Class 142 Pacers miss matched

[keysan]

So sorry for the lazy research , I need to take the dog for a walk. I would love to get back to this answer. Did they run miss matched. I.e. Provincial/ GMT or Provincial/ GMT coupled to a Skipper? 

 

Personally, I have never witnessed it. Just thinking because Pre 2nd generation anything went.

 

Thank you  

[Robert Shrives]

I cannot recall seeing it.  Sets were kept together for ease of maintenance, splitting a set gave all sorts of fun with TOPS RSL reports and Gemini  reports for allocations etc.    I did get involved  ( a little bit) with 156/153 lash ups when  156`s got battle damage after level crossing incidents. Scotrail did 156 3car reforms for Oban line summers when the obvious lack of seats compared with a LHCS came home to bite.  the 150 fleet due to sad accidents lost two 52xxx cars so there was a time of a non toilet twin and then 3car reforms at TS.  But that a bit off topic I think pacers were a bit tidier but sure a Newton Heath observer will know more.

 

Robert    

[Wickham Green too]

This one probably confused TOPS a little ....... certainly confused me when I tried to find it in Platform 5 ! : - 

 

[Robert Shrives]

Was that when there was interoperability problems with changing of gearbox types once renumbered they did not revert  from the 1436xx just to add even more confusion and mirth.   The 143 as last build and not with a Leyand body were quite good on welded track .. perhaps best of the bunch. 

Robert  

[SHMD]

I've never witnessed it with class 142s....

(Only 142s in the Manchester area,)

 

 

Kev.

(Who is keeping a keen lookout for this happening to any Manchester Metro 2-car Trams units (from 3001 to ((so far)) 3145) doing this.

[Wickham Green too]

48 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

Was that when there was interoperability problems with changing of gearbox types ....

5th March 1988 - before any renumbering ...... a temporary formation of cars 55643 & 55676.

[Robert Shrives]

Wow - good to know Heaton keeping the wheels turning, even  got a bog as well, I wonder where 55668 and 55651 respective pairings were?  and at least livery the same which hides the fun.

 

Robert 

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, Robert Shrives said:

I cannot recall seeing it.  Sets were kept together for ease of maintenance, splitting a set gave all sorts of fun with TOPS RSL reports and Gemini  reports for allocations etc.    I did get involved  ( a little bit) with 156/153 lash ups when  156`s got battle damage after level crossing incidents. Scotrail did 156 3car reforms for Oban line summers when the obvious lack of seats compared with a LHCS came home to bite.  the 150 fleet due to sad accidents lost two 52xxx cars so there was a time of a non toilet twin and then 3car reforms at TS.  But that a bit off topic I think pacers were a bit tidier but sure a Newton Heath observer will know more.

 

Robert    

 

Pre 2nd gen, most DMUS had conventional buffers/drawgear, so was easier to mix n match (MU control systems excepted)

2nd gen are pretty much bar-coupled within sets, not as easy to change things around.

Off topic from 142s:

 

Northern 150209 was made up of 57209/57212..... keep your legs crossed on that one.

Although they were part of FGW 3 car 150116 and 150125 before that.

It has now been disbanded and spilt into two of the six 150/0 3 cars that Northern have. Now parts of 150003/004.

 

Regarding mixed liveries, TS/Centro/West Mids (whoever) made up some 3 car units using 150/1s and middle cars by splitting 150/2s.

They were repainted a 3-car sets into different liveries. When the sets were disbanded, the 150/2s were reformed with mis-matched colours, and sent north in 2011, such as this:

 

 

 

 

 

[Ragtag]

 

 

[Robert Shrives]

Great pics, good to see it did happen and thanks for taking it, I guess for many the pacer fell off the bottom of taking photos pre digital era. I guess you enjoyed a journey across the Hope Valley  with pics at both ends of the valley of no hope!  I recall a guard friend of mine buzzing his driver in a 158 to telling him the pacer was airborne on the back - speed knocked off! 

I guess in N I can now happily mix and match the 142 fleet.

Robert 

[keefer]

Don't know about the 150s or Pacers but with the 156s there was some consideration as to forming 3-car sets.

There are semi-automatic BSI couplers between vehicles (i.e. not fixed bars) which didn't have electrical (control) connections, so a separate 42-wire control jumper was provided.

On the front, under the driver's side, there was a corresponding jumper socket so it was relatively simple to assemble a 3-car set.

