Pronunciation of railway associated words.

[frobisher]

6 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

ISTR Edinburgh Scots claim to speak the best English.

 

I think I might speak for the rest of Scotland when I say "They would say that, wouldn't they".  The Morningside accent is unmistakable, let's leave it at that.

[hexagon789]

37 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

I think I might speak for the rest of Scotland when I say "They would say that, wouldn't they".  The Morningside accent is unmistakable, let's leave it at that.

 

 

 

[scottystitch]

Have we discussed Buccleuch (Buh-clew)?…

 

Best

 

Scott.  

Edited December 5, 2022 by scottystitch

[scottystitch]

Buchanan is a bit like Menzies, depending where in Scotland one hails from.

 

Biew-canan (as in view) or Buh-canan

 

best

 

Scott. 

[hexagon789]

5 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

Buchanan is a bit like Menzies, depending where in Scotland one hails from.

 

Biew-canan (as in view) or Buh-canan

 

best

 

Scott. 

The Gaelic it is derived from Buth Chanain is pronounced Buh Kh-an-un.

 

I've always said Bukh-an-un for the street in Glasgow. (Kh representing the guttural voiceless velar fricative found in a correctly pronounced word Loch and other words of Scottish Gaelic origin with a ch.)

 

12 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

Have we discussed Buccleuch (Buh-clew)?…

 

Best

 

Scott.  

Again, makes sense from the etymology. It was originally Buck Cleugh. A Cleugh (pronounced Cloo) is a gorge, so the gorge of the buck.

 

Over time it merged into one word, the double 'k' sound in the middle was merged into one and we end up with 'buh-cloo'.

[Oldddudders]

32 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

Have we discussed Buccleuch (Buh-clew)?…

However it's pronounced, it's a lot less easy than Atholl or Montrose!

[scottystitch]

20 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

However it's pronounced, it's a lot less easy than Atholl or Montrose!

You say that, but again Athol can be Aa-thul or Aw-thul. 
 

if it was easy, everyone would be doing it 🤓.

 

Speaking of the highland main line, I was once at Perth General when an American gent asked what platform he needed for King-gussy…(rather than King-yoo-see - Kingussie).

 

Best

 

Scott. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by scottystitch

[hexagon789]

13 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

Speaking of the highland main line, I was once at Perth General when an American gent asked what platform he needed for King-gussy…(rather than King-yoo-see - Kingussie).

Not just Americans that get that one wrong, I've heard several ScotRail staff announce 'King-gussie'.

 

Another one from the Gaelic - Ceann a' Ghiùthsaich, Head of the Pine forest. (Roughly Cown-(rhyming with down) uh- you- sikhh (sikhh representing a short 'i' as in kid, followed by a guttural kh as in loch).

[scottystitch]

16 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Not just Americans that get that one wrong, I've heard several ScotRail staff announce 'King-gussie'.

 

Another one from the Gaelic - Ceann a' Ghiùthsaich, Head of the Pine forest. (Roughly Cown-(rhyming with down) uh- you- sikhh (sikhh representing a short 'i' as in kid, followed by a guttural kh as in loch).

You, sir, are a mine of information.🙂

 

Best

 

Scott. 

[hexagon789]

1 minute ago, scottystitch said:

You, sir, are a mine of information.🙂

 

Best

 

Scott. 

Just don't ask me about Welsh and we're fine! (I don't do Welsh!) ;)

[scottystitch]

If only all the world’s place names had been named by the Māori, we’d be sweet as. Just about everything they right is pronounced phonetically (with a small few exceptions)!

 

regarding Welsh, it rings a bell in the back of my kind that way back the Scotland’s inhabitants spoke the same base language as the Welsh, hence so many Aber- place names, as an example. I can’t remember where I read that though. 
 

Best

 

Scott. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by scottystitch

[hexagon789]

2 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

If only all the world’s place names had been named by the Māori, we’d be sweet as. Just about everything they right is pronounced phonetically (with a small few exceptions)!

 

regarding Welsh, it rings a bell in the back of my kind that way back the Scotland’s inhabitants spoke the same base language as the Welsh, hence so many Aber- place names, as an example. I can’t remember where I read that though. 
 

Best

 

Scott. 

Both Celtic languages, so there is a basic relationship there. Same as with Irish, Manx, Cornish and Breton.

 

Often the greatest differences arose from differing spelling systems and through pronunciations which have thus mutated away from more direct similarities.

 

Those six languages also form two families - Brettonic which encompasses Breton, Welsh and Cornish and Goidelic which encompasses Gaelic of Scottish, Irish and Manx flavours.

 

Similarities are greater between languages within the same family.

 

 

[ardbealach]

I read somewhere that Glasgow translated into Welsh as 'a green place' and Clyde was the same derivative  as Clywd in Wales.  And Aber in both countries means 'the mouth of a river' in a place name.  Aberdeen at the mouth of the River Dee and Aberdyfi at the mouth of the Dyfi river. (Alisdair)

[hexagon789]

23 minutes ago, ardbealach said:

I read somewhere that Glasgow translated into Welsh as 'a green place' and Clyde was the same derivative  as Clywd in Wales.  And Aber in both countries means 'the mouth of a river' in a place name.  Aberdeen at the mouth of the River Dee and Aberdyfi at the mouth of the Dyfi river. (Alisdair)

Aber is Welsh in origin, ie Brettonic.

 

Inver is the direct Goidelic equivalent, coming from Old Irish.

