Hornby announce TT:120

[Nearholmer]

37 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

In your opinion.

That’s what the phrase “I think” means, yes.

[andythenorth]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Hornby may not have been invited to the party, but it does seem to me that there must have been a party.

I suspect it was known.  Anything else requires improbably coincidences. 🙃

Edited October 12, 2022 by andythenorth

[andythenorth]

57 minutes ago, daryll said:

Wonder if Metcalfe or scalescenes ( or others ) will start to produce card kits for TT 120

 

Osborns are doing a range of laser cut buildings rescaled for TT:120 https://www.osbornsmodels.com/arch-laser-1380-c.asp

[spamcan61]

50 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Well, manufacturers had to jump one way or the other. That will satisfy some, I imagine, but not others. I would have been very interested in 3mm scale RTR with 14.2mm track, but as the appeal of 3mm is that it sat perfectly between 2mil and 4mil, giving a best of both worlds, optimal scale, I'm not really excited by the adoption of this smaller, Continental, scale.   

I too would've preferred 14.2/3mm (both in terms of physical size and availability of  rolling stock kits etc) but that isn't happening, as it wouldn't give the potential sales into Europe discussed in this thread.

Having listened to SK's interview over on WoR then I do wonder just how keen the general public will be to buy into these toy trains in 2022 as opposed to 1962 but time will tell. 

Personally I've ordered the set with MK1 coaches anyway as I'm mostly a trains in the landscape guy so I think it's worth taking a punt, for the cost of 1 OO loco.

[AY Mod]

7 hours ago, Hobby said:

How many times this phrase has been repeated over this (and other TT) threads! Yet, even though RMWeb is but a small number of railway modellers, quite a few of us have already put in orders and, as some people have pointed out we aren't even the main market Hornby are aiming at... I suspect that Hornby's marketing experts have a far better idea than us what they are expecting and are better placed to see the whole picture than a limited number of people on a model railway forum.

 

Maybe so; pop over to Mumsnet and see if they've heard of Hornby TT:120 and ask if they'd buy it for the family this Christmas.

 

  

2 hours ago, David Stannard said:

I dare say there would have had to have been a degree of collusion between a few of the manufacturers.

 

There's no evidence of that at all but it's been 'known about' in trade circles for several years with different speeds of the rumour mill ranging from "they've dropped the idea" through to "the warehouse is full of the stuff ready to go".

 

  

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Somehow HJ have got wind of some of  Hornby's list (likewise Gaugemaster's backer) and decided to carve off slices of the Hornby project for themselves.

 

Or it's giving an indication how much interest there is from the market.

 

  

7 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

I’m a little surprised they didn’t bring out a Harry Potter set to fire the markets up in this Christmas opening to the range. 

 

Careful! That's sensible thinking - as would a Santa set.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

18 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

This is kind of where I'm at. I must admit that I'm tempted by the concept but I would like a better idea of what I can actually do with it, as someone with little space. 

That’s sort of what I meant though - I think I could do things with it that I can’t really do with N or 00, yet as someone who is mainly an 009 modeller I’d also be more comfortable with a lot of aspects of TT (particularly in terms of scenery and detailing, and the overall size of the stock). The sort of layouts I build would probably work better if a few more small shunting locos were available, although in some ways not having too much to buy or becoming over-dependent on RTR may be no bad thing.

 

22 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I think the thing with T is that it's a radical step down from N in a way that Z isn't. The gauge is about a third of N, the detail (such as is possible) is barely visible. Having dabbled, the attraction of T seems to be partly the fact that you can get that "trains in the landscape" effect and partly just the novelty of something so tiny. Z, on the other hand, is trying to achieve the same thing as N, but in less space.

The difference in size between Z and N is more noticeable with the larger British N (1:148 rather than 1:160) but I see what you mean. I suppose in some ways you could apply the same logic to say that N is a radical step down from 00/H0 in a way that TT isn’t. I notice there are now some attempts to create shunting-friendly couplings for T gauge but I’m not sure it’s ever really going to be a good shunting scale - it is a bit more about building an overall scene and landscape in a small space rather than just further reducing the size of the layout you could have built in Z/N/TT/00. I think price is another factor - when introduced T was competitive with N and 00 and has continued to be fairly reasonable, whereas Z has always been very expensive, or at least perceived as such (with the exception of some of the Rokuhan stuff).

[eldomtom2]

58 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

14XX and proper GWR 4 wheel coaches lurking in the background.....

It was confirmed long ago that those were quick 3d prints used as an example.

