Hornby Dublo 2023 Flying Scotsman.

[cessna152towser]

23 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Selling tickets to stand next to the loco…I now have heard it all.

They will be selling bottled steam from it next…

Flying Scotsman was going to be "The People's Engine" when the NRM bought it, making it affordable to all.    I was one of the contributors to the Vacuum Brake Fund which was supposed to entitle  donors to a trip behind FS on the NYMR once it was restored.    Yet when the NYMR finally got a hold of the loco they doubled their fares.   Still have my nice certificate telling me I will get a ride behind Flying Scotsman, still waiting.   I have a tender drive Hornby 00 Flying Scotsman in Apple Green but it has long fallen out of favour and hasn't been out of its box for a while.

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, cessna152towser said:

Flying Scotsman was going to be "The People's Engine" when the NRM bought it, making it affordable to all

Until they found out what a bag of nails it actually was.

Running it with too high boiler pressure for some years didn't help.

[RichardT]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Maybe because Didcot don't get huge amounts of taxpayers money to pay for their projects.

Neither do the NRM. Flying Scotsman’s rebuilding from the dangerous shambles of a wreck left by the previous chancers that owned it and ran it into the ground was funded by donations raised and received specifically for that purpose, and ring-fenced for that purpose, and by commercial income generated by the loco.

 

This constant carping about Flying Scotsman really gets tedious.

 

RichardT

Edited October 15, 2022 by RichardT
Better word

[5944]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

Neither do the NRM. Flying Scotsman’s rebuilding from the dangerous shambles of a wreck left by the previous chancers that owned it and ran it into the ground was funded by donations raised and received specifically for that purpose, and ring-fenced for that purpose, and by commercial income generated by the loco.

 

This constant carping about Flying Scotsman really gets tedious.

 

RichardT

To give you an idea of how shambolic it was under the previous owners, the loco didn't even have a headlight for mainline running after its overhaul at Southall in 1999. They managed to lash up a temporary one using a diesel headlight for the test run in June 1999.

 

https://flic.kr/p/dS2p7w

 

Before its inaugural run to York, they managed to get one from the A4 Loco Society. I had to bring it down from Grosmont to Bounds Green and hand it over on the morning of the tour. They couldn't even get the basic stuff right, no wonder it failed so often. The central heating pipework used for the air brakes didn't help matters either.

[MoonM]

On 14/10/2022 at 15:04, OliverBytham said:

Odd choice to model the loco as 103, but not 4472's arguably most iconic guise, in 1928 non-stop London-Edinburgh A1 with corridor tender form. 

Any indication of how many of each 'limited edition' Hornby is to produce? Or are they keeping their options open to add another thousand or so to the production run, as per the Elizabeth II Jubilee West Country?

Agree, and not the first person I've heard say this. Seems bizarre to model a 'special 100year anniversary model' without including the guise under which it arguably accomplished its greatest achievement. Similarly I wonder how many of the '103' models are actually wanted. Can only see this one selling to people who assume this will be under 4472 and have a nasty shock when 103 arrives! 

[cessna152towser]

19 minutes ago, MoonM said:

Similarly I wonder how many of the '103' models are actually wanted.

Only time I ever saw Flying Scotsman as 103 was at the unveiling ceremony in York in 2011, and even then 103 on one side only.  I recall several of those present commenting that it was a surprise and unusual livery for the event.

Edited October 16, 2022 by cessna152towser

[TomScrut]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hornby have taken some of their core 00 range and scaled it down. Sounds like sound business sense to me.

 

Exactly. As far as I am aware, every single thing they have announced they already have in OO. That doesn't mean to say they own that part of the TT market, but it makes sense that the stuff they already have OO CAD for are easy targets and so would be an obvious choice.

 

The other thing, what did Heljan actually announce? A 31, with a comment that an 08 might be next. Now it is easy for me to say with 20/20 hindsight, but surely somebody sat at Heljan towers would have been considering what everyone else might be up to here, and the thought of "what might Hornby be doing" would have led to those two classes in the answer. So I have to wonder how committed they were to the market anyway if announcing 1 loco that gets a duplication (and they could have half expected anyway) frightens them away from all the stuff Hornby probably won't do soon (the stuff they need to do full on CAD for). Likewise, if the 37, 47 and 66 are based on their OO models there will (in time, when the market is more established) probably be space for a better one of each of those as TT is still big enough to highlight the issues with those models I think.

 

Whilst I do like the idea of TT, I think Hornby spending all this money here could lead to the competition sleeping better on a night knowing it's not being spent on OO.

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I think Hornby is working on a new kind of collector.

 

Traditionally Collectors have sets, based on a theme… a region, a time period, a class or even a manufacturer.

 

For a while there was a strong market of “limited edition” collectors but that was oversold and most lost value, and saw duplication of tooling or sometimes spurious paint amendments to create another run.

