Secondhand OO British models on the continent

[ruggedpeak]

Apols if this is the wrong forum (Mods please adjust accordingly!)

 

I will be moving from the UK to Continent in the near future I wondered if there is much active demand for recent OO gauge modern image RTR stock in Europe (Bachmann, Dapol, Hornby etc)? I have a large collection and will be taking it with me. However it needs thinning out, and whilst the less exciting items will be disposed of prior to departure with a hit on value to shift them, the better stuff is sellable in the UK on RMWeb, Ebay etc but is time consuming. If there is a reasonable and realistic demand on the continent then I can take them over and sell later.

 

I assume that British outline is a very niche and unlikely to sell but if there is a market it would save time now. Thanks for reading.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

If you look at ebay for the various European countries it might give you an idea, (wherever you are going?).

From personal experience there's not a great deal of s/h decent UK outline stuff here in Spain, but I've had a couple of good results due to its "unusualness".

Postage back to the UK isn't necessarily eyewatering, so that's still an option.

 

Mike.

[Darius43]

Modelbahn Union of Germany list UK OO stock in the email flyers that they occasionally send to me.

 

Cheers

 

Dariys

[Ian Morgan]

Munich has a regular second hand model railway market in the flower market, and there is usually plenty of UK stuff on offer there.

 

Going back to the 1980's, I was surprised how knowledgable the locals were of the UK scene when we took a UK layout to the Frankfurt show. It was explained to me that with most people living in apartments (flats), they did not have room for a layout so instead they would collect models and display them in cabinets. They would often have a cabinet of german trains, one of dutch trains, one of british trains, fire engines, THW vehicles, etc etc.

 

[ruggedpeak]

Thanks Gents, definitely sounds positive.  I will investigate further. 🙂

[NS Peak]

For the Netherlands I have seen interest in British models increasing over the years.  The Dutch e-bay equivalent  https://www.marktplaats.nl/ Does have quite a bit of OO and the prices are higher than you would expect.  Some model stores also carry some 00 like Kuijpers  hobby huis in Utrecht and there are other retailers that specialise in British stuff at exhibitions.  You are not going to find latest releases at discount prices, OO stuff carries  a premium which is good news if you are thinning your collection. It’s better selling privately than through an auction site as going to a store I am sure the reception would be frosty and the price offered low, but you never know

 

where were you thinking of relocating to?

Edited September 8, 2022 by NS Peak
Typo (I hate auto correct)

[SimonBoulton]

On 03/09/2022 at 18:53, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

If you look at ebay for the various European countries it might give you an idea, (wherever you are going?).

From personal experience there's not a great deal of s/h decent UK outline stuff here in Spain, but I've had a couple of good results due to its "unusualness".

Postage back to the UK isn't necessarily eyewatering, so that's still an option.

 

Mike.

There could be issues around the VAT though if the items were being sent to the UK from Europe. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

42 minutes ago, SimonBoulton said:

There could be issues around the VAT though if the items were being sent to the UK from Europe. 

 

Thereby hangs a tale, you are quite right saying could, it's currently a lottery with private and personal  packages in either direction.

Whether it will ever sort itself or not is another matter!

 

Mike.

[Stefan88]

Bit late but my experience is that there is not a huge demand for it, I picked up a huge amount of decent OO stuff on the cheap on German ebay a few years ago (before all the post-brexit VAT nonsense came in to force) and sold it on in the UK at a healthy profit. Some examples were various coaches such as Hornby Pullmans (the newer ones with interior lighting), Hornby LNER Teak (newer ones with NEM coupler mechs) and Bachmann Thompson LMS coaches for between €10-20 each, Hornby Northumbrian loco and coach set for €52, Bachmann A2 Peppercorn for €52, Dapol LMS 10001 for €66 (pre Bachmann release). Some others that were keepers included a Bachmann class 85 for €55 and 350 Silverlink EMU for €111.

 

You will probably be able to shift it over there but you'd get a pittance for it. If you can't shift it before moving, perhaps list stuff on forums & UK ebay just before any visits back to the UK and take it with you in your luggage. I did this with some surplus Austrian models the last time I visited my Mum in Vienna and made myself over €600 spending money, and have drawn up a list of stock to take with me the next time if it doesn't sell over here.

