Accurascale Goes Bananas! SR D1478 and D1479 Diagram Banana Vans in OO/4mm

[Tim Dubya]

14 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Marketing opportunity.

 

Buy 3 wagons: get free Guinness voucher.  YaY!

 

and cider...

 

A "Pint of diesel youngun'?"

 

Where I'm from, (I can almost see where I was born, 2 miles away mind 😉)

 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Tim Dubya
Sorry lads

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

I think it may have been elsewhere that someone described how to do an altered Ratio/Peco/Parkside Van and a Red Panda UF? On the RP instruction sheet it suggests this could make an 8T 'Wood' Diagram1/244 I think it was?

If so, what has to happen to the Body?

If it was explained elsewhere perhaps someone with the strength and energy that I no longer have, post a link here?

Total admiration if you can and and many thanks in advance.

Phil

Not specific to the Banana van Phil, but probably transferable. I've used a Parkside PA16 UF under a Ratio LMS van and the Parkside floor went pretty much straight in where the Ratio one was intended to be. Maybe a gentle pass with a file, but no more.

 

Red Panda UFs and Parkside bodies also mix quite happily, so you shouldn't have any hassle.

 

If you want to be absolutely certain before committing yourself, just stick the two halves of the unwanted Ratio UF together and compare.

 

No body mods are required to make things fit in either case, but I don't know enough to advise on any cosmetic alterations involved in a Dia. 1/244 conversion.

 

Addition: Just found a drawing of 1/244 (p.69 of BR Wagons, the First Half Million) which shows the change to have been some spreader plates added to the ends of the diagonal body strapping. 

 

John

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

7 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Not specific to the Banana van Phil, but probably applicable. I've used a Parkside PA16 UF under a Ratio LMS van and the Parkside floor went pretty much straight in where the Ratio one was intended to be. Maybe a gentle pass with a file, but no more.

 

Red Panda UFs and Parkside bodies also mix quite happily, so you shouldn't have any hassle.

 

If you want to be absolutely certain before committing yourself, just stick the two halves of the unwanted Ratio UF together and compare.

 

No body mods are required to make things fit in either case, but I don't know enough to advise on any cosmetic alterations involved in a Dia. 1/244 conversion.

 

John

Ah yes, the PA16, I have one of those and a Peco PC541, BR Van Kit awaiting, not an LMS one. I think that creates yet another Diagram IIRC, but could easily be totally confused?

I'm after the Panda RA01 (same as for the Dapol BR Van conversion and the Ratio/Peco Body for the 8T  Lot3119 D244. The Red Panda sheet just says use the Ratio Kit as a basis for the 244 but it doesn't say the Ref number but I'm assuming they mean the BR one that is now Peco?.

Ta John, I'm getting the gist of this 'play with the bits' game.

Phil 

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Ah yes, the PA16, I have one of those and a Peco PC541, BR Van Kit awaiting, not an LMS one. I think that creates yet another Diagram IIRC, but could easily be totally confused?

I'm after the Panda RA01 (same as for the Dapol BR Van conversion and the Ratio/Peco Body for the 8T  Lot3119 D244. The Red Panda sheet just says use the Ratio Kit as a basis for the 244 but it doesn't say the Ref number but I'm assuming they mean the BR one that is now Peco?.

Ta John, I'm getting the gist of this 'play with the bits' game.

Phil 

Ys, the Ratio/Parkside-by-Peco Banana van body is the one to use.

 

Extra clarification added to my previous post. I guess you probably have the book in question.

 

John

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Ys, the Ratio/Parkside-by-Peco Banana van body is the one to use.

 

Extra clarification added to my previous post. I guess you probably have the book in question.

 

John

I'm probably over thinking the whole thing, however a couple of posters on this thread certainly know their stuff about these Vans and I wouldn't want to make them feel as if their advice had been wasted.

I am thinking the various versions of Nana Vans info, was on a Thread about a picture of Vans at Dawlish behind a 9F ?

The Book? I have several.

Phil  

[markw]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

I'm probably over thinking the whole thing, however a couple of posters on this thread certainly know their stuff about these Vans and I wouldn't want to make them feel as if their advice had been wasted.

I am thinking the various versions of Nana Vans info, was on a Thread about a picture of Vans at Dawlish behind a 9F ?

The Book? I have several.

Phil  

Diagram 244 needs the top corner brackets and diagonal bracing added.

The Ratio instructions give full info on all vans that can be converted from it, including  insulated meat and fish vans.

I assume Parkside include the same instructions.

[TheCoffeePot]

Excited for these in the future but as I've started to research I've seen Geest and Fyffes aren't the only designs these wagons had. I'm wondering if anyone has further information or recognizes what this van has? It seems to read "Producers' Bananas" but I'm not sure or familiar enough to tell what banana company that is or what logo they had exactly.

 

Source is Peter on Flickr

 

[Porcy Mane]

31 minutes ago, TheCoffeePot said:

I'm wondering if anyone has further information or recognizes what this van has?

 

 "Jamaica" Banana producers warranted a mention earlier in the thread.

 

The Companies time line.