 

Hornby seems to be angling to “mass population” collecting.. (I used to call it the sunday magazine collector many years ago… you know odd ball tat such as legal silver coins celebrating a theme, but issued by a remote country.. over priced the moment you buy them they are worth nowt once the event has passed), but today the internet means more often and more publicity.

 

Recent Examples include Ukrainian stamps for snake island/Moskva sinking

 

By using their name and recent TV documentary and their occasional well placed social media attacks, its attracting interest to some limited editions that ordinarily probably wouldnt buy them on an ordinary circumstance.

 

if you look at it.. 66731 was fashion, the Dublo Trio ballooned the week of the TV documentary release, and 70 “QE2” went stratospheric the week of HM’s passing…

ordinary modellers, indeed ordinary model railway collectors probably wouldnt go near those prices…. and then of course as the event passes the prices collapse to more realistic levels.

 

My gut feel is the LNER silver HST should bomb.. but if that becomes subject of an episode of the TV program, and is released at the same time, it could well too become a one week fashion icon, before the bargain bin beckons as a cheap supply of spare parts.

 

Hornbys not tapping FOMO of model railway collectors, they are tapping FOMO of any kind of collectors. Many of whom may sadly consider it an investment… “For Keeps”… and many of them dont care how accurate the model is.

 

These 4472 sets, if hyped with the TV show, if linked to news items will probably also sell out, even if they are priced above a normal collectors threshold, but I suspect the longevity of that success will not go beyond the anniversary events.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/Lusitania-Medal/13966/bn_55211366

 

Only Hornby can do this, so they may as well exploit it. Indeed that might even be TTs route to success… I suspect many buyers of such stuff dont have layouts and may not even know much of the train…

 

but how long they can do it is questionable… those buyers are fickle so are TV journalists, they love to build up a success, but they absolutely relish tearing it down.

 

 

 

A very interesting analysis and I like the comparison with the theme idea of collecting.  There is no doubt in my mind that it sort of works as a sales trick - after all it is well used so somebody thinks it must work.  And it will work as long as people don't know the difference between price and value and the fact that it is the latter which generally tends to endure and possibly to even offer a future return on the money spent.

 

the only way I have seen it working really well with model railway items over a relatively short period is with Hornby West Country models where there was some years ago an absolutely barmy market which must have been due to folk trying to complete the collection.  Even at auctions the prices were ridiculous.

 

The other angle of this sort of market is that it thrives on suggesting the 'unique' or 'very special'. (e.g centenary) nature of the 'commemorative' model and thsi appeals to that certain kind of buyer you refer to.  Some are simply taken in by it while plenty think it will make them money - just like those worthless, over-priced coins.  And of course collecting habits, and prices change over the years so it's as easy to lose money as it is to make it - in fact it's often much easier to lose money.

 

I happen to have a 'Lusitania Medal' - in its original box with the original inserted text.   Just look at this page on Ebay and try to work out what it's worth?     You might also be excused for wondering exactly what is if you read through the various descriptions entered by the sellers because not a single one of them describes it accurately or would appear to know the history of it.  This - thanks for reminding me - does indeed show that there could be a market for these over-priced 'Flying Scotsman' models.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/Lusitania-Medal/13966/bn_55211366

 

Incidentally, and bought solely for sentimental reasons, I do have one Hornby's past efforts (quite a good one) at an LNER A1.  I don't know what it is 'worth' but I can say without any doubt at all that something else I keep along with it would fetch at least twice as much, and possibly even double that, if I were to sell the two things at the right auctions.

Edited October 16, 2022 by The Stationmaster
Ooops - forgot the link, now added

[DonnyRailMan]

On 14/10/2022 at 12:33, TomScrut said:

Well I am pleased that they have announced one as it will be on its 100th birthday.

 

I have ordered it, will decide later if I can stomach the price (even with the 10% discount from being a club member) as it is a lot of money but I have wanted a model of FS in its current form for a while.

So that will be R 3443 version then that was the last release of Flying Scotsman 60103

[Harlequin]

Ah hah, the sort of product that is pushed repetitively on second-stream TV channels in slack advertising time by a shouty man speaking very fast...

 

"This unique collector's item is available for the specal price of £XXX.XX and remember you get two carriages absolutely free!"

 

?

[TomScrut]

7 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

"This unique collector's item is available for the specal price of £XXX.XX and remember you get two carriages absolutely free!"

 

"But wait, that's not all! Order today and we will also include a TTS decoder!"

[RichardT]

9 hours ago, 5944 said:

The central heating pipework used for the air brakes didn't help matters either.

And the domestic central heating union that they used to fix the whistle on…

 

RT

[DonnyRailMan]

Wonder if Hornby offer all 5 versions of Flying Scotsman in a special price buy  together where its cheaper than buying each separately. 