 

49 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Add in the possibility (finally) to sell UK trains to Germany and the US, markets that both have many users who are happy to run trains from different countries but not if they are made to a different scale.

No sales for TT in the US - even more obscure of a scale there than it is here.

[D9020 Nimbus]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

So - despite more acute housing and space shortages than either the US or Germany, Britain has a much lower market share for "the smaller scales" than anywhere else. Germany supports 3 small scales (Z, N, TT) , Britain only one. But still N's British market share is barely half its share everywhere else.

Are there more acute space shortages in Germany than in Britain? From what I can tell, there are probably more space shortages in Germany. Unlike in this country, the majority of Germans live in rented apartments — there are relatively few owner-occupiers. Based on reading a few years issues of MIBA — PDFs, bought online, so I could translate the text using Google where necessary (before the publishers decided they didn't want to sell to the UK any more), the majority of large layouts are produced by clubs or by wealthy individuals who rent their layout accommodation). French people seem generally to have more room available; in the USA people either have lots of space (the "basement empire") or very little (N and modular systems, or Z).

 

The shortage of space is the reason for the success of N gauge. Many layouts increase the space available by placing the equivalent of the fiddle yard underneath the station, joined to it by a helix. That's why so many European locos have traction tyres.

 

Another big factor in Europe is the use of modular systems — particularly FREMO. This includes HO as well as N, though N appears to be the more active of the two. People build modules and then come together at meetings to put them together and run trains. Traditionally modular systems have not been popular in the UK — CJF was particularly opposed to them, as I recall — but interest, particularly in T-Trak, is growing.

 

Why is N not more popular in the UK? I think because of the years when (Poole) Farish dominated the market and you had the choice of a number of crude models — especially the steam tender locos with the tiny bogie wheels — which didn't run very well in many cases. They're not like that any more, but memories stick. Farish still do dominate the market, but there are an increasing number of other suppliers — Dapol, Sonic, Rapido and Revolution Trains. Nevertheless Bachmann Europe get 20% of their revenue from the Farish range, as opposed to 50% from OO, 18% from Liliput and the remaining 12% from other things. But you have to seek it out, though your local model shop, if you have one, is likely to stock it.

[Wayne Kinney]

Hi Guys,

 

I personally love what Hornby are doing!

 

A TT120 Finetrax range of Flexi Track and Turnouts would hopefully compliment the Hornby and Peco TT120 range very well, do you think?

 

Disclaimer: 4mm Scale pictured. But a TT120 version would look very similar!

 

I've done some actual prototyping today and results look good.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Wayne Kinney

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, TT-Pete said:

 

From 1957:

 

That is interesting and it does seem to suggest that the idea was to produce the smallest possible system for commercial British outline RTR. A couple of points stick out from a modern point of view - one is the assertion that 000 or N is too small to be practical, only a few years before Lone Star introduced Treble O Lectric (which again had its limitations, but was effectively the beginnings of N as an RTR gauge). The other is the bit about wanting to be able to use standard 00 motors - probably a more important consideration if you’re a manufacturer that usually produces 00 gauge equipment, especially at a time when nothing smaller than TT had been done in RTR. Which does all suggest that the approach this time round is slightly different, no longer trying to make model railways as small as possible but instead producing a compromise between 00 and the very small scales that have been developed since Triang TT was introduced.

Edited October 12, 2022 by 009 micro modeller

[woodenhead]

4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

The Twitter reaction has been very mixed.

I was hoping Kanye West may have an opinion, but he's been blocked, so nothing from him on Hornby's plans.

 

Elon is a bit busy trying to solve world peace so I guess his opinion piece may come in a month or two.

 

Meanwhile over on TikTok - people are still doing silly dances or posting cute animal videos, so they don't appear too agrieved by Hornby's moves.

[LBRJ]

Assuming that the largest percentage of any model railway sales end up in  cabinets, or on an archetypal 8x4 board, I  think I can see where Hornby may be going with the introduction of this range.

TT  after all stands for Table Top, and when the board size above is suitably reduced to match the scale, it is around five foot by 2foot six.

That actually is the size of a table, and would fit into a lot more domestic situations than its bigger cousin.

[AY Mod]

14 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

I've done some actual prototyping today and results look good.

 

What code rail would you use Wayne?

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

 

The thing that has killed more established companies than anything else is sitting tight in a dominant market. Every business bible exhorts the need to constantly move forward to survive. SK cannot sign off this level of investment - it is clear that at a corporate level a decision has been taken to try a grow something that will sustain in 10, 20 30 years. This doesn't mean that 00 is dead now or for many years but it is not good enough to wait until the writing is on the wall.

