Hornby announce TT:120

[The Stationmaster]

Hornby do face a slight problem with TT120 in that in order to encourage market interest they clearly realise that they have to offer a range of models,  So they have made it clear from Day 1 that they are committed to do that by providing a list and indicated roughly what will appear in what order in that list.  Whether the list was a quickie or more carefully thought through we don't know but also within any company like this there will be discussion as a range is developed and priorities might change a bit.  Fr example they might find it quicker to produce something where the already have plenty of information than something which needsa lot of new research.

 

Plus there is the inevitable problems in design - and we've seen enough of those in The Hornby Show in y tv if if they were presented in a rather falsified atmosphere.  But no doubt potential design difficulties can emerge and might affect production costs and hence marketability.  So things could change a bit.

 

But what remains very clear is commitment to the range.  So it might not be exactly what was promised when it was promised but that all important commitment is there.

[J-Lewis]

My Hornby TT club pack arrived this morning.  Hopefully my Easterner set won’t be too far behind.  :)

[Michanglais]

Something strange has happened in my railway world... 

 

Since I bought my A4 and maroon Mk1s as 'stand-ins' for diesel and electric releases, I've had an unexpected revelation... I rather like steam locos! 

 

My TT:120 is literally going to be my loop of Tillig snap-track for the floor, displays and, possibly, a 'period-neutral' (as far as that is possible) countryside diorama. 

 

Heresy! - I don't care what loco/era/region/stock-type goes with what, I'm just going to go ahead and buy what I like the look of. I'm SK's dream customer!

 

Eventually, I'll be going with pre-fitted sound locos, but given the fairly small additional cost of adding sound at a later stage, and my impatience to wait for summer (autumn...?) pre-fitted locos, I think I'm going to have a spending spree on what's available currently. 

 

I think I'm looking at a rake of Pullmans and 'Night Hawk'. Might as well make use of that 15% discount (I signed up in October 2022 so most of the stuff I thought I was waiting for would be coming out after then and I'll have to do some maths to see whether it's cheaper to buy from German stockists or Hornby direct - with renewed club membership - in the future). Also, those potentially lowered 'introductory prices' to be taken advantage of (scandalous comment!) and to top it all off, the fact that my two deliveries to France have arrived DDP (not to be mixed up with DPD!), no questions asked.

 

Out with the credit card!

 

 

 

[Les1952]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Hornby do face a slight problem with TT120 in that in order to encourage market interest they clearly realise that they have to offer a range of models,  So they have made it clear from Day 1 that they are committed to do that by providing a list and indicated roughly what will appear in what order in that list.  Whether the list was a quickie or more carefully thought through we don't know but also within any company like this there will be discussion as a range is developed and priorities might change a bit.  Fr example they might find it quicker to produce something where the already have plenty of information than something which needsa lot of new research.

 

Plus there is the inevitable problems in design - and we've seen enough of those in The Hornby Show in y tv if if they were presented in a rather falsified atmosphere.  But no doubt potential design difficulties can emerge and might affect production costs and hence marketability.  So things could change a bit.

 

But what remains very clear is commitment to the range.  So it might not be exactly what was promised when it was promised but that all important commitment is there.

 

We know from SK's comments on the Hornby videos, and from snippets in the TT club mag and other places that Hornby have published that there are (at least) three designers working on TT:120.  We also know from the Model World TV programmes that Hornby put a designer full tome onto one project until it goes into tooling at which point they move (part time?) onto other things and come back to do mods as tooling samples arrive.  We have also seen different projects having different technical problems.

 

From the evidence they've presented even if there is a set sequence of starting each item in the scale it is fairly obvious that there will be some that leapfrog other others.  Looking at the loco list the 57xx seems to be the one where they might not have got a good library of measurements in stock.  We know from what SK has said that the 08 is more complex than it looks at first- which will have slowed it down.  

 

Their aim is still to do two releases per year, but it does look as if some release 3 stuff may arrive before some release 2, and so on down the line.  At least we aren't waiting as long as we did for the Farish J72 (was that six years from announcement to cancellation?) or Dapol's Bulleid pacifics in N- which might arrive before the tenth anniversary of their announcement.

 

Hornby needed to set out their stall with a decent range of stuff in the pipeline for the scale to take off at all.  They are trying to deliver.  I will start to lose a bit of patience if I don't have a J94 in my hands by Spring 2024.

 

Of course if this sabre rattling by the US and China develops beyond just that everything could change.  Sanctions would stop the flow- remember that we trade with China in US Dollars.  Let us hope it is no more than sabre rattling.

 

Les

 

[Porfuera]

9 hours ago, Les1952 said:

We know from what SK has said that the 08 is more complex than it looks at first- which will have slowed it down.

