Locomotives and rolling stock at bargain prices at model railway shows

[rogerzilla]

If you are an inveterate collector of locos, DCC is unattractive because (a) of the cost and (b) you might not run them much, if at all.  So I think there is still a huge market for the DC stuff.

[298]

When passing on items to Nephews or looking for secondhand Hornby buildings to fill up a trackmat I was careful to ensure they were accepted as gifts for them and therefore under their ownership, instead of "lending" items that they might have a duty of care to look after and return, although they were happy to accept any old tat that might otherwise be seen lingering under a table at a swapmeet. Even then it was difficult to shake off any pre-conceptions that anything in an old Hornby red box was good because the green 06 I couldn't otherwise get rid of was such a dire runner when compared to newer trainset locos.

 

One mistake that beginners seem to make when transitioning from a train set to a scale model railway is to try to find a prototype that all of their collection to date will fit into, when in fact such compromises are awkward and unnecessary when you can sell on superfluous items or just run them occasionally, or keep them for future projects...

[The Black Hat]

9 hours ago, Northmoor said:

@The Black HatYou seem to suggest that analogue DC will become obsolete (by the correct meaning of the word, "no longer available from the original manufacturer") in the near future, I don't see that happening at all.  DCC has its evangelists who seem to see it as the only possible future and that model railways won't be built without endless functions the owner never uses.  I suspect that there is tremendous inertia in the hobby that will mean it takes a very long time for DCC to become the standard (and what version of DCC will be that standard?).  Plus there will be 20/30/50 years of secondhand stock on the market which has not been converted for DCC, that will still be available to the analogue modeller.

Sorry but I am honestly wondering what planet your on. DCC I would think is already dominating the market. DC is already obsolete and it has been for years. You can't get a new engine without it being dcc ready or now in most cases DCC fitted or DCC sound. People are modelling with DCC because it is better - loads better and it would be wrong to suggest even for a moment that a youngster with the enjoyment and enthusiasm that I saw should think of using analogue. Go and see exhibition layouts, those that are used at home and most people now use DCC systems. You dont need one controller to be dominant, merely that DCC systems are used more than analogue. Its clear DCC holds value and has greater resale given the collapse in supply for various reasons. Meanwhile that 20/30/50 years of second hand analogue stock will remain and will be there for a modeller who wants it - but those selling care more about the sale and of shifting such stock as the number wanting it really is dwindelling. 

Analogue is already obsolete and like Canute the tide is in. 

[john new]

9 hours ago, Northmoor said:

@The Black HatYou seem to suggest that analogue DC will become obsolete (by the correct meaning of the word, "no longer available from the original manufacturer") in the near future, I don't see that happening at all.  DCC has its evangelists who seem to see it as the only possible future and that model railways won't be built without endless functions the owner never uses.  I suspect that there is tremendous inertia in the hobby that will mean it takes a very long time for DCC to become the standard (and what version of DCC will be that standard?).  Plus there will be 20/30/50 years of secondhand stock on the market which has not been converted for DCC, that will still be available to the analogue modeller.

I moved some of my modern stuff to DCC as felt it was the way to go, I am not finding much benefit and in one respect darned annoying. 

 

The drive the train not the track is annoying as you lose the easy directionality of DC irrespective of which way round it was placed on the track. DCC purists will call me a Luddite for that but it is what I grew up with and to me makes more sense. Switch set to left it goes left and the converse.

 

[john new]

8 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

If you are an inveterate collector of locos, DCC is unattractive because (a) of the cost and (b) you might not run them much, if at all.  So I think there is still a huge market for the DC stuff.

And unlike the view of @The Black Hat DCC with all the bells and whistles is far more complicated than simple DC needing umpteen digital thing-a-me-jigs to achieve the same thing as a few section switches.

[Halvarras]

If you want lights DCC is desirable as they work more like the real thing. If you also want sound DCC is necessary. If lights are irrelevant to your particular modelling interest, you're a 'one man band' who operates the layout mainly or exclusively at home, are happy with the performance of your DC locomotives and don't mind the additional layout wiring, DCC is probably an expense and complication you can do without. Messing about with CV values doesn't appeal to me as a modelling activity, I'd rather make, modify and paint stuff - I model mainly 1960s/70s diesels, I have quite a lot and, as has been said before on this forum, loco lighting in that era was almost invisible in normal daylight (and I have no desire to run my models in the dark). If I modelled 1980s-on with high-intensity headlights I would go DCC (the very few '80s locos that I have would not justify converting my entire fleet).

 

Perhaps one day the manufacturers will let us know that in their opinion DC is obsolete by making DCC standard - probably when people like me are obsolete 😇!!

 

[The Black Hat]

1 hour ago, john new said:

And unlike the view of @The Black Hat DCC with all the bells and whistles is far more complicated than simple DC needing umpteen digital thing-a-me-jigs to achieve the same thing as a few section switches.