 

I would guess that the business case has involved all sorts of calculations on demographics, market penetration, distribution etc. There are over 28 million households in the UK. Hornby only need a tiny number of those to say 'yes' to a TT train set when 00 would be a no and they can significantly grow the market. Add in the possibility (finally) to sell UK trains to Germany and the US, markets that both have many users who are happy to run trains from different countries but not if they are made to a different scale.

 

This is a brave decision but I can see the rationale.

 

That would be illegal. It's entirely reasonable that rumours and the word on the grapevine may have got round; that's not quite the same as a secret meeting in Blofeld's Swiss hideaway by the Model Railway Illuminati

The writing is already on the wall, not for the OO modelling sector itself, but for the market share within it that Hornby considers its own, either by historical right, commercial necessity, or a need to bolster investor confidence.

 

Now, Hornby's "generalist" structure, spread across various forms of model as well as toys, means that they are unlikely to be able to compete in all respects with new leaner, more agile, competitors for whom railway models aimed at adult modellers and collectors are the day job, without other distractions or Hornby's overarching corporate costs.

 

Hornby's best railway models are easily as good as any others on the market, but their price rises over the past two or three years have moved them very close to Bachmann territory (and possibly beyond in the fairly near future). That has major implications for their competitiveness going forward that seem unlikely to be reversible.

 

One solution might be for Hornby to restructure (effectively split up the group) so that a stand-alone "Hornby Railways" might be in a position to meet the competition on more even terms. If that were practical (and acceptable to those running the business), I'd suggest they would have already done it to get out of one of their previous existential crises. 

 

TT:120 is a bold move to make Hornby's fortunes less dependent on maintaining a position in OO that will shortly become untenable, if it hasn't already done so. 

 

In SK's interview, he categorically stated that the company expects TT:120 (train sets in particular) to attract substantial numbers of buyers who wouldn't otherwise get into model railways at all. He specifically excluded the possibility of a significant switch-over by OO users. 

 

The first problem is that it's impossible to gauge the extent of Simon's expected cohort of newbies until the models are bought and paid for. The second is that, if TT:120 does take volume from OO, Hornby itself, as (still) by far the biggest player in that scale, stands to take the biggest hit.  

 

Hornby is still a "big fish", but the OO pond has been expanding and seems to have become uncomfortably roomy for them.  Will a smaller one of their own creation be more successful? Only time will tell.

 

However, it is of huge concern that the TT:120 project was planned under very different conditions than those pertaining when it needs to sell. As a result, I very much fear it may constitute make or break Hornby for reasons entirely outside their control.  

 

I truly hope it is the former. If TT:120 keeps them busy enough, they might see less need to throw their weight around in the OO playground. 🙂

 

John

Edited October 12, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[TT-Pete]

38 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

No sales for TT in the US - even more obscure of a scale there than it is here.

 

Which is ironic as it is where it originated with Hal Joyce.

 

http://www.thortrains.us/ttscale/ttdex.html

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

There was certainly collaboration between Peco, Gaugemaster and Heljan, though Heljan's commitment was the largest, given Peco can market the track in Europe, too. I get the feeling that they knew of Hornby's interest in the area, but not it’s extent or timing—or that it would ever actually happen.

 

Peco have admitted that they can't produce locos effectively in the UK at an economic price — their only attempt to do so, the Collet Goods, cost £140 back in 2008. They haven't tried it in 009, nor taken the obvious route of commissioning models from China. I was certain, given the GWR bias in Peco's offerings, that there was another partner. I was coming to the conclusion that the remaining player was Dapol. They certainly tend to have a GWR bias to their offerings, and they're capable of doing joined-up thinking too; an idea that they might have picked up from Airfix.

 

Take their initial N gauge range: 14xx and auto-trailer. Followed by 45xx/4575 and B-set. More recently they've done the same sort of thing in O. I'm still wondering if there's another part of the puzzle missing. The 57xx looks a bit like an afterthought, and it's not a loco that Hornby can have any existing work to draw on, unless they've been planning to challenge the Bachmann one in OO — a type which they've shown no interest in since Mainline introduced theirs in the 1980s. The old Triang-Hornby one isn't a good enough basis; the Dapol N gauge model is much better detailed than that (IMHO, the T-H one wasn't even a good model by the standards of the time).

[Wayne Kinney]

7 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

What code rail would you use Wayne?

 

Hi Andy,

 

It would be code 60 bullhead rail, IF this does take off. I'm only prototyping in the background for my own musings ATM. I would need full support from the 3mm Society for supply of rail IF this would/could take off...