[Class 74]

As I am from (and living) in Switzerland I'm quite unique with my british stuff, especially as I am not british! I always sell my OO gauge to Hattons, no chance for selling UK models here. American models are popular in Europe, but not british. The most modellers here have NO idea how a british loco looks like! 😉

 

Cheers, and a happy new year everybody

Simon

[Andy Hayter]

Only just seen this thread so my comments for the OP are probably not much use being too late but if someone else comes along with the same question, perhaps they will benefit.

 

There is almost no market for British outline in France despite there being quite a number of refugees living in France and on RMWeb.   It is only recently that one trader has started to sell new Hornby and I suspect that is mainly because the prices are relatively low compared with most continental producers.

 

Someone mentioned selling via Ebay and shipping to the UK not being too excessive.  Unless you can find a way around it, Ebay will link the sale into its Global shipping plan and while this will avoid any VAT issues, it will likely kill any cross border deal.   I recently had the opportunity to make direct comparison of GSP versus private delivery.

Seller 1 sold more or less worldwide and was part of the GSP.  2 magazine at £8 each were treated as two separate transactions by GSP and the total price was £42.  GSP do not seem to be able to amalgamate different auctions.

Seller 2 only declared to sell to the UK.  I asked and he agreed to ship privately to France. 8 magazines at £3 each, the seller was happy to forego postage due to the bulk buy.  As it happens, no VAT was demanded on arrival but even if it had that would have been an extra £4.80 plus an $8 handling fee.

[andyman7]

17 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Only just seen this thread so my comments for the OP are probably not much use being too late but if someone else comes along with the same question, perhaps they will benefit.

 

There is almost no market for British outline in France despite there being quite a number of refugees living in France and on RMWeb.   It is only recently that one trader has started to sell new Hornby and I suspect that is mainly because the prices are relatively low compared with most continental producers.

 

Someone mentioned selling via Ebay and shipping to the UK not being too excessive.  Unless you can find a way around it, Ebay will link the sale into its Global shipping plan and while this will avoid any VAT issues, it will likely kill any cross border deal.   I recently had the opportunity to make direct comparison of GSP versus private delivery.

Seller 1 sold more or less worldwide and was part of the GSP.  2 magazine at £8 each were treated as two separate transactions by GSP and the total price was £42.  GSP do not seem to be able to amalgamate different auctions.

Seller 2 only declared to sell to the UK.  I asked and he agreed to ship privately to France. 8 magazines at £3 each, the seller was happy to forego postage due to the bulk buy.  As it happens, no VAT was demanded on arrival but even if it had that would have been an extra £4.80 plus an $8 handling fee.

When a seller sets up their postage templates, it is possible to both opt out of the GSP and create alternative international shipping so it can be done.

[D9020 Nimbus]

58 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Unless you can find a way around it, Ebay will link the sale into its Global shipping plan and while this will avoid any VAT issues,

I thought the GSP only applied to U.K. and US sellers. Have things changed in that respect, then?

[icn]

On 03/12/2022 at 02:38, Stefan88 said:

If you can't shift it before moving, perhaps list stuff on forums & UK ebay just before any visits back to the UK and take it with you in your luggage.

 

Bear in mind that with this approach you have to declare and tax these imports at the UK border. The personal use exemption is just that, and doesn't cover imports that are intended to be sold. (Similar rules apply to most countries in fact.)

 

Separately, the postal story to the UK is interesting. The UK government does say that below GBP 135 its the seller that's responsible for VAT. So what happens if you are a private individual sending to the UK who didn't bother with prepaying VAT for a package under GBP 135? The Swiss post tells me the receiver will be charged those taxes just like commercial packages over the limit - except for gifts and equivalent under GBP 39: https://www.post.ch/en/sending-parcels/international-consignments/brexit-goods-consignments-to-great-britain . That would match the gift import rule where the receive pays taxes if the gift is over GBP 39.

 

The experience with the magazines upthread isn't surprising: it seems like they were treated the same as gifts - under GBP 39 and there's no import tax due.

 

Mind you the government and Royal Mail could be a lot less convoluted about it: it seems the actual rule is: seller should charge VAT for packages up to GBP 135. If VAT has not been charged for any reason - e.g. because foreign sellers can't be bothered to deal with HMRC (why should they after all): VAT is charged at the border unless the package is under GBP 39.

Edited January 8, 2023 by icn

[Stefan88]

On 08/01/2023 at 11:44, icn said:

 

Bear in mind that with this approach you have to declare and tax these imports at the UK border. The personal use exemption is just that, and doesn't cover imports that are intended to be sold. (Similar rules apply to most countries in fact.)