 
All due respect - but really think its completely the opposite. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by The Black Hat

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Halvarras said:

If you want lights DCC is desirable as they work more like the real thing.

 

Rubbish.  Seen plenty DCC layouts with flickery lights (and real electricfied trains with flickery lights, but that's not the effect I want on a steam outline layout)!  I have coach lights operated by battery on board the coaches on my DC layout, they are completely reliable and work perfectly, switched on/off by magnetic wand, cheap as chips from China on the 'zon.  Loco lights are a different thing on a steam layout as there is not as yet a system of posable working lights that can be moved around to show correct headcodes in DC or DCC unless you can accept locos permanently allocated to that class of train in one direction only; on a BLT, this is simply not possible, the tech hasn't been developed yet.  DCC lighting of diesel and electric locos is much better, but usually too bright and a blue/white cast is unsuitable for 4-character headcodes.  Most installations seem incapable of turning the loco tail lamps off when it is coupled to a train, or on pre-1980 period dmus/emus, which (apart from on the Southern Region) did not use twin electric tail lamps, they used single oil lamps. 

 

I find pretty much all lighting used on steam-era layouts to be far too bright, including building and semaphore signal lights.  As a general rule, if you can see that the light is on without having to make a point of looking for it under the normal 'daytime' operating lighting level for the layout, it's too bright.  Battery operated lighting can much more easily be brought down to a realistic level, along with a coat of acrylic cream over the bulbs to further subdue and 'warm' the lights for the correct dim 25w filament bulb effect.

 

3 hours ago, Halvarras said:

If you also want sound DCC is necessary.

 

No argument, but those tinny (no, I haven't misspelled 'tiny') little speakers that are all that can be fitted inside 4mm models are not doing anyone any favours, about as realistic as Smokey Joe's chassis.  Real trains are LOUD, and give out a very full range of sound wavelengths.  Bursts of white noise do not sound like steam exhuast*.  Surely it would be better, both in the interests of realism and of consideration for other people in the house to have sound delivered through hi-fi headphones, with spatial effects controlled by the DCC circuitry.

 

3 hours ago, Halvarras said:

Perhaps one day the manufacturers will let us know that in their opinion DC is obsolete by making DCC standard - probably when people like me are obsolete 😇!!

 

 

Perhaps, but there seems little indication of it yet, and at my age (71st birthday next week) it is a bit academic; I'll be obsolete as well💀!  My opinion, which is worth exactly what I'm charging for it, is that DC and DCC will, possibly within the next decade, be replaced by a system that provides a rechargeable on-board power source and wireless NFC control of on-board circuitry from beneath the track, perhaps using axle-hung or direct axle drive traction motors on all wheels.  This will enable plastic track and wheels to be used, with no pickups, and with little or no gearing slow running would be near-perfect.  I'll long be a'moulderin' in m' grave by that time though!

 

 

*I accept that reproducing the range of noises a specific steam engine can make at different regulator and reverser settings under differing loads on differing gradients over a range of boiler pressures and a range of wear affecting the valve events is a big ask, never mind tailoring it to specific classes and never mind factoring in safety valves, blowers, and leaks!  The chip needs to assess not just the actual load on the model's motor, the amps it is drawing, but also make a decent algorithmic stab at guessing how a real loco might be performing and sounding in that situation translated into reality and then reprocessed for scale, which is not necessarily the same thing at all, in real time and accurately enough to be convincing.  A better dynamic range from the chip, which could be handled by decent hi-fi headphones, would be a step in the right direction, though, even for diesels and electrics.

 

The fact that perfection cannot be achieved is not, IMHO, a reason to not attempt to achieve it to the best of one's ability.  This viewpoint will be anathema to RTR marketing departments, production engineers, or bank managers, but we are paying enough now for our models for such views to be taken seriously.  Well, actually, I'm probably not paying enough, as my DC ready models are much cheaper than DCC fitted and cheaper again than DCC sound fitted...

Edited March 11, 2023 by The Johnster

[John M Upton]

I am an analogue dinosaur, still remain to be convinced DCC is worth the hassle, more technical gimerickery to go wrong, more expense.

 

I do buy a fair amount of spares or repairs locos and in recent years I have found that most of the problems are due to the DCC parts, most of which winds up in the bin and the loco magically bursts back into life.

 

In my experience, 95% of the sound fitted locos I have heard just sound tinny and naff and yet people have shelled out hundreds more on top of the vanilla specification price for that?  I would be demanding my money back!

