Problems in connecting two 00 Gauge DCC layouts?

[Tallpaul69]

Hi everyone,

I have two 00 Gauge DCC Layouts that I want to connect together to run as one, but i suspect there it may not be that simple?

 

The details of the layouts are as follows: -

1) A 12-foot-long end to end layout with two tracks curved to the side in the fiddle yard to allow connection of further boards to extend the layout.

The control is an NCE Power Cab controlling the traction, points and signals. 

 

2) A 12ft x 4 ft double track roundy round layout with a double track branch leading to the side of the layout to allow connection of further boards.

The control is a second NCE Power Cab controlling the traction, the points are controlled by push buttons. The signals are made but not installed, the intention is to operate them via the NCE.

 

3) I need to construct a one foot long double tracked baseboard to interconnect the above layouts. I intend to wire this as an extension to one of the layouts but how do I treat the location where its tracks meet the other layout?

Do I just connect the tracks here as well?

 

What other problems do I need to recognise and deal with?

 

Many thanks

Paul 

[Nigelcliffe]

Biggest problem you have to resolve is that you can only have ONE DCC system(*) for the combined layout.    So, only one of the PowerCab systems connected at a time, though the second handset can be a secondary throttle (a "ProCab") to whichever is the chosen DCC command station.  

 

Make sure your wiring, and selection of plugs/sockets, is such that you cannot accidentally connect two DCC systems to the combined layout.   There are many ways of achieving this, but if not done, you risk connecting two systems.  

 

 

(* OK, there are ways to have more than one, but they are complicated, don't go there). 

[peterfgf]

Just to confirm what the previous poster said, you can only have one source of DCC signal for the whole system - just imagine the resultant mess of waveforms and confusion of two sets of high frequency signals.  I have two sets of tracks, fast and slow lines in my mind, which have isolated connectors in the connecting tracks.  The inner tracks are connected to a black Roco Z21, to which the controllers are connected,  but the outer tracks are connected to a Roco Booster.  The DCC signal is the same for both sets of tracks but they are electrically isolated.

Peterfgf

[ITG]

3 hours ago, peterfgf said:

Just to confirm what the previous poster said, you can only have one source of DCC signal for the whole system - just imagine the resultant mess of waveforms and confusion of two sets of high frequency signals.  I have two sets of tracks, fast and slow lines in my mind, which have isolated connectors in the connecting tracks.  The inner tracks are connected to a black Roco Z21, to which the controllers are connected,  but the outer tracks are connected to a Roco Booster.  The DCC signal is the same for both sets of tracks but they are electrically isolated.

Peterfgf

With DCC, what is the benefit of electrically isolating the two tracks?

[5BarVT]

46 minutes ago, ITG said:

With DCC, what is the benefit of electrically isolating the two tracks?

Keeping fault currents separate and only losing half the layout if a short occurs.

Paul.

[Michael Hodgson]

If you connect them together the cease to be two layouts.  Why would you want to control them independently - do you envisage two operators?  I would still keep them electrically isolated and use a booster for one of them, as others are suggesting. 

 

Do you envisage continuing to see them as two layouts (perhaps taking or the other to a local exhibition etc)?  If so, and if you want to use them simultaneously, you need to keep two controllers.  If not, I'd sell one and buy a booster.  I don't know the Powercab, but unless it can be configured to act as a slave, accepting instructions from other and effectively acting as a booster I would expect trouble as trains pass from one system to the other, bridging the two systems together via the train's pickups.

[ITG]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

Keeping fault currents separate and only losing half the layout if a short occurs.

Paul.

I guessed that was it, but then one is hardly likely to soldier on leaving a bleeping short. Although I can see the benefit if exhibiting, of keeping some stock moving. I just wondered if there was any other reason.

[Michael Hodgson]

30 minutes ago, ITG said:

I guessed that was it, but then one is hardly likely to soldier on leaving a bleeping short. Although I can see the benefit if exhibiting, of keeping some stock moving. I just wondered if there was any other reason.