 

They recently updated the online shop with new images of the 08s but unfortunately the models they've used are those livery samples from January (or earlier?) that had the ladders on them. I can only assume that there aren't more up-to-date pre-production examples available yet. Nice to have images of the real thing but you would have thought that someone would have removed the ladders first - I'm sure they must be aware that the ladders shouldn't be there on those examples.

 

Cheers, Neil.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Porfuera

[Roy L S]

12 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

We know from SK's comments on the Hornby videos, and from snippets in the TT club mag and other places that Hornby have published that there are (at least) three designers working on TT:120.  We also know from the Model World TV programmes that Hornby put a designer full tome onto one project until it goes into tooling at which point they move (part time?) onto other things and come back to do mods as tooling samples arrive.  We have also seen different projects having different technical problems.

 

From the evidence they've presented even if there is a set sequence of starting each item in the scale it is fairly obvious that there will be some that leapfrog other others.  Looking at the loco list the 57xx seems to be the one where they might not have got a good library of measurements in stock.  We know from what SK has said that the 08 is more complex than it looks at first- which will have slowed it down.  

 

Their aim is still to do two releases per year, but it does look as if some release 3 stuff may arrive before some release 2, and so on down the line.  At least we aren't waiting as long as we did for the Farish J72 (was that six years from announcement to cancellation?) or Dapol's Bulleid pacifics in N- which might arrive before the tenth anniversary of their announcement.

 

Hornby needed to set out their stall with a decent range of stuff in the pipeline for the scale to take off at all.  They are trying to deliver.  I will start to lose a bit of patience if I don't have a J94 in my hands by Spring 2024.

 

Of course if this sabre rattling by the US and China develops beyond just that everything could change.  Sanctions would stop the flow- remember that we trade with China in US Dollars.  Let us hope it is no more than sabre rattling.

 

Les

 

Hi Les

 

I don't think anything in Hornby's sequence of designing a model is new or different from another manufacturer, but I feel pretty sure what we have seen in the Hornby TV series is a somewhat modified and indeed needs to be as it is primarily for entertainment. For example the "I think an XYZ123 loco would be a good idea" would be much more in depth, with costings and sales projections rather than "OK sounds good let's do it" being the basis of a decision. Similarly I find it unlikely that one person would work exclusively on a single project from end to end, they would work on other things too, and I think it is fair to conclude that a degree of what is broadcast reflects a somewhat utopian version of the world for the camera. 

 

Turning to the 08, right at launch of TT120 there were pictures of what I understood to be undecorated samples and so by that stage the technical issues would have been ironed out. That said, there is actually nothing that sophisticated about the spec of the model anyway, in fact it looks very basic with a cheap 6 pin decoder socket and 3 pole can-motor. There are no lights, no Next 18 socket, no provision for sound, so a relatively simple model for any manufacturer worth their salt. Another consideration is that for Hornby to have claimed it would be arriving around the time of the second TT120 Mag (it says so in it) then any issues of design would have been in the rear-view mirror and to meet that timeframe it would have already been in production when the range was launched. As Neil rightly says above, to date we are still seeing deco samples with ladders on them, so unless they have been approved for production like this, we are yet to actually see any production models. Obviously Hornby will not be immune from manufacturing issues in China, and that being the case, much better to err on the side of caution in what is made public. For an April/May delivery to be achieved the models must already be manufactured, packaged and on the boat, yet that hasn't been said by anyone as far as I am aware and final models haven't been seen...

 

The difference between the TT120 situation and Farish/Dapol examples you provide above (annoying and bad for reputation as both were/are) is that N was then a very well-established scale, neither was looking to promote a new scale from scratch with the models you mention part of the launch-range.

 

At the risk of another romp into "cliche land" it is said that you never get a second-chance to make a first impression, and people's patience will only last so long, so far there has been a lot of "spin" and comparatively little delivered, so for me (and many) the jury is still out. I hope Hornby pull it out of the bag, nobody wants to see the venture fizzle out..

 

As to your J94s Les, as we sit here now at the start of April 2023, we only know that one 0-6-0 is (maybe) in tooling but not whether this is the 57xx, J94 or something else, so knowing what we do about lead-times for development and production of models in general, Spring 2024 would look like a pretty optimistic timeframe. Personally I would love it if an 0-6-0 was delivered by then (not fussed which of the two although a 57xx has more utility) but I am not holding my breath, hence my decision to "park" the TT120 layout plans for now.

 

Roy

 

 

[natterjack]

57 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

as we sit here now at the start of April 2023, we only know that one 0-6-0 is (maybe) in tooling

The Hornby launch for Christmas 22/23 was somewhat disrupted by the well known balance weights issue and I think you can place fair bets the same will not be repeated for 23/24. My money would be on a goods freight train set and I suspect an 0-6-0 will be available for the start of the buying period around Autumn this year.