 

I somehow doubt that there are HMRC agents prowling RMWeb looking for an expat to sell a couple hundred quids worth of model railway stuff and sneak it over the border, waiting at the airport dressed in trench coats and fedoras to pull them over in to the customs area and demand £40 VAT.

 

On 08/01/2023 at 11:44, icn said:

 

Separately, the postal story to the UK is interesting. The UK government does say that below GBP 135 its the seller that's responsible for VAT. So what happens if you are a private individual sending to the UK who didn't bother with prepaying VAT for a package under GBP 135? The Swiss post tells me the receiver will be charged those taxes just like commercial packages over the limit - except for gifts and equivalent under GBP 39: https://www.post.ch/en/sending-parcels/international-consignments/brexit-goods-consignments-to-great-britain . That would match the gift import rule where the receive pays taxes if the gift is over GBP 39.

 

Why should a foreign seller bother to collect VAT for a foreign country that has no tax jurisdiction over them? Whether a private individual or a business HMRCs policy is laughable and they're extremely fortunate ebay and amazon agreed to collect VAT for them.

 

I can only guess that the £135 rule came in as a compromise for Royal Mail, Parcel Force and all the other courier firms due to the sheer volume of incoming parcels that would need to be checked, charged for and cleared, everything would grind to even more of a halt and a huge amount more warehouse space would be required.

[Andy Hayter]

10 hours ago, Stefan88 said:

 

 

 

Why should a foreign seller bother to collect VAT for a foreign country that has no tax jurisdiction over them?

 

 

For one off sales I agree but for regular importers to the UK, then they find themselves banned and goods impounded.

 

We tend to look at these things trough the eyes of railway modellers buying individual items without seeing the bigger picture.

[Colin_McLeod]

There is more UK stuff for sale in EU than one might expect.  E bay has a filter for location of goods and with that set to EU all relevant the listings appear.  Avoids the VAT and cost implications of Brexit and the  expensive ebay Global Shipping Program.

[SRman]

Sorry, latecomer to this thread:

I was in Denmark in August and September, and found a rather nice model shop, Togcenter, in the municipality of Gentofte. They had quite a decent second-hand section, and, much to my surprise, some British OO stuff in there. I actually bought some second-hand Danish stock, as I have more local sources available here in Australia for British OO stock. I thought I took a photo with the British items in, but can't find it: they were in a cabinet just around to the left of the case on the extreme right of the photo.

Another completely surprising item I saw in there was a Bec white metal tram kit.

[icn]

On 12/01/2023 at 02:07, Stefan88 said:

 

I somehow doubt that there are HMRC agents prowling RMWeb looking for an expat to sell a couple hundred quids worth of model railway stuff and sneak it over the border, waiting at the airport dressed in trench coats and fedoras to pull them over in to the customs area and demand £40 VAT.

 

I didn't say anything about enforcement, I was merely pointing out what the law states. I personally don't condone tax evasion in any case - but I should point out that I have heard of people being stopped, searched, and given a fine. I've only ever had a 2 sentence questioning myself over years of travel admittedly.

 

On 12/01/2023 at 02:07, Stefan88 said:

Why should a foreign seller bother to collect VAT for a foreign country that has no tax jurisdiction over them? Whether a private individual or a business HMRCs policy is laughable and they're extremely fortunate ebay and amazon agreed to collect VAT for them.

 

I can only guess that the £135 rule came in as a compromise for Royal Mail, Parcel Force and all the other courier firms due to the sheer volume of incoming parcels that would need to be checked, charged for and cleared, everything would grind to even more of a halt and a huge amount more warehouse space would be required.

These policies seem initially questionable from a jurisdictional standpoint, but the UK is actually a straggler in this regard. Similar policies have existed within the United States for cross-state commerce for a long time now, the EU has introduced such rules recently, and others are following suit.

 

The EU and UK rules aren't even as bad as it seems at first - parcels without prepaid taxes are simply handled as before, perhaps taking into account some duty free threshhold. However sellers who don't follow the rules are putting their customers at a disadvantage as they will now have to pay not only the taxes but customs processing fees on top. As a seller you want to follow these rules to avoid a bad reputation.

 

Large intermediaries such as Ebay and Amazon have no choice in any case as they have UK-based subsidiaries. Small sellers can ignore the rules and end up with disappointed customers.

 

 

[Stefan88]

Well so far in reality various German and Austrian small traders have some very happy customers buying tax free!