It's not just for keeping the show on the road.  Isolating the track into more manageable areas tells you where to start looking for the short.  We had to resort to installing separate isolating switches on a very large DC layout that used a single heavy duty 12v supply.

[Tallpaul69]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Keeping fault currents separate and only losing half the layout if a short occurs.

Paul.

 

7 hours ago, peterfgf said:

Just to confirm what the previous poster said, you can only have one source of DCC signal for the whole system - just imagine the resultant mess of waveforms and confusion of two sets of high frequency signals.  I have two sets of tracks, fast and slow lines in my mind, which have isolated connectors in the connecting tracks.  The inner tracks are connected to a black Roco Z21, to which the controllers are connected,  but the outer tracks are connected to a Roco Booster.  The DCC signal is the same for both sets of tracks but they are electrically isolated.

Peterfgf

Not sure what relevance this discussion on isolating between two sets of tracks, fast and slow, has to the situation I outlined, two tracks in what were originally separate layouts, connected end to end? 

[Buhar]

The other issue with joining two previously separate DCC layouts will occur with points or other accessories which have been allocated addresses or are involved in pre-set routes. Obviously you don't want more than one item on an address, but re-programming to eliminate conflicts would not prevent you returning to operating them as independent layouts in the future.

 

As others have said, for loco control only, ditch one powercab connect the buses and you should be away. Making the join with a plug allows a quick return to separate layouts and will assist with fault finding.

 

Alan

[Tallpaul69]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If you connect them together the cease to be two layouts.  Why would you want to control them independently - do you envisage two operators?  I would still keep them electrically isolated and use a booster for one of them, as others are suggesting. 

 

Do you envisage continuing to see them as two layouts (perhaps taking or the other to a local exhibition etc)?  If so, and if you want to use them simultaneously, you need to keep two controllers.  If not, I'd sell one and buy a booster.  I don't know the Powercab, but unless it can be configured to act as a slave, accepting instructions from other and effectively acting as a booster I would expect trouble as trains pass from one system to the other, bridging the two systems together via the train's pickups.

Neither of the layouts will leave home. The only situation in which i might want to use one on its own would be while work was going on with the other, but I can live without this!

If there is isolation between the two areas, how are trains crossing from one controller to the other?

I don't see the problem with having an electrical connection if one controller is a booster for the other?  

[Tallpaul69]

2 minutes ago, Buhar said:

The other issue with joining two previously separate DCC layouts will occur with points or other accessories which have been allocated addresses or are involved in pre-set routes. Obviously you don't want more than one item on an address, but re-programming to eliminate conflicts would not prevent you returning to operating them as independent layouts in the future.

 

As others have said, for loco control only, ditch one powercab connect the buses and you should be away. Making the join with a plug allows a quick return to separate layouts and will assist with fault finding.

 

Alan

Just to clarify the above queries, the points and signals have separate sets of numbers, and there are no pre-set routes.  

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Not sure what relevance this discussion on isolating between two sets of tracks, fast and slow, has to the situation I outlined, two tracks in what were originally separate layouts, connected end to end? 

 

Two 'sets of track' or two 'layouts', there is not really much difference.  The critical point is only ONE DCC command station for the combined layout.   You can divide the power to this layout into whatever areas you want for power management / fault finding and therefore it doesn't matter if this is 'former layout A' and 'former layout B' or 'Up' and 'Down'.

 

I can't see any issue with what you propose provided your accessory numbers don't overlap.

 

54 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

If there is isolation between the two areas, how are trains crossing from one controller to the other?

I don't see the problem with having an electrical connection if one controller is a booster for the other?  

 

There must only be ONE DCC command station, so the trains are not passing from one controller to the other at the location where you are joining the layouts.  Your throttle will drive a locomotive on both halves of your new layout.  If you are configuring one of the NCE units to operate as a booster for the other, then the DCC signal from both halves of the layout is coming from the same command station, but the power to one half will be supplied by the booster that is integral to the command station and the power to the other half of the layout will come from the other booster.   You can have as many boosters as you need, all electrically isolated from one another, but only one command station sending out the DCC signal.