[Hilux5972]

59 minutes ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Wonder if Hornby offer all 5 versions of Flying Scotsman in a special price buy  together where its cheaper than buying each separately. 

There’s actually 6. For some reason the 6th doesn’t show up as part of the collection but I think the code is r30206. It’s the unnamed L&NER 1472 as first released to traffic. 

[5Dublo2]

2 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

There’s actually 6. For some reason the 6th doesn’t show up as part of the collection but I think the code is r30206. It’s the unnamed L&NER 1472 as first released to traffic. 

It does show up  in the collection (at least when  using a laptop to access the page) - you do have to use the arrow to scroll to the right though as instead of making the collection appear on one page in multiple rows - it is all on one row that is too wide for the page

 

[Delta_Who]

On 14/10/2022 at 23:12, adb968008 said:

Selling tickets to stand next to the loco…I now have heard it all.

I went and tbh, I think it was worth it. You get 1:1 time with the loco that you normally would not get with train enthusiasts crowding on platform edges, or jumping lines.

[Hilux5972]

3 hours ago, 5Dublo2 said:

It does show up  in the collection (at least when  using a laptop to access the page) - you do have to use the arrow to scroll to the right though as instead of making the collection appear on one page in multiple rows - it is all on one row that is too wide for the page

 

Aah I see. It only shows 5 locos and the coach on my phone. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Hilux5972
Correction

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Delta_Who said:

I went and tbh, I think it was worth it. You get 1:1 time with the loco that you normally would not get with train enthusiasts crowding on platform edges, or jumping lines.

I’m probably spoilt, I did a driver/firing course on it, £100 for the day..30 years ago… but the loco was rough as nails… I remeber everything either felt too loose or too stiff, it was leaking everywhere and running on reduced boiler pressure. We only used 4 coaches as 6 was seen as too taxing… if failed not long after and went for overhaul.

I did 5029 a few weeks later and it was smooth as silk, responded to everything and burned nothing…it was all about braking.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by adb968008

[Hilux5972]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

failed not long after and went for overhaul.

 

Geez how rough were you with it!!!

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Geez how rough were you with it!!!

You saw my 66 donor in the other thread ;-)

I got to play with on at Coalville Openday too a few years earlier..

 

 

 

 

i’m of the opinion, so many thousands of people have visited its footplate that it should be free.

 

Its an experience that brings people to the hobby, and charging for access is a slippery slope… its the ultimate word of mouth PR for the hobby, not least for kids.

 

Indirectly it puts rarer memories like this at risk, and which imo are far more deserving..

 

 

 

 

I hope this is a on off opportunism by the NRM, not all kids can afford it, and if visiting a footplate becomes an exclusive VIP ticket event then it risks becoming a rich persons hobby, not everybody who is completely stunned by surprise to see it on the platforms hobby.

Edited October 16, 2022 by adb968008

[melmerby]

Back in the day anyone could get into a loco's cab.🙂

 

(As long as the shed foreman didn't catch you.☹️)

 

[Hilux5972]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

i’m of the opinion, so many thousands of people have visited its footplate that it should be free.

I absolutely agree. Since technically the nation owns it, anyone should be allowed to visit at no cost! 

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m probably spoilt, I did a driver/firing course on it, £100 for the day..30 years ago… but the loco was rough as nails… I remeber everything either felt too loose or too stiff, it was leaking everywhere and running on reduced boiler pressure. We only used 4 coaches as 6 was seen as too taxing… if failed not long after and went for overhaul.

I did 5029 a few weeks later and it was smooth as silk, responded to everything and burned nothing…it was all about braking.

 

I rode on it on the mainline several years over 30 years ago and it was far and away the roughest engine I have ever ridden (and that includes riding on an 8F in traffic working a coal train towards the end of WR steam and a short wheelbase outside cylinder industrial working a passenger train on a preserved line).  Regrettably it was the wrong A3 to enter preservation in terms of its overall condition and it became a money pit as a result - but it has the cachet of the right name.

[MoonM]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I rode on it on the mainline several years over 30 years ago and it was far and away the roughest engine I have ever ridden (and that includes riding on an 8F in traffic working a coal train towards the end of WR steam and a short wheelbase outside cylinder industrial working a passenger train on a preserved line).  Regrettably it was the wrong A3 to enter preservation in terms of its overall condition and it became a money pit as a result - but it has the cachet of the right name.

Do we expect the current restoration to have resolved all of this or will it forever be a bit of a 'dog'? 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Regrettably it was the wrong A3 to enter preservation in terms of its overall condition and it became a money pit as a result - but it has the cachet of the right name

Maybe the one in best condition should have been saved and all the visible "FS" bits swapped over?😆