Hornby announce TT:120

[CloggyDog]

7 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

I think you need to look at the Tillig range there are pages of it, menus on the left  😉 

 

https://www.tillig.com/Lokomotiven.html

 

 

Not just Piko and Tillig, but also Kühn, MTB and a thriving cottage industry in Czechia supporting TT. 

 

Across the former Eastern bloc, I think TT is 2nd only to H0 in popularity and that market even supports duplicates of some loco and stock types. 

 

 

[TomE]

18 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I think you're another one that didn't watch the video and look at the information Hornby highlighted as the reasons for going down this route. N gauge is too small was definitely mentioned as was the closer scale/gauge ratio.

No no, I sat through every excruciating minute of it. 

 

9 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Put simply I don't understand why the market  for small-scale model railways in Britain should be so much smaller than in everywhere else - Germany, the US, Sweden, Switzerland Poland, etc etc

 

Britain is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe. The  noose on space is tightening. Surely there should be an increasing demand for smaller scales??

 

I take the point that there's been an N gauge renaissance since 2000. But 9 years in, N gauge was still at only 10% . (perhaps it was only 7-8% in the last years of Poole-era Farish???)  N may have gained a bit of market share since, but still it's way below levels in other markets.

 

In German-speaking markets TT and Z are competing with N for the small-scale buyer. Even then , N has nearly twice the market share in Germany it has here

 

So there is untapped potential for a small scale in Britain. N doesn't quite seem to have cracked it.

 

Z plods along in Germany as essentially a Maerklin niche product. Poole-era Farish shows a scale can function with a single producer even in the face of a limited range and lower quality. So the idea of a niche scale dominated by Hornby is perfectly viable

 

I don't expect TT-120 to get as big as N . But there seems to be a slice of the market that hasn't really got the space to do 4mm but can't accept N.

 

Get even half that target group into TT-120 , along with some working age newcomers , and you are looking at 5-7% market share. More than enough to make this project viable

 

I'm not sure where "Railroad level product" came from . We've only seen a few photos of about 5 items, so assessments of what the product level is are preliminary . How do these models stack up against N gauge equivalents ? That's the question that matters. Saying they aren't up to the level of the best high-fidelity new 4mm RTR isn't relevant. Current N gauge RTR isn't either. You expect less detail in a much smaller scale

 

It’s clear from the available photos of the products this is not a highly detailed range comparable to the latest OO models from Accurascale, Bachmann and even some in Hornby’s own OO range. 
 

As for N, this is a sample for the forthcoming N Gauge Class 59 from Revolution Trains. Current RTR N isn’t up to the same levels of fidelity as OO? Maybe not quite yet, but it’s snapping at its heals. 
 

 

I do take the point someone made about couplings. The Rapido coupler is certainly one of the weakest points of N, but there are at least some alternatives now, and the tension lock is not exactly OO’s crowning achievement either in many people’s eyes. 
 

Only time will tell if Hornby can make TT work for them, and although I question the logic and motives behind this move, I certainly wouldn’t want it to be the thing that brings about the end of Hornby, especially given the importance of the name to the Model Railway hobby in the UK.

 

Tom. 

[Robin Brasher]

18 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

The description for the "Easterner" train set on the Hornby website says

 

 

Funnily, it doesn't mention the points for the siding, or the trakmat...

 

 

Thank you for the information. I am planning to buy the oval separately and I don't want to end up with two radius 3 circuits. The Hornby website does not seem to mention a TT8027 Power Connecting Clip either.

 

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

I think you're another one that didn't watch the video and look at the information Hornby highlighted as the reasons for going down this route. N gauge is too small was definitely mentioned as was the closer scale/gauge ratio.

 

But, of course, the unspoken truth is that Hornby left it 15 years too late to have a proper go at the N gauge market.  The only way they would have entered the market, is like this, and now they would be looking at every single item being a duplicate of an existing high detail model from the established competition.  They'd be absolutely crucified.  With TT they can rule the (UK) nest...

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

My take on the OO market is that it is nowhere near saturated, I don't think new entrants would be so keen to get involved if it were. However, it has changed, and the market for Hornby's "favourite things" may well be.

