Hornby announce TT:120

[Jeff Smith]

37 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

I don't know how 'close' Hornby and Arnold R&D deps are, but Arnold has an 0-4-0 diesel shunter, so they should be ready.

It would be ludicrous if they did not have a close working relationship and use some common items like motors, gearboxes and wheels.  It would also make sense for the same manufacturing facilities to be involved, with assembly personnel familiar with working on these sized models.

[natterjack]

don't know how 'close' Hornby and Arnold R&D deps are, but Arnold has an 0-4-0 diesel shunter, so they should be ready.

 

So what exactly what  is  going on here?

Edited November 4, 2023 by natterjack
granmar

[Porfuera]

19 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

Class 08 was an odd choice when a Tank engine would have been more versatile.

 

I guess it depends on your point of view - the Class 08 seems fine to me when you consider the HST, Class 66 and Class 50 were all supposed to be released within the first 12 months, I think.

 

The range is currently a bit light on rolling stock for the Era 10 and 11 diesel liveries, but won't the TTAs and HAAs go OK with the Era 7 and 8 diesels? And maybe the 21T minerals and box vans if you're prepared to be a bit flexible...?

 

I think flexibility on running different eras together is going to be key for a while yet.

[britishcolumbian]

7 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

The Arnold Kof is 6-pin and I don't think it has any provision for sound. Obviously 6-pin sound decoders exist but you still need to find space for a speaker. Someone may have done it, though.

I saw someone do it with a workaround in which the speaker was in a covered van coupled behind the engine, but IMO that's hardly ideal for a dedicated shunting machine.

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, Porfuera said:

I guess it depends on your point of view - the Class 08 seems fine to me when you consider the HST, Class 66 and Class 50 were all supposed to be released within the first 12 months, I think.

 

In addition it's predecessors which look very similar have been around since pre WW2 and the class itself since the early 50s and it's been just about everywhere in the country as a shunter, something that can't be said for any steam 0-6-0 shunter! Perhaps there's more logic to it than some people give credit...

 

But it's not a steam loco, and there's the issue in many steam enthusiast's eyes.

[J-Lewis]

7 hours ago, Porfuera said:

I guess it depends on your point of view - the Class 08 seems fine to me when you consider the HST, Class 66 and Class 50 were all supposed to be released within the first 12 months, I think.

The Class 08 is absolutely a fine choice of model in the larger picture, but in the context of the launch it stands out in terms of livery choice (no early livery to match the other locos) and lack of stock (literally no suitable wagons for it to shunt).

 

The only thing the Class 08 gives to the launch range is a tangible modern diesel model, which helps offset the late arrival of the Class 66, HST and 50 which were all still in the 3D printing stage at launch.

 

The space saving aspect of TT is crying out for that small tank engine to allow for shunting planks, inglenooks etc. and it’s a very odd choice to delay them until phase 3, even if that delay was expected to be just 12 months?

 

The ‘surprise’ tank engine will go a long way towards fixing that if the rumoured Christmas release is true. :)

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, natterjack said:

don't know how 'close' Hornby and Arnold R&D deps are, but Arnold has an 0-4-0 diesel shunter, so they should be ready.

 

So what exactly what  is  going on here?

 

I'm not sure what the connection is here, especially to the comment about them having an 0-4-0 shunter. Arnold doesn't have any 0-6-0s in TT so any such loco would be new to the Hornby Group TT stable, Tillig and Roco both do 0-6-0s but they have no connection to Hornby except as competitors! As an aside how many TT locos have Arnold produced as new models in the past few years, not many I suspect.

[Hobby]

2 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

and it’s a very odd choice to delay them until phase 3, even if that delay was expected to be just 12 months?

 

But they weren't, they've always been in phase 3, the only delay has been in the rollout, which probably explains things better.

[J-Lewis]

30 minutes ago, Hobby said:

But they weren't, they've always been in phase 3, the only delay has been in the rollout, which probably explains things better.

I’ve not made my point very clearly.  I’m talking about the planning for the launch.  All those later phase models were in design and planning.  We know that the tank engines were ready for tooling before the class 66 and the 9f were (info from TT magazine interviews).

 

 At some point before the announcement a decision was made that set what would be in phase 1 and that decision pushed all the tank engines into later phases and set the Class 08 as the sole early Blue/Modern livery model at launch.

 

It seems to me that had the launch included  a green livery for the 08 and a tank engine it would have presented a far more cohesive lineup and would have nipped at least some of the negativity in the bud.

Edited November 5, 2023 by J-Lewis

[dunnyrail]

My wonder with the range is why 21t minerals, they were certainly a less seen wagon than the BR 16t mineral?