[Halvarras]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Rubbish.  Seen plenty DCC layouts with flickery lights (and real electricfied trains with flickery lights, but that's not the effect I want on a steam outline layout)!  I have coach lights operated by battery on board the coaches on my DC layout, they are completely reliable and work perfectly, switched on/off by magnetic wand, cheap as chips from China on the 'zon.  Loco lights are a different thing on a steam layout as there is not as yet a system of posable working lights that can be moved around to show correct headcodes in DC or DCC unless you can accept locos permanently allocated to that class of train in one direction only; on a BLT, this is simply not possible, the tech hasn't been developed yet.  DCC lighting of diesel and electric locos is much better, but usually too bright and a blue/white cast is unsuitable for 4-character headcodes.  Most installations seem incapable of turning the loco tail lamps off when it is coupled to a train, or on pre-1980 period dmus/emus, which (apart from on the Southern Region) did not use twin electric tail lamps, they used single oil lamps. 

 

I find pretty much all lighting used on steam-era layouts to be far too bright, including building and semaphore signal lights.  As a general rule, if you can see that the light is on without having to make a point of looking for it under the normal 'daytime' operating lighting level for the layout, it's too bright.  Battery operated lighting can much more easily be brought down to a realistic level, along with a coat of acrylic cream over the bulbs to further subdue and 'warm' the lights for the correct dim 25w filament bulb effect.

 

 

No argument, but those tinny (no, I haven't misspelled 'tiny') little speakers that are all that can be fitted inside 4mm models are not doing anyone any favours, about as realistic as Smokey Joe's chassis.  Real trains are LOUD, and give out a very full range of sound wavelengths.  Bursts of white noise do not sound like steam exhuast*.  Surely it would be better, both in the interests of realism and of consideration for other people in the house to have sound delivered through hi-fi headphones, with spatial effects controlled by the DCC circuitry.

 

 

Perhaps, but there seems little indication of it yet, and at my age (71st birthday next week) it is a bit academic; I'll be obsolete as well💀!  My opinion, which is worth exactly what I'm charging for it, is that DC and DCC will, possibly within the next decade, be replaced by a system that provides a rechargeable on-board power source and wireless NFC control of on-board circuitry from beneath the track, perhaps using axle-hung or direct axle drive traction motors on all wheels.  This will enable plastic track and wheels to be used, with no pickups, and with little or no gearing slow running would be near-perfect.  I'll long be a'moulderin' in m' grave by that time though!

 

 

*I accept that reproducing the range of noises a specific steam engine can make at different regulator and reverser settings under differing loads on differing gradients over a range of boiler pressures and a range of wear affecting the valve events is a big ask, never mind tailoring it to specific classes and never mind factoring in safety valves, blowers, and leaks!  The chip needs to assess not just the actual load on the model's motor, the amps it is drawing, but also make a decent algorithmic stab at guessing how a real loco might be performing and sounding in that situation translated into reality and then reprocessed for scale, which is not necessarily the same thing at all, in real time and accurately enough to be convincing.  A better dynamic range from the chip, which could be handled by decent hi-fi headphones, would be a step in the right direction, though, even for diesels and electrics.

 

The fact that perfection cannot be achieved is not, IMHO, a reason to not attempt to achieve it to the best of one's ability.  This viewpoint will be anathema to RTR marketing departments, production engineers, or bank managers, but we are paying enough now for our models for such views to be taken seriously.  Well, actually, I'm probably not paying enough, as my DC ready models are much cheaper than DCC fitted and cheaper again than DCC sound fitted...

 

I've given you a tick (not the nasty kind...!) because I agree with pretty much everything you say. Regarding lights, what I meant was at a basic level lighting should work more realistically on DCC because the track is always live so the lights are always on, unless you choose to switch 'em off remotely, and I can understand the attraction of that for post-80s era modellers. Whether they do work more realistically is down to electrical continuity, which is another matter entirely and rails get dirty surprisingly quickly in exhibition halls, as I found out through personal experience.

 

For me personally, DCC isn't necessary for what I want to achieve from the hobby, and like you I've saved a lot of money buying DCC-ready and in some cases, DCC-unready, which run well enough for me.

[daryll]

just came back from the Model Railway Exhibition at Basingstoke , won a hat in the tombola and picked up a Hornby R868 M7 with Romford  wheels, fulling working for £25 , very happy with that 

The M7 was £30 , but I offered £25 , it was accepted

Edited March 11, 2023 by daryll

[Halvarras]

Just thought of another exhibition bargain - many years ago a trader at Trainwest in Melksham had Bachmann Class 08 D4192 in BR green on sale for £29.99. Turns out he'd discovered an unopened box of six he didn't know he had, so he blew them out. I bought one, which is now 08840 still in green, and since wished I'd bought another at the time - I don't think he was limiting customers to one, he just wanted them gone. However back then Baccy 08s could be had for £50-55 so although it sounds like an absolute steal by current standards it wasn't quite half-price at the time - but still a bargain.