 

https://jpjamaica.com/timeline/

Edited October 22, 2022 by Porcy Mane

[Mallard60022]

19 hours ago, markw said:

Diagram 244 needs the top corner brackets and diagonal bracing added.

The Ratio instructions give full info on all vans that can be converted from it, including  insulated meat and fish vans.

I assume Parkside include the same instructions.

That's exactly what I was looking for...you are a top man. Thank you.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

On 20/10/2022 at 12:26, Mallard60022 said:

Well well, wet day activity here too.

The only thing I found this morning with direct fit of UF to Dapol Body un-altered, was I needed to alter the Brake fittings; remove 1mm of the cross brace, as I had fitted a cut down Panda floor between the frame itself, once fitted to the underside of the Van Body, on which to stick the Brakes and Vacuum Tank. 

Next one I will just fill the 'hole' in the Body bottom, as you did and then the Brakes height won't need altering or the Vacuum Tank Actuator 'prong' trimming, as they will just sit on the original floor of the Body and filler piece. 

Good find with the Truro find... any excuse!

Phil

Just a note to say that I have used a pair of 10.5 mm wheels to get the 'correct' look to the height of my Dapol /Red Panda conversion mentioned before this direct fit one, that was about 1mm to high due to me making ther UF with the Floor fitted. Doh!

Phil

[Mallard60022]

On 19/10/2022 at 15:49, Mallard60022 said:

Quick Question if I may? Dapol Body + Red Panda UF for a D 1/246 faff. How do/have people deal/t with the floor?

Red Pand UF + Floor will make the Dapol Body about 1mm too high; looks weird on dry run. 

I could use slightly smaller than 12mm Wheels; who would see that when they are running?

I could cut the 'part floor from the Dapol Body. 

I could just build the Under Frame onto the Dapol 'floor'. Latter seems easy?

Phil

I did the UF with the Floor fitted before adopting the better methods and then used smaller (10.5mm) wheels to get the height right. Not noticeable from 2'

P

[TrevorP1]

7 hours ago, TheCoffeePot said:

Excited for these in the future but as I've started to research I've seen Geest and Fyffes aren't the only designs these wagons had. I'm wondering if anyone has further information or recognizes what this van has? It seems to read "Producers' Bananas" but I'm not sure or familiar enough to tell what banana company that is or what logo they had exactly.

 

Source is Peter on Flickr

 

 

Interesting photo, One or two others in the album as well.

 

I'm just wondering if that is an LMS van there? Similar to the one on the Bluebell? To me the wheelbase looks a bit short for 10'.

 

I'm learning a lot about banana vans from this thread - the things that amuse us 😀 - in particular how relatively late *some* of the BR designs were built. For instance, I think the (Dapol) D246 is c1958/9. Shows what a good choice the SR vans are as they are quite long lived.

[Cwmtwrch]

4 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

I'm just wondering if that is an LMS van there? Similar to the one on the Bluebell? To me the wheelbase looks a bit short for 10'.

No "XP", so very likely.

 

The label in the photograph is indeed a 'Jamaica Producers' label.

[markw]

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

No "XP", so very likely.

 

The label in the photograph is indeed a 'Jamaica Producers' label.

Also no diagonal strapping so must be from lot 204 206 or 222 of D1660

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

... To me the wheelbase looks a bit short for 10'. ...

Spoked wheels are far more likely under a 9' wagon ....... though they did get swapped, of course.

 

 

 

Now, as for that E2 ?  -  the More Models Ideas thread's been rather quiet since Wednesday ...... !  🙂

Edited October 22, 2022 by Wickham Green too

[Dunsignalling]

The LMS seems to have carried on using 9' wheelbase for fitted vans and those dedicated to specific uses, e.g., meat, fruit and fish, for quite a while after the rest of the Big Four had switched to 10' or longer.

 

John

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 19/10/2022 at 15:49, Mallard60022 said:

I could cut the 'part floor from the Dapol Body. 

I could just build the Under Frame onto the Dapol 'floor'. Latter seems easy?

I filled the hole in the floor then built the Red Panda underframe straight onto the body. Unfortunately no picture available at moment but I have restored the finished photos in my Chop Shop thread.

Eric

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 03/01/2018 at 23:35, TheSignalEngineer said:

Going Retro (2) - Yes, We Have A Banana!

 

Rooting around in my bits box a while ago I found the body, minus roof, of an old HD or Wrenn Banana Van. Looking at BR Diagram 1/246 it seemed to be a fairly accurate representation, possibly one of the best products of the SD6 era, being introduced 56 years ago in 1962. For those into terminology that was definitely 'Modern Image' at the time, the real version only having been built in 1959-60.

This is an original from my HD collection.

 

 

Although Banana Vans were often seen in block trains between the docks and inland ripening sheds they did turn up on mixed freights when needing repair or when moving to where a large cargo was about to be landed.

 

Banana shipping from the West Indies was suspended in 1940 as it was deemed that they were not vital to the war effort. The first shipment post-war was to Avonmouth in December 1945. The LMS built new vans to D2111 in 1946 and this design was perpetuated by BR, albeit the later lots had 10' WB instead of the LMS 9' WB version. By 1958 over 1500 had been built in this style.