[J-Lewis]

3 minutes ago, dunnyrail said:

My wonder with the range is why 21t minerals, they were certainly a less seen wagon than the BR 16t mineral?

I know right?  16T seems like such an obvious choice.  Rumour is that Peco are working on one now.

 

Would the choice of 21t allow for more variety with other wagons types using the same chassis?  I’m not sure what other types of vans or flats could use it but there might be some?

[Hobby]

42 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

I’ve not made my point very clearly.  I’m talking about the planning for the launch.  All those later phase models were in design and planning.  We know that the tank engines were ready for tooling before the class 66 and the 9f were (info from TT magazine interviews).

 

 At some point before the announcement a decision was made that set what would be in phase 1 and that decision pushed all the tank engines into later phases and set the Class 08 as the sole early Blue/Modern livery model at launch.

 

It seems to me that had the launch included  a green livery for the 08 and a tank engine it would have presented a far more cohesive lineup and would have nipped at least some of the negativity in the bud.

 

I feel we are all speculating when we don't actually know what was going on, the 0-6-0Ts were always in phase 3, so not due to be launched any earlier and I suspect that most of the phase 1-4 locos were quite well along the design phase. How far along we would have to guess. Trouble with those videos is that people say what they think people want to hear rather than what is actually the case so i don't take them as gospel.

 

As to the "cohesive(ness)" of the range that depends on who you speak to and what they want rather than what will sell best, for that i suspect Hornby's take will be different to yours and mine and probably more realistic as it has a lot less bias. From what has come so far the biggest mistake they've made was not to launch the 08 in green and as J-Lewis has said the 21t mineral wagon instead of the much more common 16t. For the train set market (which, remember, seems to have been their main market initially) they seem to have hit the nail on the head, the rest of us just need to be patient. 

[J-Lewis]

5 minutes ago, Hobby said:

For the train set market (which, remember, seems to have been their main market initially) they seem to have hit the nail on the head, the rest of us just need to be patient. 

Agree with all your points, although for me speculating is part of the fun (especially if it’s based on official info) 😃

 

That said, I do think a small goods train set in the launch lineup would have hit the nail even more firmly on the head.

[andrewshimmin]

Well, the advantage of them not having brought out an 0-6-0T yet is that it spreads the cost!

[Porfuera]

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

But they weren't, they've always been in phase 3, the only delay has been in the rollout, which probably explains things better.

 

Sorry but the steam 0-6-0s were never in Phase 3. I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago...

 

The catalogue lists them after the Phase 4 locos in the part that says "Plus, BR Britannia, LMS/BR Black 5, J94, GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier and much more!" on Page 9.

 

Then on 25th July there was an announcement on what was to come and this announcement moved the J94 and 57xx into Phase 4:  "Phase Four will see the arrival of the Class 31, again in various liveries and formats. For those interested in steam locomotives 'The Great Western Castle' will be introduced in various liveries and periods as well as two 0-6-0 locomotives namely the LNER/BR J94 and the GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier Tank".

[Porfuera]

6 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

The Class 08 is absolutely a fine choice of model in the larger picture, but in the context of the launch it stands out in terms of livery choice (no early livery to match the other locos) and lack of stock (literally no suitable wagons for it to shunt).

 

The only thing the Class 08 gives to the launch range is a tangible modern diesel model, which helps offset the late arrival of the Class 66, HST and 50 which were all still in the 3D printing stage at launch.

 

The space saving aspect of TT is crying out for that small tank engine to allow for shunting planks, inglenooks etc. and it’s a very odd choice to delay them until phase 3, even if that delay was expected to be just 12 months?

 

Again, for wagons I think it depends on your point of view. If the original schedules had been maintained to then there would have been plenty of wagons for the blue 08 to shunt. I agree that there is nothing for the GBRf or DB versions, but I mentioned that before.

 

The TTAs and HAAs were supposed to be out within six months of the blue 08 (Spring and Summer respectively IIRC), much the same time frame as the steam era wagons were supposed to appear.

 

Plus the 21T minerals were supposed to be released at the same time as the blue 08 (originally January for both), although these are arguably not quite recent enough for the blue 08 but as I've said before I think we need to be a bit flexible with what goes with what.

 

On the face of it there seems to be quite a large selection of steam-era rolling stock, but if you split it down by 'eras' then there is less choice (I'm using the catalogue definitions of eras, here - I know it isn't always correct and there will be some overlap between eras as well):

 

Pre-grouping: 12T tanks (Eras 2/3)

Grouping: PO opens, LNER box vans and brake (Era 3), maybe 12T tanks

Early BR: box vans and brake (Era 4)

Late BR: nothing (Era 5) although I guess the Early BR ones would do here

 

There isn't really much in that list for a green 08... Why not a black 08? (I guess the answer here is that more people want the steam/green diesel transition BR late era, but I suspect that there's going to be a long wait for those green diesels).