[Porfuera]

3 hours ago, Roy L S said:

to date we are still seeing deco samples with ladders on them, so unless they have been approved for production like this, we are yet to actually see any production models.

 

I have this image in my head of a person sitting alone in a small room in a factory in China surrounded by several thousand boxed up TT:120 Class 08s. They are slowly unboxing them one at a time and carefully removing the ladders from each one... 🙄

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Porfuera

[Roy L S]

2 minutes ago, natterjack said:

The Hornby launch for Christmas 22/23 was somewhat disrupted by the well known balance weights issue and I think you can place fair bets the same will not be repeated for 23/24. My money would be on a goods freight train set and I suspect an 0-6-0 will be available for the start of the buying period around Autumn this year.

If the first 0-6-0 steam loco is only just being tooled (as SK has from all accounts said) unless there is another such steam model being secretly developed that is close to production, then I wouldn't think that very likely within the timeframe.  The only prospect of a goods set for the Autumn that looks likely would (I would suggest) involve the 08 shunter, and I do recall that SK didn't seem to rule out the possibility of a smaller set involving that loco at some point when asked. 

[Porfuera]

54 minutes ago, natterjack said:

The Hornby launch for Christmas 22/23 was somewhat disrupted by the well known balance weights issue and I think you can place fair bets the same will not be repeated for 23/24. My money would be on a goods freight train set and I suspect an 0-6-0 will be available for the start of the buying period around Autumn this year.

 

I would dearly love to believe you are right but (for example) the TTAs are currently now scheduled for Winter 2023-2024 and they are just wagons (i.e. no motors, no electronics) so in theory much easier to produce/release than a loco but they have slipped by three months at least. And the 21T minerals are going to be six months late, I think.

 

I hope I'm wrong but I really can't believe they will have a previously-unannounced loco out by Autumn. Also, a freight train set would require a complementary set of era-compatible wagons - currently there are only Era 4 vans and a brake van that could be used in a set with (say) a green or black 08, no opens or anything else (unless you count the 21T minerals but they appear to have TOPS codes). And presumably even a green or black 08 would require weeks if not months of back and forth to sort out the livery and printing.

 

A new loco or set is the sort of thing that SK would be talking about in order to keep the momentum up (and I wouldn't blame him for that) but even the latest TT:120 news email sent out a few days ago only mentioned some sound-fitted steamers will be arriving soon - absolutely no mention of further rolling stock (that should already be here) or anything else.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Porfuera

[Roy L S]

26 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

I would dearly love to believe you are right but (for example) the TTAs are currently now scheduled for Winter 2023-2024 and they are just wagons (i.e. no motors, no electronics) so in theory much easier to produce/release than a loco but they have slipped by three months at least.

 

And I really can't believe they will have a previously-unannounced loco out by Autumn. Also, a freight train set would require a complementary set of era-compatible wagons - currently there are only Era 4 vans and a brake van that could be used in a set with (say) a green or black 08, no opens or anything else (unless you count the 21T minerals but they appear to have TOPS codes).

 

A new loco or set is the sort of thing that SK would be talking about in order to keep the momentum up (and I wouldn't blame him for that) but even the latest TT:120 news email sent out a few days ago only mentioned some sound-fitted steamers will be arriving soon - absolutely no mention of further rolling stock (that should already be here) or anything else.

Given what we are told about the target demographic, I wouldn't be surprised (looking at some of the OO entry sets) if there is less concern about wagons/loco being era-compatible. It would be nice if there were, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it.

 

I am left wondering if demand and further runs of the launch sets has impacted production capacity for other things, from one perspective (the trainset market) this could be viewed as a good thing, but from another (modellers wanting a range of products) not. However this is just a thought, I am not saying  it IS the case.

[Jeff Smith]

As they say over here we are all Monday morning quarterbacks when it comes to speculating on Hornby's business efforts.  The programme it launched has been far more complex than just a loco and a few wagons and a coach or two like some other manufacturers.  Hornby likes to position itself as a total system supplier so although the track appears to be a collaboration the structures are all Hornby requiring design input.  Ultimately it is setting out to duplicate it's OO system in TT:120, almost, you might say, like re-inventing the wheel.  Whilst we sit in judgement of it's releases so far and perhaps complain (guilty as charged) about vehicle and livery choices and availability dates, we must appreciate the financial and reputational risks involved.

[natterjack]

2 hours ago, Roy L S said:

If the first 0-6-0 steam loco is only just being tooled

I didn't make any mention of the motive power- the 08 is an 0-6-0 and its chassis is likely to be quite bashable (time to start looking at suitable 3D conversions?).

 

Me? I'm sill waiting for that Castle to move beyond a photoshop taster.