 

From my standpoint, the OO scene looks more dynamic than it has in years, and I have loads of stuff on pre-order. However, the nearest I'm approaching big, green, and named is an Accurascale Manor, and a Jones Goods from Rapido. My current Hornby pre-orders amount to just one loco, the least in (my) living memory. 

 

I suspect that, as the younger, smaller fish have been eating more of the available food, Hornby are finding that what's left of their former share of the OO pool is no longer supporting them in the manner to which they are accustomed.    

 

Hornby isn't going to give up on OO any time soon, but they probably need an alternative income stream to balance out market share they have lost/anticipate losing in that sector.

 

John

In many respects I agree with you John but one thing sticks in my mind.  Looking at what we know about sales from publicly available information Hornby's total UK sales for their year ended March 2022 were £37.7 million although we don't know how much of that was model railway related items.  But it's probably fair to guess, especially once prices are taken into account, that their model railway sales are well in excess of £20 million.

 

Not everyone in the business declares their sales or turnover in their accounts but Bachmann Europe (taking their UK sales - which includes things like Woodland Scenics) plus Peco (excluding publications) managed £20.9 million between them in their most recent accounts (Bachmannn to end December 2021, Peco to end March 2021).  Even when you add in everyone else - no figures available - it's not only clear that Hornby is by far the predominant brand in the marketplace but it's also not at all unlikely that it might be getting as much as 50% or even much more as its market share by value.   Which suggests they might not have too much to fear if they can maintain that position.

 

I don't argue one bit with them innovation by widening their reach into anew market area - in fact I've long been suggesting that is what they needed to do anyway.  Nor am I in the least surprised that it's a form of TT, that's been on the cards for quite a while and is a market they were sounding 5 years ago or even earlier.  so all good stuff.  My main concern at this stage is whether they are throwing too much at it and what that will do to their investment capabilities elsewhere, especially in 00.  Time will tell.

[Geep7]

21 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

My take on the OO market is that it is nowhere near saturated, I don't think new entrants would be so keen to get involved if it were.

Quite. How many untapped models are there to be done? Maybe not locomotives, but rolling stock, DMU's? If Hornby announced, for instance, a OO Class 120, i'm pretty sure we'd all be, a. shocked and b. straight on a site pre-ordering it. (I'd rather Bachmann, Heljan or Revolution did it Class 120 though of course)

Edited October 13, 2022 by Geep7

[Dunsignalling]

21 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

In many respects I agree with you John but one thing sticks in my mind.  Looking at what we know about sales from publicly available information Hornby's total UK sales for their year ended March 2022 were £37.7 million although we don't know how much of that was model railway related items.  But it's probably fair to guess, especially once prices are taken into account, that their model railway sales are well in excess of £20 million.

 

Not everyone in the business declares their sales or turnover in their accounts but Bachmann Europe (taking their UK sales - which includes things like Woodland Scenics) plus Peco (excluding publications) managed £20.9 million between them in their most recent accounts (Bachmannn to end December 2021, Peco to end March 2021).  Even when you add in everyone else - no figures available - it's not only clear that Hornby is by far the predominant brand in the marketplace but it's also not at all unlikely that it might be getting as much as 50% or even much more as its market share by value.   Which suggests they might not have too much to fear if they can maintain that position.

 

I don't argue one bit with them innovation by widening their reach into anew market area - in fact I've long been suggesting that is what they needed to do anyway.  Nor am I in the least surprised that it's a form of TT, that's been on the cards for quite a while and is a market they were sounding 5 years ago or even earlier.  so all good stuff.  My main concern at this stage is whether they are throwing too much at it and what that will do to their investment capabilities elsewhere, especially in 00.  Time will tell.

 

Indeed, Mike, but my thought is that your guesstimate of a 50% share of OO sales by value (pretty much my thinking, too) may well be (a) significantly lower than it once was, and (b) less than Hornby needs it to be.  

 

John

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[franciswilliamwebb]

18 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

plus there's a big red 'ignore' button at the top of the page.

I’ve always ignored that 🤪

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

...and anyway there are plenty of alternatives even if you go with good old Spratts.

 

Mixed Ovals ?

 

Brit15

[Ravenser]

29 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I'm not sure that the ex-Lima class 66 qualifies as high-fidelity cutting-edge 4mm, though😅

 

We have not seen what the TT-120 class 66 will look like. For starters - what is the mechanism ? Centre-motor , all wheel drive and pick up? With lights?