 

So by my reckoning there should have been just as much for the blue 08 to shunt as a steam 0-6-0 or a green 08. With a bit of flexibility on the eras (Rule 1) it opens up more wagons for all of those locos - for example brown box vans and 21T minerals for the blue 08 or bringing the PO opens onto later eras for the steam 0-6-0 or the green 08 (or the 21T minerals again for these two).

 

And there's a lot of talk about steam 0-6-0s but not much mention of which eras people want: grouping, early BR or late BR? I don't think there is much chance of pre-grouping. The more eras/liveries are produced then the smaller the batch numbers will be and therefore the higher the cost, I suspect. I know people can repaint and add suitable transfers but then not everyone is prepared to do this - if that were the case people would be doing it for green 08s rather than waiting for RTR.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Porfuera

[Porfuera]

4 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

Would the choice of 21t allow for more variety with other wagons types using the same chassis?  I’m not sure what other types of vans or flats could use it but there might be some?

 

 This is a good point, I think, and one that I haven't seen suggested before. Do the 21T minerals have a 12 foot wheelbase? Their chassis seem to be different to the TTAs and the HAAs but maybe something later might share that chassis.

 

I've seen a similar suggestion for the PO wagons being on a 10 foot chassis, rather than a 9 foot chassis - that Hornby didn't know how well TT:120 would sell so they were economising where they could with the early releases.

 

And maybe there are no 16T minerals because there is no 9 foot chassis (although that didn't stop them with the PO opens).

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Porfuera

[Hobby]

4 hours ago, Porfuera said:

Sorry but the steam 0-6-0s were never in Phase 3. I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago...

 

The catalogue lists them after the Phase 4 locos in the part that says "Plus, BR Britannia, LMS/BR Black 5, J94, GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier and much more!" on Page 9.

 

Yes, that isn't well written, I read it as saying they are part of phases 3 and 4. It can be read either your way or mine, it isn't at all clear!

[Ravenser]

8 hours ago, dunnyrail said:

My wonder with the range is why 21t minerals, they were certainly a less seen wagon than the BR 16t mineral?

 

It's fairly clear Hornby have been developing new models in parallel in OO and TT:120 . Hence the LNER Toad B - an odd choice in TT:120 perhaps but explained by the fact Hornby were doing this brake van in OO. Likewise the TTAs - clearly a second strand of the project to develop new TTAs in OO

 

This is where a second trend co,mes into play. Hornby have a track record of running old tooling as a budget model, on and on despite a better model being available elsewhere, in the face of the derision and dismay of the scale end of the hobby. Then , when the tooling finally wears out - instead of quietly dropping the subject they tool up a replacement to a much higher standard.

 

We saw this when the Railroad Mk1s were developed , and it has happened again with the OO TTAs - the basic but dimesionally accurate Railroad TTAs are early 1970s tooling and must now be life expired. Rather than yield the subject to Bachmann, Hornby have tooled up their own high-spec TTA in OO, with a TT:120 spin-off

 

Hornby have had a basic but dimensionally accurate 21T steel mineral in the range since the early 70s (granted the underframe was off). They have inherited the Airfix 21T tooling of c1980 . I'd suggest that tooling is now more or less life expired, and there may well have been a project to develop a new much higher spec 21T steel mineral to replace it as a livery workhorse.

 

Accurascale will have spiked the guns of any such OO 21t mineral by announcing and bringing to market their own MDO/MDV models. But that doesn't affect TT:120, and I suspect Hornby have simply carried on with the TT side of the project to salvage as much as they can

 

(As an aside - the annoucement of Classes 37, 47, and 66 in TT:120 has possible implications for OO. The ex Lima 37 and 47 in the OO Railroad range must surely have been tooled in the 1980s, and the tooling won't last for ever. I can't see Hornby simply ceding that ground when it wears out - the new Railroad Limby motor bogies they tooled to upgrade them were regarded by the hobby as one of Hornby's most misplaced initiatives ever, but over the last 20-odd years they must have been one of Hornby's most commercially sucessful tooling investments. I do wonder if the TT:120 37 and 47 are preparing the ground for new Railroad 37s and 47s in OO in a few years - Design Clever "accurate but affordable " challengers to the high-end high spec models beloved of hardcore D+E , which could be clear of £300 RRP by that stage. There are precendents for that approach in Continental HO from the likes of PIKO)

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

Yes, that isn't well written, I read it as saying they are part of phases 3 and 4. It can be read either your way or mine, it isn't at all clear!