 

Couplings page at Class 156 info site

Edited September 5, 2022 by keefer

[Wheatley]

Given that it was a running joke in RRNE/Northern Spirit/ATN/Northern's fleet department that they never once managed to get two142s to the same mod state, I'm impressed that they managed to get two different ends to talk to each other !

 

In theory it's easy, even on a bar coupled vehicle, it just takes longer. 

 

 

[Steven B]

I'd say miss-matched liveries within a single unit were very uncommon, but possible.

144016 Leeds by British Rail 1980s and 1990s, on Flickr

 

Two units working in multiple in different liveries was common place:

Different Liveried 142s From The 'Box (Michael McNicholas) by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

[keysan]

Thank you for that and sorry I did not log on last night. Looks like it was a rare occurrence. I certainly never witnessed it. Probably explains why I could not find much.  

[Ragtag]

The pics I shared were the only example I could find, and I believe a result of accident damage.

[keysan]

1 hour ago, Ragtag said:

The pics I shared were the only example I could find, and I believe a result of accident damage.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, all little evidence there is out there is later on in life. I remember when they were first introduced and seeing 4 car sets coupled together in different liveries on postal trains to Holyhead I assume. Around Midnight going around the curve at Earlestown. Then the skippers quickly got evicted and ended up in the North West.  

 

Thank you 

[Wheatley]

Accident damage would be about the only reason for splitting a 142, they were remarkably robust but they did bend occasionally. I almost certainly dealt with the insurance claims for whatever it was those two hit ! 

 

The 144 with the mismatched centre car is, bizarrely, more likely to do with WYPTE owning the centre vehicles outright and authoring the repaints faster than whowever owned the driving vehicles. 

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, Wheatley said:

.... The 144 with the mismatched centre car ....

.... certainly wasn't the only one : - 

 

144.021 : York, 10/4/04

Edited September 6, 2022 by Wickham Green too

[Wheatley]

Thank you, looks like I was right. As well as the repaint the centre car has new seats and the footstep refurb (GRP instead of resin/carborundum painted on) and the DMS hasn't. Can't remember at this distance if they were managed by different ROSCOs, I only got involved when they injured someone or hit something !

 

I do remember that the centre cars were the vehicle of choice on a cold morning, the heaters were epic. 

 

[Wickham Green too]

All managed by Porterbrook according to contemporary Platform 5.

[charliepetty]

I have 100s of photos but have never seen a miss matched set in person, but obviously during re-livering the sets this obvously happened, but I suspect for only a matter of weeks, not months.

 

https://realtrackmodels.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=91

 

Charlie

[adb968008]

On 05/09/2022 at 09:08, keefer said:

Don't know about the 150s or Pacers but with the 156s there was some consideration as to forming 3-car sets.

There are semi-automatic BSI couplers between vehicles (i.e. not fixed bars) which didn't have electrical (control) connections, so a separate 42-wire control jumper was provided.

On the front, under the driver's side, there was a corresponding jumper socket so it was relatively simple to assemble a 3-car set.

 

Couplings page at Class 156 info site

Class 156’s did run as 3 cars for a while.

 

details here

 

http://members.madasafish.com/~dysgraphyk/156/class156_misformed.htm

 

in addition to the list above, there was some 156/158 hybrids in Scotland in 1990 as 158’s didnt have snowploughs initially.

Edited September 7, 2022 by adb968008

[russ p]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Class 156’s did run as 3 cars for a while.

 

details here

 

http://members.madasafish.com/~dysgraphyk/156/class156_misformed.htm

 

in addition to the list above, there was some 156/158 hybrids in Scotland in 1990 as 158’s didnt have snowploughs initially.

 

I think it was down to 158s not operating track circuits initially.  As if it was snow ploughs would only be any good in one direction 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

I think it was down to 158s not operating track circuits initially.  As if it was snow ploughs would only be any good in one direction 

No definitely snowploughs, they were turned in the platform at Inverness, using the FN line triangle…and again at Glasgow.

one of those “I was there, stranded, and felt the pain” moments.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by adb968008

[D9020 Nimbus]

There were a number of 3-car 150 sets on the Cambrian lines, made up of two 150/1 cars sandwiching a 150/2 car. Certainly back in 1991, when one of these was on a Sunday evening run from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth. (I was in the other part of the train, a 150/2. They had a bit of difficulty coupling the two units together.)