[OnTheBranchline]

I'll be honest - bargains are few and far between on our side of the pond (more specifically in Canada). A lot of the time, it's just junky stuff.

['CHARD]

6 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

A lot of the time, it's just junky stuff.

 

Mind you put that gear in the sharps bin! 

[Rich_F]

On 11/03/2023 at 07:53, John M Upton said:

I am an analogue dinosaur, still remain to be convinced DCC is worth the hassle, more technical gimerickery to go wrong, more expense.

 

I do buy a fair amount of spares or repairs locos and in recent years I have found that most of the problems are due to the DCC parts, most of which winds up in the bin and the loco magically bursts back into life.

 

In my experience, 95% of the sound fitted locos I have heard just sound tinny and naff and yet people have shelled out hundreds more on top of the vanilla specification price for that?  I would be demanding my money back!

 

Given my addiction to micro layouts & dioramas, DC is so much easier when throwing together a shelf, trackplan & a loco with a couple of wagons. 

 

For something under 1m in length I personally don't need the faff of digital. 

[pH]

On 11/03/2023 at 19:55, OnTheBranchline said:

I'll be honest - bargains are few and far between on our side of the pond (more specifically in Canada). A lot of the time, it's just junky stuff.

It helps if you’re not modelling Canadian roads in Canada. Stock from smaller, more obscure US roads can often be cheaper. And while it can be almost impossible to justify locos from such roads if you’re trying to be prototypical about modelling the CPR (for example), freight cars do get around.

Edited March 30, 2023 by pH

[John M Upton]

Did manage to pick a few bargains at Ally Pally, US HO was aplenty and well priced for a change and picked a few bits up, sadly some of those bargains seemed to have been scalped as I saw the same models on ebay at noticeably higher prices just a day later. 

 

Dapol's returns stand was fairly reasonable but not like it used to be, £80 for a Class 33 from them was my top limit that I was prepared to pay.

[37114]

I have had quite a few bargains at shows over the years, as I attend mostly as an exhibitor I make a point of going round the traders 15 mins before the show opens as I know others do; more often than not my experience is whatever bargains are left when the show opened is about 50% of the bargains that were "on sale" 30 minutes before the doors open.

[6990WitherslackHall]

Not a model railway show but I picked up a modern Graham Farish Class 25 for £59 at Pickering station during the NYMR steam gala.

[Mallard60022]

2015 or 16 ish, at the Donny Show, Hereford Model Centre had a box of around a dozen BR SR Pacifics, in as new condition. Both original and Modified. I'd just decided on my Layout area and era, so I was twitching like mad...but resisted! I also thought, Northern Show, Southern Loco's; umm, may not have gone.

The following week I phoned them up and asked if they had been sold. Nope. I asked them if they could email me a list, which they did the same day. 

Next. a Phone call and  I made them an offer for the batch I wanted most. 8 Loco's. £300, including postage! 

Every one was spot on and excellent. These Engines go for around £80 to £100+ a pop now at Auctions

I rarely see real 'bargains' at shows, except Books.

I've never ever done that sort of thing again.

Phil

[melmerby]

34 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

2015 or 16 ish, at the Donny Show, Hereford Model Centre had a box of around a dozen BR SR Pacifics, in as new condition. Both original and Modified. I'd just decided on my Layout area and era, so I was twitching like mad...but resisted! I also thought, Northern Show, Southern Loco's; umm, may not have gone.

The following week I phoned them up and asked if they had been sold. Nope. I asked them if they could email me a list, which they did the same day. 

Next. a Phone call and  I made them an offer for the batch I wanted most. 8 Loco's. £300, including postage! 

Every one was spot on and excellent. These Engines go for around £80 to £100+ a pop now at Auctions

I rarely see real 'bargains' at shows, except Books.

I've never ever done that sort of thing again.

Phil

I hear an echo🙂

 

 

[OnTheBranchline]

It can go the other way: I foolish speculated with buying some Exley Gen 2 coaches 'for cheap' and I've been stuck with them ever since.

Edited October 5, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[Barclay]

Forgot to mention this one - Expo-EM 2022 on the 2nd hand stand. Stanier 2-6-4T from a Hornby body with Comet chassis. I think Ultrascale wheels. Needed a few tweaks but nothing much. Finished painting it at the weekend:

 

Alright for £20 ???

 

 

 

[NBL]

Non runner 4mm Heljan 17, no buffers or glazing, unboxed for £30 at a small show club stand.

 

Took it home, touched a 9v battery with no response.  Took the body off to find a DCC chip  fitted.  

 

Put it onto my programming track, read the decoder and reset it.  Now runs like a dream.

 

New buffers and glazing already in the stash.

[Kris]

Today's bargain. £10 for the lot. 

 

 

Many of the wagons look to have never been taken out of their boxes and the vehicles are much the same.