 

I took it as the steam locos correspond to the phases as listed (Phase 3 for the 9F, Phase 4 for the Castle) and therefore anything in the "Plus..." list would be in later phases, given that SK had said there were a number of phases planned past Phase 4.

 

Even at the time I couldn't see them fitting "Plus, BR Britannia, LMS/BR Black 5, J94, GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier and much more!" into Phases 3 and 4, especially as there were diesels to get out as well.

[Porfuera]

Has anyone else noticed that the Class 60 and the 9F have been dropped from Phases 3 and 4? Hopefully they are just delayed rather than being dropped completely. I assume this is because the 57xx and the j94 have been brought forward.

 

The catalogue lists the 9F on page 9 and the Class 60 on page 15. Both are listed with three liveries and/or running numbers.

 

But the "future plans" announcement from July 25th(?) no longer lists either in Phases 3 and 4 (despite having a picture of the 9F next to Phase 3):

 

"Phase Three sees the introduction of two main BR diesel locomotive stalwarts, these being the Brush Class 37 and the Brush Class 47. There will be variants of both, ranging from their early introduction right through to their days in Privatisation."

 

"Phase Four will see the arrival of the Class 31, again in various liveries and formats. For those interested in steam locomotives 'The Great Western Castle' will be introduced in various liveries and periods as well as two 0-6-0 locomotives namely the LNER/BR J94 and the GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier Tank."

 

So no more Class 60 or 9F in Phases 3/4. Obviously some things had to go from the production schedule in order to bring forward the steam 0-6-0s.

 

Interestingly the "future plans" announcement also says "In addition, there will be even more sets representing both steam and modern traction eras." Maybe that Class 08 shunting set will eventually turn up after all. Maybe also a steam shunting set.

 

The "future plans" page (originally posted by @Les1952) is here in case anyone hasn't read it yet: https://uk.Hornby.com/hornbytt120/future

[Hobby]

Yet they still include a prominent picture of a 9f next to Phase 3! I'm getting into the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp at the moment. They've changed their minds so many times that who knows what will come next! Gives some people plenty to discuss, though... ;)

[andrewshimmin]

I think it's less that they've changed their minds, and more that we're all reading what are essentially marketing press releases as if they were contract specifications!

The phases are nothing but a way in their marketing materials of them helping us understand that things are coming out gradually over time, and an idea of what approximate order things will be released in.

I don't imagine they really exist as such in the heads of Hornby internally.

I presume the 9F is missing from the text of the "Future of TT:120" (although shown on the photo) by omission/accident only - it's been mentioned elsewhere in other marketing comms more recently. And the photo is a bit of a hint!

I'm intrigued as to what is included in "whole variety of modern image EMUs". A class 80X has been mentioned. I wonder if something like a Flirt or Desiro type is meant in addition?

[Johan DC]

2 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

I think it's less that they've changed their minds, and more that we're all reading what are essentially marketing press releases as if they were contract specifications!

The phases are nothing but a way in their marketing materials of them helping us understand that things are coming out gradually over time, and an idea of what approximate order things will be released in.

I don't imagine they really exist as such in the heads of Hornby internally.

I presume the 9F is missing from the text of the "Future of TT:120" (although shown on the photo) by omission/accident only - it's been mentioned elsewhere in other marketing comms more recently. And the photo is a bit of a hint!

I'm intrigued as to what is included in "whole variety of modern image EMUs". A class 80X has been mentioned. I wonder if something like a Flirt or Desiro type is meant in addition?

It is mentioned in the Summer edition of the TT-club magazine that of all the lager steam engines of phase 4, only the Castle is confirmed. The 9F, Black 5, Peppercorn A1 and Princess Royals will be announced in due course. They also speek of additions to the 2024 range because of modellers demand, like an 0-6-0T to be announced in the next issue. 

[andrewshimmin]

1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

It is mentioned in the Summer edition of the TT-club magazine that of all the lager steam engines of phase 4, only the Castle is confirmed. The 9F, Black 5, Peppercorn A1 and Princess Royals will be announced in due course. They also speek of additions to the 2024 range because of modellers demand, like an 0-6-0T to be announced in the next issue. 

 

Yes, but I think that's more a case that "they" (the magazine production team, who I presume are from HH marketing) aren't really much more in the know than the rest of us. They are dependent on what they are told by Hornby (model design and production team).

 

As I said above, I think the comms has been unclear / inconsistent, not that Hornby's actual design and manufacturing plans have changed.

 

(I don't have any particular agenda here, I would be delighted if someone bought me the Castle or 9F as an unexpected gift but my own plans don't include them. I'm awaiting the Black 5 very impatiently however!)

Edited November 6, 2023 by andrewshimmin
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