[Roy L S]

30 minutes ago, natterjack said:

I didn't make any mention of the motive power- the 08 is an 0-6-0 and its chassis is likely to be quite bashable 

Not with outside frames and flycranks it won't. Aside from a few early 0-6-0 types from the l8kes of Sturrock, Kirtley etc, as  steam loco chassis applications will actually be pretty limited I would say.

[Porfuera]

39 minutes ago, natterjack said:

I didn't make any mention of the motive power- the 08 is an 0-6-0

 

That's a very good point - and neither did SK when he mentioned the two 0-6-0s at the end of January.

 

I think at that time everyone was assuming that the 08s were already in production and maybe even already on the boat on their way here. So maybe the one he mentioned as being in tooling was actually the 08 - in which case that would only leave one other...

[natterjack]

19 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

Not with outside frames and flycranks it won't

Frankly, i would be far more focused on the wheelbase and the opportunities offered by that.

[Jeff Smith]

17 minutes ago, natterjack said:

Frankly, i would be far more focused on the wheelbase and the opportunities offered by that.

Great until you want to fit coupling rods so now you're looking at re-wheeling!

[natterjack]

9 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Great until you want to fit coupling rods so now you're looking at re-wheeling!

That's what kit bashing is all about- otherwise wait until perfection turns up at your door.

[Roy L S]

2 hours ago, natterjack said:

That's what kit bashing is all about- otherwise wait until perfection turns up at your door.

 

To an extent I would agree, but there has to be a degree of suitability in the first place. The 08 has quite a lot of internal volume to the body and I would be amazed if that is not exploited to the full for traction-weight, in which case the chassis wouldn't be a lot of good for anything bar a very large saddle-tank and possibly not even that.

[Roy L S]

3 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

That's a very good point - and neither did SK when he mentioned the two 0-6-0s at the end of January.

 

I think at that time everyone was assuming that the 08s were already in production and maybe even already on the boat on their way here. So maybe the one he mentioned as being in tooling was actually the 08 - in which case that would only leave one other...

 

Judging by the deco-samples that have been produced and Hornby's own customer service desk advising me of delivery end May/start of June independently of what SK has said, personally, I feel reasonably confident the 08 has been tooled and production is either finished or close to it.  Put it this way, if this isn't the case and that came out after all that has been said, the harm it would do to the credibility of Hornby and TT120 could be pretty damaging and I don't think they would risk that. 

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Roy L S said:

 

Judging by the deco-samples that have been produced and Hornby's own customer service desk advising me of delivery end May/start of June independently of what SK has said, personally, I feel reasonably confident the 08 has been tooled and production is either finished or close to it.  Put it this way, if this isn't the case and that came out after all that has been said, the harm it would do to the credibility of Hornby and TT120 could be pretty damaging and I don't think they would risk that. 

 

Agreed. But the point I was trying to make (probably very badly) was that at the end of January SK mentioned two 0-6-0s and at that time I think everyone was assuming that this was in addition to the Class 08 because we all thought that the Class 08 was on its way and would be arriving in February. So where people have been talking about a 57xx and a J94 arriving some soon then maybe it will only one of these.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Porfuera

[Roy L S]

14 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Agreed. But the point I was trying to make (probably very badly) was that at the end of January SK mentioned two 0-6-0s and at that time I think everyone was assuming that this was in addition to the Class 08 because we all thought that the Class 08 was on its way and would be arriving in February. So where people have been talking about a 57xx and a J94 arriving some soon then maybe it will only one of these.

Ah, I see what you mean, probably just me not grasping what you were saying properly, now I understand your point. In the absence of info to the contrary the 08 being one of the two 0-6-0s cannot be ruled out I suppose. It is hard to fathom why Hornby won't just come out and say what the loco(s) mentioned actually are instead of talking in riddles, especially given that there is no direct competition (and from what other manufacturers have said unlikely to be any for the foreseeable future). 

[Jeff Smith]

14 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

They recently updated the online shop with new images of the 08s but unfortunately the models they've used are those livery samples from January (or earlier?) that had the ladders on them. I can only assume that there aren't more up-to-date pre-production examples available yet. Nice to have images of the real thing but you would have thought that someone would have removed the ladders first - I'm sure they must be aware that the ladders shouldn't be there on those examples.

 

Cheers, Neil.

Ok, so which (potential future) versions should have ladders on?  And why were they removed?

[InTheTrainShed]

SK says some interesting things in this youtube interview. Starting around 14.45 minutes. He says that something will be revealed (my words) in around a months time …
 

 

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

Ok, so which (potential future) versions should have ladders on?  And why were they removed?

 

Green ones were the latest with ladders, I think, although there will always be exceptions. Removed for 'elf and safety, I'd imagine - overhead electrification, people hanging on to a moving loco and then falling off, that sort of thing.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Porfuera