[justin1985]

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

I think the number on the Continent interested in modelling British railways is a sm,all fraction of the total, and the number of modellers working in TT is a modest fraction of the total. (I suspect preceptions of Britain's railways - and Hornby - are especially negative in Germany. You'd find more interest in France or Poland - but TT hardly exists in France)

 

A small fraction of a small fraction amounts to almost nothing

 

P.S. I've been in French model shops . They don't have a lot of German outline on display, and the French modelling magazines are French outline online.People are very parocial in their modelling

 

I really think you'd be surprised. 

 

@Stefan88 has posted several times in this thread relating how much interest there has been in this announcement from German language forums.

 

You'll also find that Railway Modeller, and sometimes also BRM etc, are stocked in a surprising number of Presse & Buch shops at German stations. DM-Toys, the N gauge box shifter to the continent, stocks all new releases from Farish and Dapol, regularly making them the main focus for their weekly newsletter. They've even commissioned special editions of Dapol A4s (BR experimental purple blue, if I remember).

 

More broadly, just take a look at broader rail enthusiast social media in German and French, or broader European rail enthusiast social media in English. Views are often more nuanced and positive than you might expect, e.g.:

I've even stumbled across an interesting Japanese YouTube channel reviewing British N! 

 

 

The fog in the channel might not be as thick as you imagine...

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

IF

 

Big IF heard and understood! It'll be worth compatibility testing once the other products are out. 

[britishcolumbian]

45 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

No sales for TT in the US - even more obscure of a scale there than it is here.

It is obscure on this side of the pond but awareness is growing over the past decade. Vancouver has become something of a hotspot for NA TT, our group has gone to several NMRA national meets and are always at shows in this area. And the comments we constantly hear are "this is such a great size, I'd be interested if there were more RTR". If Hornby have some success, it could spur someone like Athearn (or whoever) to roll the dice, too.

[APOLLO]

43 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

There's no evidence of that at all but it's been 'known about' in trade circles for several years with different speeds of the rumour mill ranging from "they've dropped the idea" through to "the warehouse is full of the stuff ready to go".

 

They DO have a warehouse full of TT120 track, Simon spoke those exact words in his video on page 1 of this thread. "Pointless" (!!!) releasing RTR stock without track.

 

As to fine scale pointwork etc mentioned above that will depend on what wheel standards / profiles they have chosen. Little mention of it on this thread other than guestimates based on photos / videos.

 

I'm a bit "the other way round" here hoping that Hornbys new TT120 wheels are not too fine, therefore their new track / points will allow me to run my old Triang TT3 on it. As mentioned before I will buy a bit to test as soon as available. 

 

I agree its a huge risk for Hornby announcing this range in this current time of economic stress. Not really their fault as this could not have been foreseen a few years or so when the corporate decision was made to go ahead with TT120.

 

Times are changing. Many old boomers will not be here in several years time, younger people (modellers) always want something new (and increasingly something affordable) perhaps TT120 in the UK will thrive - time will tell.

 

Again good luck Hornby, I'm in for a bit of track at least.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[eldomtom2]

1 minute ago, britishcolumbian said:

If Hornby have some success, it could spur someone like Athearn (or whoever) to roll the dice, too.

Maybe. But Hornby should not be expecting US sales.

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

It is obscure on this side of the pond but awareness is growing over the past decade. Vancouver has become something of a hotspot for NA TT, our group has gone to several NMRA national meets and are always at shows in this area. And the comments we constantly hear are "this is such a great size, I'd be interested if there were more RTR". If Hornby have some success, it could spur someone like Athearn (or whoever) to roll the dice, too.

I saw a US TT layout at an exhibition in the UK earlier this year - Naples Street. I thought that was great, very interesting, detailed and quite colourful. I think it’s on RMWeb somewhere as well.

[TrainMan2001]

1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

No sales for TT in the US - even more obscure of a scale there than it is here.

I know I'm only one person, but I'm in the US, and I was tempted by TT when Peco made their announcement. This just makes it a little harder to resist. Plus, at model railway shows here, there are usually a couple of European models or layouts on display (one of the ones I've seen was even TT scale). I figure there'll be at least a small market here.

[murphaph]

Here is one of Germany's biggest online retailers sites. Currently 18 pages of 00 GB items listed from several manufacturers:

https://www.modellbahnunion.com/Spur-H0-00.htm?a=catalog&p=802&filter=k3274g3332p3428

 

There is clearly demand in Germany for GB stuff or this shop wouldn't stock it.