 

Its worth pointing out that Hornby do not have CAD for the Lima 66 . They have the moulds. (They also have licencing and livery rights) Therefore they will have to develop the model from scratch.

 

Since this is the one item in the range which has genuine market potential on the Continent, it's reasonable to expect them to put a bit of effort into it . It will certainly appear in Arnold boxes at some point.

 

At this point we can't make statements like "the 66 will be a basic Railroad-quality model".

 

The key comparison for the 66 is - how does it stack up against the Dapol and Farish 66s in N??  If it looks and runs better than they do - Hornby have something they can sell.

 

The market for TT-120 is "people who can't hope to run a 66 in OO cos they haven't got space"

 

I can't run one in 4mm. The Bachmann 66 I have is buried at the bottom of a pile of boxes and has rin once in ever a decade , since I dropped out of a club project. Blacklade is 8'6" long , and a 66 is too big to do anything sensible

 

 

But I can run one in N, on a layout only 6' long . In fact I could run several....

 

So what Hornby have to compete with in TT120  is this:

 

 

Outside a club layout, most modellers cannot sensibly run big modern stock in 4mm in an authentic manner. It demands too much space .

 

Saying that Hornby's TT-120 Class 66 will not hold a candle to Hatton's hi-spec  66 in OO or their intended Cl 31 to Accurascale's 31s in OO is irrelevant. What matters is whether TT-120 can show a significant advantage over what's in the second picture

 

Can you shunt better with a Farish 08 and N gauge couplings or a Hornby TT-120 08 and TT couplings?

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

I've never really understood why the move to O gauge from OO when one gets older and can't see the detail in the models.  Its seems more logical to go smaller and not see the flaws 🤔

 

People want more for less.

 

if your getting a loco 2x the size for 1.5x the price it starts looking attractive.

 

Hornby’s TTs proposition is your getting less, for less.. (of course it depends if that is sustainable, in Europe it is not and TT is close to if not exceeding HO prices).

 

 

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Why isn't there a TT-120 replacement for the rock bottom starter sets in 00? (currently start around £80)

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9343153?clickSR=slp:term:Hornby train sets:2:23:1

 

e.g. basic 4 wheel tank or diesel, 2 or 3 x wagons or 2 or 3 x 4 wheel coaches, complete with a basic controller and some track?

 

Or have I missed it?

 

My first train set was a Tri-ang TT3 Jinty with 2 suburban coaches and an oval of track, no controller but it did have a small bottle of oil included.

 

Brit15

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Do you seriously think Hornby haven't thought this through and have an understanding of the basics of how a business operates, market research, financial backing etc, etc.

I don't know the ins and outs personally but I'm sure a multi-million pound operation like Hornby do.

 

Titfield Thunderbolt ?

[phil gollin]

.

 

When will the range of track be expanded to include OHE and third rail options ?

 

🤣   🤣   🤣

 

 

 

(  See below at my signature bar  for just a few options for OO locos.  )

.

Edited October 13, 2022 by phil gollin

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Indeed, Mike, but my thought is that your guesstimate of a 50% share of OO sales by value (pretty much my thinking, too) may well be (a) significantly less than it once was, and (b) less than Hornby needs it to be.  

 

John

Quite agree John.   I think that both the availability of money spent into the hobby has decreased as other things have come along to spend it on and there are now more people after a share of it than was the case only a decade ago (or even more recently).  so obviously Hornby's overall share of what we spend will have reduced if we have spent some of our money elsewhere although in both your case and mine I know that we spend on particular themes so that too affects where our money goes when it comes to new items.

 

But one thing about TT120 is that it won't necessarily increase the size of the overall cake of money spent in the hobby.  Most people on here who have mentioned ordering TT120 seem to already have models in another scale so it is simply a diversion of that mone,.  However if going into TT120 stops them spending 00 money with people other than Hornby then Hornby have a win  - that is where innovation works.  Innovation will also work, very much in Hornby's favour, if it increases the size of the cake by causing more money to be spent and Hornby get it for TT120.  So there are two good avenues to potential extra revenue - it really comes down to whether or not they can overcome the inertia of existing r-t-r scales and actually create a totally new market bringing new spend into the hobby.

