I don't think train operators want us to use trains.

[woodenhead]

What a long bl&&dy day.

 

Mrs W says yesterday evening, how about we go to Chester tomorrow for a day out, so I suggest lets get the train, it's an hour and a half and we can both partake of a few tipples.

 

All good, except we overslept slightly this morning so we didn't make the 10:19 TPE (more on this later) service that would plonk us at Liverpool South to catch a TFW into Chester.

 

So we arrive at Urmston station at 11:05 - the 11:22 to MCO is on time so I pays the £41.40 for the two tickets (hoooow much!!!!!!) and we await our train.  The arrival time comes, no sign of the train and it's a straight run almost from Flixton to Urmston.  Bearing in mind up until this moment the train had been showing bang on time, at exactly 11:22 the service changes to cancelled, where the heck did it cancel and why had they not notified us until the exact arrival time.  Given they had announced earlier that a TPE service from Cleethorpes had cancelled and was on the tannoy, and the next scheduled service to MCO was already showing at 12 delayed, why did they not know the 11:22 was cancelled especially when I found it had actually been cancelled at Liverpool South due to an unruly passenger.  They had known the train had been stopped for half an hour at 11:22 yet that one service had never shown as anything but on time, even the following service was showing it's delay caused by the 11:22 being delayed.  I would not have bought the tickets had I known there was such a delay. 

 

Anyway we had the tickets now so off to Starbucks to wind away an hour and a half to the next delayed train, the knock on effect of which was I now had to change at Newton Le Willows rather than go direct from MCO.  Anyway eventually arrived at Chester, got soaked, saw a lot of vagrants and druggies and spent the time in Pret-a-Manger or a pub before wandering back to the station for a return journey we hoped would be less dramatic.

 

With trains being cancelled all over the place - we decided the best course of action is to get the first train to Manchester even if it is going via a slightly longer route with more changes - we got a service to Leeds where we would change at Manchester Victoria, head back to Salford Crescent and then get a train to MCO and back to Urmston.  Simples, would be home in time for a nice big short at Urmston before 9pm.  Except the train to Leeds lost time, the connecting train to Salford lost even more time and could not make the connection at Salford Crescent to get us back to MCO - worse the apps don't help you find the alternative trains without starting over.  We asked if we could use the tickets to hop across Manchester on the Tram - we could give it a go, but they might argue why we were at Victoria when there are direct trains to MCO from Chester.  We took a chance, no inspections and arrived at 19:50 at MCO to get a Trans Pennine service at 20:10 and be home 10 minutes later.... But no, another TPE cancelled and another half hour at least to wait, so we went for that drink in Manchester instead then caught the bus instead which left 20 minute earlier than the train and dropped us by our street rather than a 30 minute ramble from the station.

 

Two delay repay claims gone in this evening.

 

Finally, what is going on with Trans Pennine this week - not only are most of their trains being cancelled, they are running services (or should be if they weren't all being cancelled) between Liverpool and Cleethorpes via Warrington Central stopping at Urmston.  But these trains are not in the timetable, the timetable shows via Newton-Le-Willows not Warrington, it would be great if they did operate this way again, but it appears to be a one week wonder, or actually a no show as every service is getting cancelled.

[Rivercider]

I remember hearing on the news earlier in the week that TransPennine Express had issued a 'do not travel'

warning due to a failure of their traincrew rostering software. The problem was expected to affect services

all week, which might explain some of your troubled journeys.

 

I spent the last 8 years of my railway career in traincrew rostering (for EWS), starting in the office after 

computerised had been introduced. One of my colleagues was an old school  pencil and rubber roster clerk,

who could do some work the old way. However if the system went down we were pretty much stumped,

 

cheers

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Rivercider said:

One of my colleagues was an old school  pencil and rubber roster clerk,

who could do some work the old way. However if the system went down we were pretty much stumped,

 

cheers

The problem is that recreating something manually is hard work, not because it can't be done, but because what is essential is to enter it on the computer when it comes back on line. A continuity of the records is required and it means extra work to do it manually, then update.

