models to invest their money. I don't know if the future modelers will understand the price of such pieces of metal? Maybe these models will not attract people. Nobody knows.

 

In my case I model french trains in 1/43,5 with 1/45 and US 1/48 trains, but only shortlines, short trains, short cars, short locomotives (thanks to the 50's era). I like plastic trains but only 2-rail models. Most of the O scale 2-rail models need to add the missing realistic details. It's a long work but it's a pleasure to make them.

 

So, don't speak me about 3-rail toys! LOL

 

Anyway, I keep my HO US trains to model longer trains in a bigger scenery. But I'm still oriented to shortlines.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by JAMO

[Night Train]

It does seem the USA O gauge appeals to the "playing with trains" brigade, rather then the "model railroaders". I agree that most of what I have seen reminds me of when we had tinplate, or Hornby Dublo. Very much at the toy end of the market. I thought Bachmanns foray into ON30 was great and a number of other businesses sprung up to support it with building, conversion kits and the like, but even that seems to have died down somewhat and no new releases in years.

 

For the UK, the ability to build a workable O gauge micro layout into a 6 foot space with our small rolling stock is what has transformed it and lead to the rise in popularity. Thats not going to happen with a GP and a couple of box cars.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Night Train

[brossard]

I note the mention of "plastic" models above.  I don't have numbers but I wonder if 0 gauge in Britain has taken off since Dapol (and Minerva) started producing "plastic" locos for a very reasonable price.  I have several and they look superb with excellent performance.  I also have a couple of brass locos (San Cheng) which look and perform great but for about 3 times the price of Dapol.  I have said that I wished I started 0 gauge sooner, after struggling with 00 for 30 years.  Before Dapol came along, 0 gauge just wasn't affordable for most people.  Heljan are still overpriced IMO.

 

John

[F-UnitMad]

17 minutes ago, brossard said:

I wonder if 0 gauge in Britain has taken off since Dapol (and Minerva) started producing "plastic" locos for a very reasonable price. 

I think that's precisely the reason!! 😁

[PaulRhB]

10 minutes ago, brossard said:

Before Dapol came along, 0 gauge just wasn't affordable for most people. 
 

rtr O wasn’t but there have been healthy ranges of reasonably priced kits and I started out motorising a big big Hymek, Anglicanising an Atlas 0-6-0 switcher and scratch building a sentinel on a Lego motor block in the late 80’s while at school with a weekend job. 
I got to run them alongside kit built Vulcan, Underhill and Oakville kits which I eventually saved enough to buy a couple of. It was harder as I had to learn to make them but not unaffordable. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

Heljan are still overpriced IMO.

Ok what is the cost breakdown of your business plan to do it cheaper? Unless you know the setup of Dapol and Heljan are the same they aren’t a straight comparison. Heljan have a business that has been successful in producing multiple models and repeats so they’ve found a customer base who will pay to get more options. There’s a proven market for the existing price point. Heljan are probably better able to absorb ‘bumps’ in the market as a result. 

[tpm1ca]

14 hours ago, brossard said:

Wandering around some exhibits at an exhibition at Exporail (a local and very good railway museum) a couple of weeks ago (SNIP)

Hi John:

If you've been attending model railway exhibits at Exporail for the past few years, you've probably run into the S Scale Workshop, which has exhibited several times there. It's a fine example of "scale modelling that's larger than HO", which the original poster was asking about. A number of the members do fantastic work, including designing and building their own prototype-specific locomotive kits, kits for rolling stock, etc.

Cheers!

- Trevor (now the Western Canada member of the S Scale Workshop) 

[tpm1ca]

15 hours ago, mdvle said:

(note - by scale models I mean the prototypically accurate highly detailed items that have become the norm in HO and OO)

(SNIP)

I think there is an untapped market for something larger than HO. 

(SNIP)

I think the more likely option would be S

All good points. S scale would be a grand option for those looking for something a little bigger than HO. I know this, because in the mid-2000s I started working in S (1:64) and I've massively enjoyed it. It's a beautiful scale - a perfect blend of the detail level that's possible with 1:48 (North American O) and the space for structures and scenery provided by HO (1:87).
And there's a small but strong community of modellers working in S to create prototype-based models and layouts to a high degree of finish. There's a particularly strong group of modellers (plus me) who belong to the S Scale Workshop. They're mostly in Canada, although have a few American friends as members, too. It's a private, casual group of like-minded individuals building home layouts who also work together on a Free-mo style exhibition layout based on railroading in southern Ontario and Quebec in the late 1940s / early 1950s era. A number of the members are also hobby manufacturers - producing locomotives, rolling stock, and other components.