 

During 1959/60 BR built more wagons based on the standard 12T plywood sided vans with BR Clasp Vacuum Brakes. These were Diagram 1/246 There are numerous pictures of these, and some of the earlier builds, at Paul Bartlett's site http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbanana

 

I found that Red Panda had produced a suitable chassis, so made a mental note to track one down. These look good but are a bit flimsy in some quarters so careful handling is required during building.

 

Firstly I filed off the raised panels on the body sides which HD put on to make printing the number easier.

 

 

A bit of strapping detail is lost in doing this.

 

 

Next a new roof was made from styrene sheet and strip.

 

A chassis kit was duly acquired so then it was on to the next steps.

The hole in the middle of the floor was filled with a piece of 80thou styrene and the chassis was built directly onto the bottom of the body.

Due to the fairly weak nature of the thinner components I replaced the buffers with some from Dave Franks and used whitemetal clasp brakes from Wizard.

 

 

The chalk boards were fabricated from scraps of styrene sheet and strip. Note that the left-hand edge overlaps the side portion of the corrugated end and is at the same angle. This is possibly the only type of van where I have seen this. At the same time the strapping was restored below the number.

 

 

The whole thing was sprayed with Halfords Grey Plastic Primer during construction. The body sides were finished with Halfords Red Plastic Primer, which I feel is quite a good approximation for ex works Bauxite livery in the late 1950s. The chassis was done with Halfords Matt Black.

Transfers were from a Modelmaster large assorted sheet for covered vans. Unfortunately it didn't include the yellow spot, so I had to do that myself.

 

It's now just awaiting couplings and snagging before being put into traffic. At the time of my layout it was virtually ex-works so will just be dulled down a bit and the roof needs painting in its final shade.

 

(Oops! spoiler in background for on-going project)

This was my Dublo based rebuild

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The LMS seems to have carried on using 9' wheelbase ...

I think that's a little misleading : looking through the original LMS Wagons book, it's clear that most of the special purpose vans were actually built quite early - before 1930 when the LMS generally adopted 10'.

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

This was my Dublo based rebuild

Both lovely conversions matey.

Did you notice that the Red Panda Brake mouldings are not 'symmetrical'. I didn't at first, except to ensure they went in the correct way around of course. However on the second UF Build I noticed that the actual Brakes are slightly different lengths on each  moulding. Umm I thought, better check photo's. In one pic I think I saw that the outer Brake Blocks appear a little longer! Check your 5th pic and see if you agree; look at each Brake set and you have them fitted thus;

left side one, long Brake to outside; right side one, short Brake to outside. That, of course could be the correct way to fit them?

Honestly I don't think it makes any difference at all, however I must be getting a lot more panicity as I now need to do those 4 mouldings with the longer Brake to the outside! Hey ho.

Phil

Edited October 23, 2022 by Mallard60022
Brakes...pah!

[Cwmtwrch]

22 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

looking through the original LMS Wagons book, it's clear that most of the special purpose vans were actually built quite early - before 1930 when the LMS generally adopted 10'.

Which makes the 9ft of D2111 from 1946 difficult to explain, especially since it had 8-shoe clasp brakes in the latest style for VB stock...

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Which makes the 9ft of D2111 from 1946 difficult to explain, especially since it had 8-shoe clasp brakes in the latest style for VB stock...

I think it may have been infrastructure related; many LMS yards and private sidings used by their customers had Victorian wagon turntables that were probably too small to accept 10' wb wagons. The other companies may have been less dependent on them or more willing to pay for replacements.  

 

By BR days, many would have worn out and been replaced with larger ones and some of the traffic that formerly required their use might have been lost to road transport. 

 

John

Edited October 23, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

In one pic I think I saw that the outer Brake Blocks appear a little longer! Check your 5th pic and see if you agree; look at each Brake set and you have them fitted thus;

left side one, long Brake to outside; right side one, short Brake to outside. That, of course could be the correct way to fit them?

Honestly I don't think it makes any difference at all, however I must be getting a lot more panicity as I now need to do those 4 mouldings with the longer Brake to the outside! Hey ho.

Phil

Good spot Phil.

I think they should be the same length, it's probably too much glue on one end or they weren't quite central to the wheels so I bent one out and the other in. The difference doesn't show when running but I will check when I get a chance later.

[Mallard60022]

16 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Good spot Phil.

I think they should be the same length, it's probably too much glue on one end or they weren't quite central to the wheels so I bent one out and the other in. The difference doesn't show when running but I will check when I get a chance later.

Sorry SE I wasn't being an arse it's just that I am sure they are not quite the same length and not your gluing. I wondered if on the real thing they were assymetrical or if it was just a little error in the moulds?

I first noticed the anomaly on my recent builds, as I hadn't noticed a difference on the four little moulds. I was waving the Van around, checking for Buffers being horizontal, and saw the odd Brake Blocks! 

P

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

I wondered if on the real thing they were assymetrical or if it was just a little error in the moulds?

The brass etch ones look symetrical on website pictures. I had some whitemetal ones, I cant remember the make, that were slightly distorted.