 

The Scottish Gaelic form of Aber is Obar - Obar Dheadhain (Oper Yeh-ing) for Aberdeen. Arbroath used to be Aberbrothick, the Aber being contracted to Ar - see Gaelic Aber Broathaig (Oper Vroh-ick).

 

Inver is Inbhir (Eeng-ear) as in Inbhir Nis/Inverness, mouth of the River Ness. Inver placenames are about 3 times more common than Aber placenames in Scotland.

 

There are some that are unrelated in English, Dingwall for one - in Gaelic the name translates as the mouth of the Peffery (think Strathpeffer), the daunting Inbhir Pheofharain (Eeng-ear Fyaw-huh-ran.

 

Who ever said Celtic languages were difficult?

[frobisher]

23 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

There are some that are unrelated in English, Dingwall for one - in Gaelic the name translates as the mouth of the Peffery (think Strathpeffer), the daunting Inbhir Pheofharain (Eeng-ear Fyaw-huh-ran.

 

That's because Dingwall is Norse in origin and is completely unrelated to the place, but rather the function, and Gaelic would not have been as dominant (rather the local Norn) in those areas before they became Scots/English speaking

 

From Wikipedia...

 

Quote

Its name, derived from the Scandinavian Þingvöllr (field or meeting-place of the thing, or local assembly; compare Tynwald, Tingwall, Thingwall in the British Isles alone,[4] plus many others across northern Europe), preserves the Viking connections of the town; Gaels call it Inbhir Pheofharain (pronounced [iɲiɾʲˈfjɔhəɾaiɲ]), meaning "the mouth of the Peffery" or Baile Chàil meaning "cabbage town".[5][6]

 

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

ISTR Edinburgh Scots claim to speak the best English. 

They're wrong.

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

I think I might speak for the rest of Scotland when I say "They would say that, wouldn't they".  The Morningside accent is unmistakable, let's leave it at that.

Presumably with central heating there's no need for the coal to come in anything now?

[Martino]

I recall someone named Fetherstonehaw, that went by the pronunciation Fanshaw.   Also a gentleman named Sidebottom who was pronounced Siddybo-tam.

 

Plus of course the London area of Battersea, or Battar-sea, and Tony Hancock’s Clapham, or Clarm.  Not to mention Bal-HAM, gateway to the South.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Martino

[St Enodoc]

43 minutes ago, Martino said:

I recall someone named Fetherstonehaw, that went by the pronunciation Fanshaw.   Also a gentleman named Sidebottom who was pronounced Siddybo-tam.

 

Plus of course the London area of Battersea, or Battar-sea, and Tony Hancock’s Clapham, or Clarm.  Not to mention Bal-HAM, gateway to the South.

St. Ockwell and St. Reatham too.

[TheQ]

9 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Not just Americans that get that one wrong, I've heard several ScotRail staff announce 'King-gussie'.

 

Another one from the Gaelic - Ceann a' Ghiùthsaich, Head of the Pine forest. (Roughly Cown-(rhyming with down) uh- you- sikhh (sikhh representing a short 'i' as in kid, followed by a guttural kh as in loch).

I lived in Inverness for some years everyone, the including the native Gaidhlig speakers, called it King-goossie, (as in Goose ) even the classmate who came from there said that, his nickname was goosie..

[TheQ]

 

8 hours ago, scottystitch said:

If only all the world’s place names had been named by the Māori, we’d be sweet as. Just about everything they right is pronounced phonetically (with a small few exceptions)!

 

regarding Welsh, it rings a bell in the back of my kind that way back the Scotland’s inhabitants spoke the same base language as the Welsh, hence so many Aber- place names, as an example. I can’t remember where I read that though. 
 

Best

 

Scott. 

That's because the Maori language was written into the English lettering system quite recently  (1820) . it's not had a thousand years of pronunciation changes, while the writing hasn't caught up.

[TheQ]

8 hours ago, scottystitch said:

If only all the world’s place names had been named by the Māori, we’d be sweet as. Just about everything they right is pronounced phonetically (with a small few exceptions)!

 

regarding Welsh, it rings a bell in the back of my kind that way back the Scotland’s inhabitants spoke the same base language as the Welsh, hence so many Aber- place names, as an example. I can’t remember where I read that though. 
 

Best

 

Scott. 

Most of the whole of Britain spoke what today would be Welsh, only the Irish, Anglo-Saxon , Danish, Viking, Norman, invaders changed that.

The last local native Welsh speaker of Scotland is believed to have died in the 1500s.

William Wallace. == William the Welshman.

Edited December 6, 2022 by TheQ

[TheQ]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

They're wrong.

I agree, I never picked up a Scots accent at all, because the Inverness - Morayshire accent is exceedingly mild and closer to the English, English pronunciation than anything between there and south of Yorkshire..

[Wheatley]

I once knew a chap called O'Nions, he was a station supervisor so it's at least vaguely railway related. No-one ever ever called him Onions, largely because he was about 6'8" and looked like Giant Haystacks poured into a BR uniform.   

[csiedmo]

23 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I raised that topic on page 2 ..... but nobody bit ! 😮

To my mind Slaithwaite is only Sla’wit if tha mun spayk i brooad dylekt. Saans daft if thas an offcumdun. 
 

Similarly following a historical society talk given in dialect it took my days to figure out where Ox’np was. I’ve never heard it pronounced like that in the wild, not that anyone of local origin would say Ox-en-hope either. More like Ox@nope. (@=schwa)