So unless the nature of the work is truly essential, (even if you pick out records of say, customers based on medical priorities), then it's actually better to just wait for the system to be operational again. Of course the longer the failure goes on for, the greater the pressure to 'get something working'.

[Wheatley]

Unruly youths can be a 5 minute job or it could require the full BTP Sergeant + 5 response depending on exactly what the little scrotes are doing. Your 11.22 ran but it took an hour to get bobbies there to get them off, at which point Control decided to run it non-stop to mitigate the delay and protect the back working. Its one of those fluid things where nothing is decided until everything is decided otherwise you just end up constantly issuing then countermanding information to passengers. 

 

TPE and Northern were both warning of significant disruption yesterday . There's an overtime ban on which screws up more than you think, it effectively takes away a lot of the usual short term contingencies to mitigate disruption so the advice is there for a reason. 

 

Replacing a computerised rostering system overnight requires more than pen and paper, it requires all the people who used to hold the pens and they aren't there anymore. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Wheatley

[woodenhead]

@Wheatley Yes the 11:22 did fly past us on it's way to Manchester and fly back the other way after we got back to the station to await the delayed 12:19 service.

 

The problem is every time I convince Mrs W to leave the car at home, the railway manages to demonstrate to her why she should avoid it like the plague.

 

Ironically today, the only trains running to Urmston are Trans Pennine Express, not a Northern Rail service in sight on Real Time Trains.

 

But it's good to have additional trains now stopping at Urmston, very good if I want to go to Doncaster in Feb.....

[The Stationmaster]

Computerising anything where teh system does the thinking for you instead of you having to do it yourself de-skills the workforce and - as 'Wheatley' points out - also removes the workforce who used tom do the job along with their skills and experience.   Back in the 1990s I looked at various computer based rostering systems (after cancelling one which the company had iunder development when i arrived - it was rubbish, poorly specified and being badly designed by a software house) but none of them in those days was much good.  The one the company bought after I'd left was one which I'd rapidly rejected but it was ditched after a few months - the people who who bought it knew the square root of s*d all about rostering.

 

Obviously software has improved and hopefully what is now in use around various operators was bought by fully informed buyers who new what was needed.  But that doesn't mean that people who have only ever used machines to work out rosters necessarily understand how to do it or, critically, understand exactly hpw the software makes alterations to the base roster.

[Rivercider]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The problem is that recreating something manually is hard work, not because it can't be done, but because what is essential is to enter it on the computer when it comes back on line. A continuity of the records is required and it means extra work to do it manually, then update.

So unless the nature of the work is truly essential, (even if you pick out records of say, customers based on medical priorities), then it's actually better to just wait for the system to be operational again. Of course the longer the failure goes on for, the greater the pressure to 'get something working'.

I think it would also be the case that if there was a software problem when there was a normal timetable running,

with the majority of the booked turns already covered for the week, then it would be possible to stick close to the booked service. However as has been pointed out, there is not a normal service running. Xmas week would involve a revised timetable to start with, then add in industrial action and an overtime ban - it makes me soooo glad I am no longer a roster clerk,

 

cheer

[4630]

I have a lot of sympathy with your experience @woodenhead. 
 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the current industrial disputes on the railway, both Northern and TransPennine Express (TPE) appear to have ‘thrown in the towel’ on a number of days recently with services across the Pennines between Leeds and Manchester. 
 

TPE also appear to have several self inflicted issues, of which the IT/rostering software is only the latest.

 

And of course, behind the scenes lies the dead hand of the DfT and their micro-management of much of the passenger railway.

 

Suffice to say that, like you, I try to encourage Mrs 4630 that our trips to Leeds or York would be more enjoyable using the train.

 

Fat chance at the moment.  it pains me to say it as a life long rail enthusiast and advocate, but we’d rather take our chances using the M62 and various alternative local routes.
 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

@woodenhead

 

Anecdotal response to M'Lady from a friend in t'management at GWR :

 

Don't you know there's a war on?