[APOLLO]

42 minutes ago, thetrains said:

just seem to be going round in circles 

 

Just as Hornby has designed TT120 to do !!!!!!

 

Brit15

[spamcan61]

2 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

The market for TT-120 is "people who can't hope to run a 66 in OO cos they haven't got space"

 

Partially, SK also states in the WoR interview that they're aiming at the kind of people who consider models costing 200 quid or more as "Having a laugh" hence TT:120 is pitched at a lower cost point. Was almost a Rather moment IMHO.

 

Starting from scratch they can at least pitch products at a consistent price/quality ratio without having to market things as 'Railroad' or 'design clever' 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

 

I don't understand why they keep pushing that thing in particular instead of the M62, still so many variants they haven't done of Sergei, whereas Ludmilla has already shown off all her dresses by now...

Roco has it, but they have sold out

https://www.roco.cc/rde/produkte/lokomotiven/diesellokomotiven/36520-diesellokomotive-rh-t-6791-csd.html

 

[BRTrainz]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

I saw a response from Hornby on FB stating they knew and would be fixed in production.

Good, will probably go ahead and preorder then.

[Ravenser]

19 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

Quite. How many untapped models are there to be done? Maybe not locomotives, but rolling stock, DMU's? If Hornby announced, for instance, a OO Class 120, i'm pretty sure we'd all be, a. shocked and b. straight on a site pre-ordering it. (I'd rather Bachmann, Heljan or Revolution did it Class 120 though of course)

 

It would cost nearly £300 , and it would only fit into one of my 3 platforms . Consequently I'm not at all sure I would.

 

And I'm the target market. I have a 1980s DMU based OO layout. 

 

Multiple units over 2 car have become a real sticking point in OO. Costs have risen to the point they are prohibitively expensive. And people struggle to accomodate things like 4 car EMUS

 

Bachmann have let their range of post privatisation DMUs drift out of the catalogue. The 158 is back, at a cost, but the Voyager does not look to be coming back. And that was a 4-5 car InterCity train

 

The heady days of 4-CEPs, 4-VEPs , Blue Pullmans and Voyagers seem to have gone

 

If you want to run MUs, in multiple - you need space. That means a smaller scale

[rogerzilla]

You can get away with Railroad-levels of detail in TT or N, and it still looks good.  Must be cheaper, with fewer separate parts to fit.  Stuff like valve gear can be simplified, too.  I use N and OO but I stick to diesel for N - it's easier to handle "boxes on wheels" at that size, and OO is much better for seeing working motion on steam locos.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

If Roco's and Tillig's (newer) TT products are an indicator, the quality should be pretty close to what one would expect from most H0.

I dont find Roco or Tillig quality very often in the UK… in any scale.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Partially, SK also states in the WoR interview that they're aiming at the kind of people who consider models costing 200 quid or more as "Having a laugh" hence TT:120 is pitched at a lower cost point. Was almost a Rather moment IMHO.

 

Starting from scratch they can at least pitch products at a consistent price/quality ratio without having to market things as 'Railroad' or 'design clever' 

 

Problem is, if Hornby's prices for TT:120 escalate at a similar rate to their OO ones, it won't be too long before those locos hit £200. 

[adb968008]

44 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

 

Not just Piko and Tillig, but also Kühn, MTB and a thriving cottage industry in Czechia supporting TT. 

 

Across the former Eastern bloc, I think TT is 2nd only to H0 in popularity and that market even supports duplicates of some loco and stock types. 

 

 

So is vodka, Eurovision and eating horsemeat.

 

Doesnt mean it will be popular here, I mean what share of Eastern Europe uses OO ?

 

Just because OO is successful here doesnt mean launching a OO range of PKP locomotives will be successful over there.

 

its a meaningless comparison.

[Dunsignalling]

35 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

Quite. How many untapped models are there to be done? Maybe not locomotives, but rolling stock, DMU's? If Hornby announced, for instance, a OO Class 120, i'm pretty sure we'd all be, a. shocked and b. straight on a site pre-ordering it. (I'd rather Bachmann, Heljan or Revolution did it Class 120 though of course)

 

TBH, if anyone credible were to announce a Class 120, I'd order one straight away without looking at the price, and probably a second after I had!  😃

 

John