[Nigelcliffe]

17 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

.......  If you are configuring one of the NCE units to operate as a booster for the other, then the DCC signal from both halves of the layout is coming from the same command station, .......

 

It is not possible to "configure an NCE PowerCab system to act as a booster".    So, this suggestion isn't helpful  (even though it is valid for some other brands, some other systems). 

 

 

To get up and running of a combined layout, when starting with two PowerCab systems, what I recommend is: 

1)  Put one of the PowerCab power supplies, and one of the PowerCab facia panels in a storage box. They are spare parts should something break. 

2)  Connect the DCC output from the remaining PowerCab system facia to both layouts (checking that both layouts have the DCC wires the same-way-round where the tracks join!).  Plug in its power supply, and connect its PowerCab handset.  This gives DCC from one PowerCab system handset for entire layout.  

3)  The "spare" PowerCab handset can be plugged into the empty "cab bus" socket on the in-use PowerCab system facia plate.  That second handset will startup as a "ProCab" which is a secondary throttle, available to drive trains alongside the primary PowerCab handset. 

 

Then, optionally, and spending money on more bits....  

4)  Extend the "cab bus" wiring from the PowerCab facia, to more sockets around the layout.  There are rear sockets on facia panels to help with extensions.  This means the "ProCab" handset can be moved to other locations.  (The PowerCab first handset cannot be unplugged - unplugging it turns off the entire DCC system).  

5)  Consider if an upgrade to add a booster is necessary, depending on power demand of the combined layout.   There are several options for boosters which bring in more factors. For example using the NCE "Smart Booster" will mean that both handsets can now be unplugged and moved around as required.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Tallpaul69]

19 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

It is not possible to "configure an NCE PowerCab system to act as a booster".    So, this suggestion isn't helpful  (even though it is valid for some other brands, some other systems). 

 

 

To get up and running of a combined layout, when starting with two PowerCab systems, what I recommend is: 

1)  Put one of the PowerCab power supplies, and one of the PowerCab facia panels in a storage box. They are spare parts should something break. 

2)  Connect the DCC output from the remaining PowerCab system facia to both layouts (checking that both layouts have the DCC wires the same-way-round where the tracks join!).  Plug in its power supply, and connect its PowerCab handset.  This gives DCC from one PowerCab system handset for entire layout.  

3)  The "spare" PowerCab handset can be plugged into the empty "cab bus" socket on the in-use PowerCab system facia plate.  That second handset will startup as a "ProCab" which is a secondary throttle, available to drive trains alongside the primary PowerCab handset. 

 

Then, optionally, and spending money on more bits....  

4)  Extend the "cab bus" wiring from the PowerCab facia, to more sockets around the layout.  There are rear sockets on facia panels to help with extensions.  This means the "ProCab" handset can be moved to other locations.  (The PowerCab first handset cannot be unplugged - unplugging it turns off the entire DCC system).  

5)  Consider if an upgrade to add a booster is necessary, depending on power demand of the combined layout.   There are several options for boosters which bring in more factors. For example using the NCE "Smart Booster" will mean that both handsets can now be unplugged and moved around as required.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

Thanks Nigel, your input seems to make sense, and seems to agree with what my Powercab manual says!

[Crosland]

2 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

 

Not sure what relevance this discussion on isolating between two sets of tracks, fast and slow, has to the situation I outlined, two tracks in what were originally separate layouts, connected end to end? 

It's called thread drift, happens all the time on any on-line forum, unless moderated with a very heavy hand.

 

Another reason to isolate parts of a layout is to spread the load onto different power districts. Multiple smaller boosters, rather than one big booster.

 

2 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

I don't see the problem with having an electrical connection if one controller is a booster for the other?  

The two power districts must be isolated. You can't simply connect two boosters in parallel.