[woodenhead]

34 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

@woodenhead

 

Anecdotal response to M'Lady from a friend in t'management at GWR :

 

Don't you know there's a war on?

It's more than this for Mrs W - the state of Northern Stations, juxtapose with Merseyrail's station at Newton Le Willows, the state of the toilets, the endless waiting around for trains in those locations etc.

 

She, and really we, would rather be out in the countryside that in the city as well, the state of Chester yesterday was not any rail company's fault.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I've given up even thinking about taking the train. Even if I am fairly confident of being able to get there, the thought of not being to get back puts me off. My three local operators (Northern at Maryport, and Avanti and TPE at Penrith) are probably the worst three in the country.

 

Nevertheless, my sympathies are still with the railway workers. The management of all three businesses clearly have customer service a long way down their agenda, and the government's absolute refusal to get involved in sorting out a disfunctional system that is partly of their creation shows an utter disregard for ordinary people. But it's okay, I'm sure the markets will sort it out.

 

There's a good piece by a TPE driver in yesterday's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/23/passengers-northern-railways-driver-transpennine-express-staff

[franciswilliamwebb]

15 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

There's a good piece by a TPE driver in yesterday's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/23/passengers-northern-railways-driver-transpennine-express-staff

 

Thanks for that link👍🏻

[woodenhead]

I didn't know that under the management contracts the TOCs were no longer getting penalised for cancellations.  It does rather take away any attempt to run a service if there is no penalty.

[SHMD]

TPE have have an absolutely abysmal record - but it's not just recently either.

(That's why I had a couple of "Status Updates", regarding TPE, this week.)

 

A couple of months ago, I went onto the TPE website to look up the punctuality reports (under performance transparency).

 

They latest one (for 16 Oct to 12 Nov) is here :-

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/about-us/passengers-charter/performance-transparency

 

It shows that less than %41 of services arrived at the final destination ("Right time arrival at final destination")

(Are previous reports available anywhere?)

 

One bright bit in the current report is that of all the services run, during Oct 16th to Nov 12th, only 10 were later than an hour with none later than 2 hours !   :)   

(..oh, wait a minute - that's because if any train is so late that it affects the return working, then they cap it/cancel it/turn it back/terminate it/etc. All things so hated by passengers.)

 

 

Kev.

(Edit due to the RMWeb Editor locking up!)

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by SHMD

[Mallard60022]

Fortunately, at 36E we have LNER (run by the Operator of last resort/basically Nationlised and they are rarely disrupted, apart from Infrastructure failures.

Then we have 'ull trains, almost a Family run Company with a great Staff ethic. Now with newer Trains, the service is exceptional. I can get to Lundin on about 90 minutes and mostly for less than £20 (Advance with old git's RC), Donny in 12 minutes and York in 35 minutes.

Recently herself returned from Berwick to 36E in 3.5 hours and it cost her £23!  

The services from 36E to Lincoln and Sheffield/Nottingham suffer more but are still pretty good overall. Private this lot, but well staffed except at weekends sometimes.

I'm lucky I don't have to rely on Trains but I'd choose the train to any of these destinations rather than drive, unless it was a last minute emergency. 

I'm not including disruption, because of Industrial Action, as I am a life long Union Man and I do not want to discuss that here. Short term pain for long term gain is all I will say.

P   

[D9020 Nimbus]

I thought Northern was also run by the "operator of last resort".

 

And what's MCO? Oxford Road?

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I thought Northern was also run by the "operator of last resort".

 

And what's MCO? Oxford Road?

MCO is Oxford Rd, the draughtiest station in Manchester when your train has been cancelled or delayed by 30 mins.

[APOLLO]

Our railways can't be left to go on as they are for much longer. If they are then services will be permanently cut and lines / stations put under threat, and this at a time of energy crisis / climate crisis etc when we are being ever told to ditch our cars and use public transport.

 

I despair, I really do. Untold damage is currently being done and our Government / Unions / Workers (etc) seem not to care or even be interested. 