But it's a small group, and we don't expect it to grow significantly. And for the most part, I think the members are so busy enjoying building models and layouts that they don't really worry about it.

For my part, in addition to contributing a module to the Workshop layout, until a couple of years ago I had a decent-sized home layout in 1:64, based on a Canadian National Railways branch line to Port Rowan, Ontario. I started it in 2011, it was my first S scale layout, and it was definitely prototype-based. I like to think I demonstrated that it's possible to build a "scale" layout in S.

You can find pictures of it here:
https://themodelrailwaydotshow.wordpress.com/port-rowan-in-164/

Enjoy if you visit!

-Trevor

[brossard]

26 minutes ago, tpm1ca said:

Hi John:

If you've been attending model railway exhibits at Exporail for the past few years, you've probably run into the S Scale Workshop, which has exhibited several times there. It's a fine example of "scale modelling that's larger than HO", which the original poster was asking about. A number of the members do fantastic work, including designing and building their own prototype-specific locomotive kits, kits for rolling stock, etc.

Cheers!

- Trevor (now the Western Canada member of the S Scale Workshop) 

 

I recall a S scale layout that impressed me a few years ago Trevor, mayhap that was you.  Didn't we team at GBTS on Roweham back in 2018?

 

John

[Keith Addenbrooke]

26 minutes ago, tpm1ca said:

All good points. S scale would be a grand option for those looking for something a little bigger than HO. I know this, because in the mid-2000s I started working in S (1:64) and I've massively enjoyed it. It's a beautiful scale - a perfect blend of the detail level that's possible with 1:48 (North American O) and the space for structures and scenery provided by HO (1:87).
And there's a small but strong community of modellers working in S to create prototype-based models and layouts to a high degree of finish. There's a particularly strong group of modellers (plus me) who belong to the S Scale Workshop. They're mostly in Canada, although have a few American friends as members, too. It's a private, casual group of like-minded individuals building home layouts who also work together on a Free-mo style exhibition layout based on railroading in southern Ontario and Quebec in the late 1940s / early 1950s era. A number of the members are also hobby manufacturers - producing locomotives, rolling stock, and other components.

But it's a small group, and we don't expect it to grow significantly. And for the most part, I think the members are so busy enjoying building models and layouts that they don't really worry about it.

For my part, in addition to contributing a module to the Workshop layout, until a couple of years ago I had a decent-sized home layout in 1:64, based on a Canadian National Railways branch line to Port Rowan, Ontario. I started it in 2011, it was my first S scale layout, and it was definitely prototype-based. I like to think I demonstrated that it's possible to build a "scale" layout in S.

You can find pictures of it here:
https://themodelrailwaydotshow.wordpress.com/port-rowan-in-164/

Enjoy if you visit!

-Trevor

Hi Trevor, I didn’t realise you were here on RMweb - I regularly check back to the Port Rowan website, despite not being an S-scale modeller.  It remains one of the most inspirational layouts I know of - the sense of spaciousness and realism is (was) wonderful and, as per this thread, in a scale bigger than HO.  Keith.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[mdvle]

Lots to ponder and reply to when I have more time, but one quick response

 

8 hours ago, Night Train said:

For the UK, the ability to build a workable O gauge micro layout into a 6 foot space with our small rolling stock is what has transformed it and lead to the rise in popularity. Thats not going to happen with a GP and a couple of box cars.

 

6' may be pushing it, but a lot of people could come up with 10'.

 

A 40' boxcar is 10" in O and there are prototype locos shorter than a GP - GE 44-toner, Boxcab or even the steeple cabs like Trevor is now pursuing in S (and some of these would likely be welcomed in HO as well for a short bookshelf style layout).

 

So yes, the short goods wagons of the UK offer an advantage but things can still be achievable even for a US prototype.

 

 

[tpm1ca]

23 hours ago, brossard said:

 

I recall a S scale layout that impressed me a few years ago Trevor, mayhap that was you.  Didn't we team at GBTS on Roweham back in 2018?

 

John

Yes we did! Here's my report from that show...
https://themodelrailwaydotshow.wordpress.com/2018/05/01/investing-in-others-roweham/

Edited September 2, 2022 by tpm1ca
Adding more information, including a link to a show report.

[tpm1ca]

9 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Hi Trevor, I didn’t realise you were here on RMweb - I regularly check back to the Port Rowan website, despite not being an S-scale modeller.  It remains one of the most inspirational layouts I know of - the sense of spaciousness and realism is (was) wonderful and, as per this thread, in a scale bigger than HO.  Keith.

Thanks Keith!