[5BarVT]

3 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

I don't see the problem with having an electrical connection if one controller is a booster for the other?  

See my earlier comment on fault currents.

:-)

Paul.

Edited October 30, 2022 by 5BarVT

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks to everyone for their input, and apologies that I don't understand all of it, or its relevance to my situation!

 

As I currently see things, I have two options in wiring my two layouts together to act as one: -

 

1) Wire a bus through to connect the existing bus on both layouts and be the bus for the new joining baseboard and have one Powercab to operate the whole thing.

or: -

2) Connect the main Powercab located in the roundy round layout by cable to a booster located under the end-to-end layout. Each layout will retain its existing bus, they will not be connected together. The new joining baseboard will be connected to one bus or the other.

 

I think the second option will give me more power in the long run

 

Please comment on the above, but please don't tell me something is wrong, explain why it is wrong and the consequences of not correcting the error.

 

Many thanks for your help and patience,

Best regards

Paul 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Paul, you have identified your 2 options.

 

15 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

1)  Wire a bus through to connect the existing bus on both layouts and be the bus for the new joining baseboard and have one Powercab to operate the whole thing.

Extending your track bus to the other layout (and joining section), or taking another feed from the track bus output on the PCP, would work in principle.

However, you may find the PowerCab’s very modest power handling capability, will be insufficient for the resulting layout size and possible increase in the number of locos and accessories making demands on it.

 

15 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

2)  Connect the main Powercab located in the roundy round layout by cable to a booster located under the end-to-end layout. Each    layout will retain its existing bus, they will not be connected together. The new joining baseboard will be connected to one bus or the other.

 

I think the second option will give me more power in the long run

 

Due to the potential power limitations offered by option 1, increasing the PowerCab’s power may be the best option.

How you introduce an extra Booster is another question though.

 

The PowerCab system’s Command Station and low output Booster are contained in the PowerCab handset itself.

There is no connection (Booster output) provided to directly introduce additional Boosters to the system.

To add Boosters there are 3 options open to you……

 

a).  Upgrade the PowerCab, by purchasing the NCE SB5 Smart Booster.

This is a relatively straightforward exercise.

The SmartBooster contains a replacement Command Station and 5 amp Booster, which should be sufficient for your needs.

It renders those functions redundant in the PowerCab handset, making it just a throttle (effectively just a ProCab), but that also means the handset becomes more flexible, as it can be unplugged while the system is operating and plugged into any other sockets (UTP’s) that you might like to add to the layout.

 

b).  Use a simple (dumb) Booster type that uses the PowerCab’s track bus as its input feed, rather than needing a dedicated Booster connection (as mentioned above, the PowerCab doesn’t have that feature).

The PowerCab handset will still have to be connected (plugged in) at all times, as it still provides the Command Station function and Booster power for the 1st part of the layout and to provide an input source for the additional Booster.

Dumb Boosters of this type, simply “read” the DCC signals on the track bus and use them to generate their own synchronised signals to match.

They need their own power supply.

 

c).  Upgrade the PowerCab to the full NCE PowerPro system.

Again, just as with the SmartBooster,  the PowerCab handset effectively becomes a ProCab, with its internal Command Station and Booster disabled.

This would provide the greatest flexibility and capability for future system expansion.

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Tallpaul69]

On 01/11/2022 at 08:58, Ron Ron Ron said:

Upgrade the PowerCab, by purchasing the NCE SB5 Smart Booster.

This is a relatively straightforward exercise.

The SmartBooster contains a replacement Command Station and 5 amp Booster, which should be sufficient for your needs.

It renders those functions redundant in the PowerCab handset, making it just a throttle (effectively just a ProCab), but that also means the handset becomes more flexible, as it can be unplugged while the system is operating and plugged into any other sockets (UTP’s) that you might like to add to the layout.

 

Good evening, all,

So, I am going to source an SB5. Ron Ron Ron's other options don't appeal to me, or i don't have space for further expansion of the system: -

Any thoughts on best (not necessarily cheapest!) sources? I need a source that is willing to provide good online/e mail/phone support!