 

Same in NHS, Post, etc etc.

 

Brit15

[SHMD]

..oh I think a lot care and are interested.... but they have been banging their heads against a brick wall for too long AND every new decision only seems to does make thinks much much worse.

 

That Guardian piece summed things up pretty accurately..

 

 

Kev.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

In another topic here, it's been said:

 

Quote

The DfT are expecting (demanding) cuts to costs from the TOCs. 

 

If the TOCs are just operating/implementing UK Gov policy, one has to wonder what the end-game actually is.

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It's more than this for Mrs W - the state of Northern Stations, juxtapose with Merseyrail's station at Newton Le Willows. 

 

Newton le Willows is Northern (apart from the car park) despite what the signage would have you believe. It has, of course, had a considerable amount of money thrown at it recently. 

 

1 hour ago, Jeremy C said:

 a disfunctional system that is partly entirely of their creation

Fixed that for you. 

 

The transpennine route was wobbly on a good day before the current disruption, the game of 4D Jenga required to make the Castlefield corridor work is a joke. But that's what happens when you demand a timetable based on four-tracking it, cancel the funding for the four-tracking then insist that the TOCs implement the timetable anyway. The result was May 2018. The reduced timetables introduced since then have helped but it's still very easy to make it all fall over very quickly. 

 

Ironically a lot of the current restrictions around Manchester are due to Transpennine Route Upgrade works, there are a lot of Newton Heath units being serviced and fuelled elsewhere to allow overnight possessions for TRU for example. 

[KeithMacdonald]

Do any RMWeb members have access to the Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook?
 

Quote

 

The Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook (PDFH) summarises over twenty years of research on rail demand forecasting, providing guidance on aspects such as the effects of service quality, fares and external factors on rail demand. It is recognised within the industry as the key source of evidence in this area, which is reflected by the board membership of the scheme.

 

 

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/pdfc/about-the-pdfh.html

 

If there's a "cunning plan", perhaps this is where it might be found?

[Mallard60022]

30 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Our railways can't be left to go on as they are for much longer. If they are then services will be permanently cut and lines / stations put under threat, and this at a time of energy crisis / climate crisis etc when we are being ever told to ditch our cars and use public transport.

 

I despair, I really do. Untold damage is currently being done and our Government / Unions / Workers (etc) seem not to care or even be interested. 

 

Same in NHS, Post, etc etc.

 

Brit15

I think you need to leave out Unions and Workers. They are the ones who care and the most interested, hence the situation.

Have you not noticed a pattern in this? NHS, Post etc etc?

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

 

The transpennine route was wobbly on a good day before the current disruption, the game of 4D Jenga required to make the Castlefield corridor work is a joke. But that's what happens when you demand a timetable based on four-tracking it, cancel the funding for the four-tracking then insist that the TOCs implement the timetable anyway. The result was May 2018. The reduced timetables introduced since then have helped but it's still very easy to make it all fall over very quickly. 

 

 

Ah yes, the route that would have fixed the into Victoria from Newton Le Willows, out to Salford Crescent and change to a service to Oxford Road.  Of course I could have gone direct Chester-Oxford road, but I wasn't about to let the gift horse of a train in platform heading to Manchester out of my grasp.  Could also have changed at Newton Le Willows for a train to Oxford Road too, but I was already juggling the suggested route via Salford Crescent to load up another 'next train from Newton Le Willows to Manchester' option.

 

Perhaps I am out of practice, realised last night that I was getting on the first bus to anywhere since before Covid, I wasn't even sure if they were accepting cash again after being cashless during Covid.

[ikcdab]

28 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I think you need to leave out Unions and Workers. They are the ones who care and the most interested, hence the situation.

Have you not noticed a pattern in this? NHS, Post etc etc?

No no no.  The unions clearly have a massive political point to make..... They are affiliated to the labour party after all.  The unions are making a meal of this for their own political ends.  They care not for their own members, just for what they can do to change the political situation.  That goes for rail, NHS and the post.