LMS D1832A Vans - Images sought.

[Aire Head]

I'm currently looking for images of LMS D1832A Vans.

 

I have checked the usual places (LMS Wagons Illustrated/HMRS/Paul Bartletts) however I ideally need to gather as many as possible. I'm looking for any liveries including internal user.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[Sitham Yard]

On 12/12/2022 at 10:07, Aire Head said:

I'm currently looking for images of LMS D1832A Vans.

 

I have checked the usual places (LMS Wagons Illustrated/HMRS/Paul Bartletts) however I ideally need to gather as many as possible. I'm looking for any liveries including internal user.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated

The Acquired Wagons of British Railways Volume 4 by David Larkin has 3 photos, M283328 & M151368 unfitted M215380 fitted. States "previously published information does not quite match later research" and that different lots were unfitted, Vacuum-piped and vacuum braked. The photo of M283328 is by the late Don Rowland and a larger reproduction appears in his book Twilight of the Goods. Both books recommended.

Andrew 

[kevinlms]

What's the difference between D1832 & D1832A?

[RonnieS]

Try and get a copy of this book. ) One on the cover (top) and 1 inside

[Aire Head]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

What's the difference between D1832 & D1832A?

 

I don't know except to say they are all listed as D1832A in the diagram book.

[41516]

One I remember - Copyright holder on Flickr says "do not share elsewhere" so here's a link  c.08/1963 - Dairycoates East, Hull, East Yorkshire.

[Flying Pig]

20 minutes ago, 41516 said:

One I remember - Copyright holder on Flickr says "do not share elsewhere" so here's a link  c.08/1963 - Dairycoates East, Hull, East Yorkshire.

 

And both other vans in the picture to LMS designs.  @Aire Head if you're doing what I think you're doing (preparing a submission to Rapido) then all the best with your endeavours!

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

I don't know except to say they are all listed as D1832A in the diagram book.

OK, looking at LMS Wagons Volume 1, there was probably no such thing as D1832. Really strange as generally the LMS issued new drawings for relatively minor changes, but apparently built unfitted & fitted to the same diagram no.

 

D1663, were an earlier version, the difference being, no roof vents or at the ends.

 

156079, is listed as sample numbers as both D1663 and D1832A, but photo shown of 156079 does have roof vents - so it's a D1832A and a mistake by the late Bob Essery.

 

The photo referred to by Flying Pig, has vents on the left one, but the right hand one isn't clear, so could be a D1663?

[Wickham Green too]

..... though absence of roof vents in BR days doesn't mean the LMS didn't put them on originally, of course ! 

[41516]

Do you want good pictures of clear prototypes, or 'mood' pictures?

 

Having a look through screenshots I've collated. This first one is good for those 'what colour grey' questions...  Video link

 

[Aire Head]

2 hours ago, 41516 said:

Do you want good pictures of clear prototypes, or 'mood' pictures?

 

Ideally clear pictures but "mood" pictures like this are good for colour reference!

[kevinlms]

17 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

..... though absence of roof vents in BR days doesn't mean the LMS didn't put them on originally, of course ! 

Indeed, but history has proven that just because you find a works drawing, doesn't prove ANY were actually built like it! A dated photo is the only way of finding out what it looked like - even then the date can be wrong!

[Barclay]

17 hours ago, kevinlms said:

OK, looking at LMS Wagons Volume 1, there was probably no such thing as D1832. Really strange as generally the LMS issued new drawings for relatively minor changes, but apparently built unfitted & fitted to the same diagram no.

 

D1663, were an earlier version, the difference being, no roof vents or at the ends.

 

156079, is listed as sample numbers as both D1663 and D1832A, but photo shown of 156079 does have roof vents - so it's a D1832A and a mistake by the late Bob Essery.

 

The photo referred to by Flying Pig, has vents on the left one, but the right hand one isn't clear, so could be a D1663?

It's interesting as the earlier book 'The LMS Wagon' refers only to D1832, and the later book you reference refers only to D1832A. The truth of it therefore seems as hazy as ever, though you might think that the more recent book represents Mr. E's most up to date information.

[Sitham Yard]

18 hours ago, kevinlms said:

 

 

D1663, were an earlier version, the difference being, no roof vents or at the ends.

 

156079, is listed as sample numbers as both D1663 and D1832A, but photo shown of 156079 does have roof vents - so it's a D1832A and a mistake by the late Bob Essery.

 

 

The key difference appears to be that D1832A had end vents but D1663 did not. 

 

55 minutes ago, Barclay said:

It's interesting as the earlier book 'The LMS Wagon' refers only to D1832, and the later book you reference refers only to D1832A. The truth of it therefore seems as hazy as ever, though you might think that the more recent book represents Mr. E's most up to date information.

Agreed. There are other examples notably in the books LMS Wagon Drawings No1 and No.2, published much later,  where the information published previously has been amended.

Andrew  

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sitham Yard
Typo

[Wickham Green too]

55 minutes ago, Barclay said:

... though you might think that the more recent book represents Mr. E's most up to date information.

... and, with all due respect, the late Mr.Essery was only human and no more immune to errors than the rest of us.

[bécasse]

26 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... and, with all due respect, the late Mr.Essery was only human and no more immune to errors than the rest of us.

I have seen some evidence which suggests that he was surprisingly prone to being told "tales", which he then went on to present as verbatim truth to others, even in circumstances where he should very definitely have "smelt a rat".

[41516]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

A dated photo is the only way of finding out what it looked like - even then the date can be wrong!

 

And even then in your typical 'in use' picture you'll be able to see a maximum of 2 or 3  of the following:

 

Roof vents

Vacuum pipes

Vacuum cylinder

2 or 4 shoe brakes

Tie bars

Number

 

It's good fun, innit?

[markw]

7 hours ago, Barclay said:

It's interesting as the earlier book 'The LMS Wagon' refers only to D1832, and the later book you reference refers only to D1832A. The truth of it therefore seems as hazy as ever, though you might think that the more recent book represents Mr. E's most up to date information.

There is a photo in Essery LMS wagons of 203975 with a different door catch without the horizontal handle, all other photos I have seen have the D1663 style catch. Could this be the reason for D1832/D1832A.

Edited December 14, 2022 by markw

[Aire Head]

55 minutes ago, markw said:

Could this be the reason for D1832/D1832A.

 

It certainly could be. The LMS was very funny about what would constitute a change of diagram

 

Type of brake fitted - No

 

Thickness of Planks used - Yes

 

As sad earlier it adds to the fun! 

[hmrspaul]

On 15/12/2022 at 03:57, Aire Head said:

 

It certainly could be. The LMS was very funny about what would constitute a change of diagram

 

Type of brake fitted - No

 

Thickness of Planks used - Yes

 

As sad earlier it adds to the fun! 

Diagrams were for the use of people who wanted a wagon to load. Even in BR times whether vacuum brake or unfitted appears to have been ignored, at least for the first decade. Difficult to understand now why this would be as this difference would appear important when operating a train. Now the thickness of sheeting affects the internal dimensions and it appears that 1/16th of an inch could make all the difference 🙂

 

Paul

Edited December 17, 2022 by hmrspaul

[Aire Head]

26 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

appears that 1/16th of an inch could make all the difference

I've been saying that to the Mrs for years.

 

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

Diagrams were for the use of people who wanted a wagon to load.

That's very insightful thank you.

[Wickham Green too]

One published source - named above - suggested that the presence or absence of curb rails on a batch of open wagons justified inclusion in a certain Diagram .... while ignoring the difference in door width which would put in the Diagram that official sources said they should be in ! 🙄