Many thanks

Paul 

[Talltim]

The modular concept is basically what you are doing. Sections built by many people, joined together to be one layout with one DCC system. 

[Tallpaul69]

Good afternoon one and all,

So far, I haven't found any UK stockists with SB5 in stock!

It's not urgent to get one, so if some arrive from the States early in the New Year that will be fine! 

 

Meanwhile, I am debating whether to make the new baseboard that will bridge between Wycombe End and Bradenham a solid board or with a drop section to the front to allow me to construct a scenic feature.

I am also debating having a facia to the board with a UTP socket connected to the track for the NCE handset.

 

There is a query that moving to a SB5 system presents: -

The easiest way to introduce a SB5 into the layouts is to use the existing cabling and UTP for Wycombe End for the SB5. This means the Handset for Bradenham will be redundant. However, the UTP for Bradenham also powers acab that is for Bradenham's points boards via its second socket, so will need to be connected to the power and the track. Will this be ok provided I don't plug a handset in to it? - Connecting the SB5 here is, I think, too complicated!

 

Any thoughts welcome!

Cheers,

Paul

  

[John ks]

Most of the following has already been explained but if you prefer working with images 

 

Top image is a representation of your 2 layouts each with its own Power Cab

 

Next image is both layouts joined using one Power Cab & the second Power cab configured as a pro-cab

Last drawing is both layouts joined & using a SB5

Both power cabs use the coiled cable to make them pro-cabs

 

Hope this helps

john

[RedgateModels]

On 30/10/2022 at 18:07, Nigelcliffe said:

 

It is not possible to "configure an NCE PowerCab system to act as a booster".    So, this suggestion isn't helpful  (even though it is valid for some other brands, some other systems). 

 

 

To get up and running of a combined layout, when starting with two PowerCab systems, what I recommend is: 

1)  Put one of the PowerCab power supplies, and one of the PowerCab facia panels in a storage box. They are spare parts should something break. 

2)  Connect the DCC output from the remaining PowerCab system facia to both layouts (checking that both layouts have the DCC wires the same-way-round where the tracks join!).  Plug in its power supply, and connect its PowerCab handset.  This gives DCC from one PowerCab system handset for entire layout.  

3)  The "spare" PowerCab handset can be plugged into the empty "cab bus" socket on the in-use PowerCab system facia plate.  That second handset will startup as a "ProCab" which is a secondary throttle, available to drive trains alongside the primary PowerCab handset. 

 

Then, optionally, and spending money on more bits....  

4)  Extend the "cab bus" wiring from the PowerCab facia, to more sockets around the layout.  There are rear sockets on facia panels to help with extensions.  This means the "ProCab" handset can be moved to other locations.  (The PowerCab first handset cannot be unplugged - unplugging it turns off the entire DCC system).  

5)  Consider if an upgrade to add a booster is necessary, depending on power demand of the combined layout.   There are several options for boosters which bring in more factors. For example using the NCE "Smart Booster" will mean that both handsets can now be unplugged and moved around as required.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

What Nigel said 🙂 just don't forget to change the cab number of the secondary handset.

 

I'd connect each layout to the Powercab track output via a block cut-out device so that if you had a short on one layout the other would still operate. 

 

This is a great example for a forthcoming BRM article 😀

[longchap]

Hi Paul,

 

Some good advice above and the principle of one DCC layout with one controller has been established.

 

I will be in a similar situation to yourself, as my current build is a branch line, which will later feed into a double mainline continuous run. I have the basic NCE system for the branch and will later add an SBS 5 amp booster. The boosters are approaching £200 now and Hattons are expecting them in very soon:

https://www.hattons.co.uk/62389/nce_524_037_sb5_5_amp_power_booster_dcc_system_for_use_with_power_cab_controller/stockdetail

 

I'm sure the forum will continue the great help and I wish you success and much pleasure with your combined layout.

 

Bill