Thoughts about TT

[GreenDiesel]

I'm fascinated by Hornby's new TT launch, and find myself thinking about it often, watching TT videos on Youtube, etc. About 8 years ago, I switched from 00 to N, so I don't think I can really afford another scale switch, unless it's a few years in the future.  I've always thought TT was the ideal scale and I really enjoy watch videos of TT layouts in operation.

 

A few thoughts/questions: It would seem strange (and limiting), I think, to buy all of ones products from the same manufacturer. In 00 and N, I'm used to sourcing locos and rolling stock from a variety of companies -- both new and very old -- and this partly adds to the charm of having a layout, putting together a believable layout from items that are either brand new or 40+ years old. Also, does anyone know if Bachmann or any other manufacturers will get into TT120? I could see that happening, although it's curious the Heljan recently pulled away. 

 

Mods: This post is NOT meant to be controversial, etc., I'm just asking about and posting thoughts that have come to mind as I digest the TT news. Please feel free to take it down, though, if necessary.

[Robin Brasher]

I expect other manufacturers will make TT:120 items as there are gaps in the Hornby range.

 

Other suppliers may may signals, turntables, level crossings, goods locomotives and goods rolling stock, scenic backgrounds and platforms.

 

 

[ianmacc]

A search on eBay of “1:120 scale” turns up lots of random items that are already suitable to individualise an otherwise pure Hornby layout. A lovely range of buses for example. 

[GreenDiesel]

51 minutes ago, ianmacc said:

A search on eBay of “1:120 scale” turns up lots of random items that are already suitable to individualise an otherwise pure Hornby layout. A lovely range of buses for example. 

Yes, that makes sense re eBay, etc. However, I was mainly thinking of rolling stock and locos.

But with this version of TT being only 2.5mm scale, you'd think you could use (fudge) some N scale building (especially if placed in the distance) and maybe even some HO buildings?

[woodenhead]

I might be wrong but Hornby might be gambling no-one else enters, TT was a clean slate for them to go at and they've already spoilt the Heljan entry and very quickly have got in on major loco classes and coaching stock items to keep others at bay.  Also the direct only sales and social media approach means it's customers of TT operate in an contained echo chamber so they don't see competitors products when they do appear.

 

So maybe someone else will announce something, or maybe they won't if Hornby continue to aggressively attempt to keep the scale to themselves which ultimately is what they want for maximum return.

[AndrueC]

Seems to me like a way to boost sales. Offer something new and different and hope people fall for it. Can't really blame anyone but I'd rather the resources be put into existing scales.

[GreenDiesel]

25 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I might be wrong but Hornby might be gambling no-one else enters, TT was a clean slate for them to go at and they've already spoilt the Heljan entry and very quickly have got in on major loco classes and coaching stock items to keep others at bay.  Also the direct only sales and social media approach means it's customers of TT operate in an contained echo chamber so they don't see competitors products when they do appear.

 

So maybe someone else will announce something, or maybe they won't if Hornby continue to aggressively attempt to keep the scale to themselves which ultimately is what they want for maximum return.

 

25 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I might be wrong but Hornby might be gambling no-one else enters, TT was a clean slate for them to go at and they've already spoilt the Heljan entry and very quickly have got in on major loco classes and coaching stock items to keep others at bay.  Also the direct only sales and social media approach means it's customers of TT operate in an contained echo chamber so they don't see competitors products when they do appear.

 

So maybe someone else will announce something, or maybe they won't if Hornby continue to aggressively attempt to keep the scale to themselves which ultimately is what they want for maximum return.

Interesting! Yet, based on the past, if Hornby TT120 does do well, I wouldn't be surprised it Bachmann wanted a piece of the pie as well, and started offering their locos, filling in the gaps, etc. Who's to stop them & the competition would be good.

 

[GreenDiesel]

12 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

Seems to me like a way to boost sales. Offer something new and different and hope people fall for it. Can't really blame anyone but I'd rather the resources be put into existing scales.

Yes, good point, but I still think TT is a great (ideal) scale and it's surprising it's taken this long to become so popular (realize I'm speaking in very general terms.)

[Dunsignalling]

58 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I might be wrong but Hornby might be gambling no-one else enters, TT was a clean slate for them to go at and they've already spoilt the Heljan entry and very quickly have got in on major loco classes and coaching stock items to keep others at bay.  Also the direct only sales and social media approach means it's customers of TT operate in an contained echo chamber so they don't see competitors products when they do appear.

 

So maybe someone else will announce something, or maybe they won't if Hornby continue to aggressively attempt to keep the scale to themselves which ultimately is what they want for maximum return.

After Hornby made their pre-emptive strike against Heljan, I don't think any other r-t-r brand will bother with TT:120 in the foreseeable future.

 

I consider that most of them (probably correctly) think that Hornby will have to reduce their commitment to OO. They can't invest the same resources twice. That will create even more opportunities for competitors old and new in a larger, more familiar market with an already quantified customer base.

 

What I think we will see is things like card (or laser cut wood, like those from Peco) building kits that can be reduced from OO, or (more likely, IMHO) enlarged from N, being made available in 1:120. A lot of other accessories already exist, catering for a scale that is rather more established elsewhere and there will be plenty of scope for items produced by 3D printing..

 

John

Edited December 31, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, GreenDiesel said:

 

Interesting! Yet, based on the past, if Hornby TT120 does do well, I wouldn't be surprised it Bachmann wanted a piece of the pie as well, and started offering their locos, filling in the gaps, etc. Who's to stop them & the competition would be good.

 

It will all depend on the size of the pie, if Hornby do all the main classes like they appear to be aiming at there won't be much for anyone else to go at and marketing to those TT120 customers will be harder when they are locked behind a wall of Hornby social media.  It's unlikely a lot of OO and N modellers will sell up and go all in for Hornby lower fidelity TT whilst there are companies like Accurascale, Revolution, Bachmann, Cavalex, Rapido and Dapol turning out high quality stuff in OO and N.

[Dunsignalling]

25 minutes ago, GreenDiesel said:

 

Interesting! Yet, based on the past, if Hornby TT120 does do well, I wouldn't be surprised it Bachmann wanted a piece of the pie as well, and started offering their locos, filling in the gaps, etc. Who's to stop them & the competition would be good.

 

Only once Hornby has proved it is commercially sustainable, and that's several years away even if things go really well initially. 

 

Bachmann has enough trouble getting all the production slots they need from their parent company for the OO products they want to make so I'd bet on them being the least likely to join in. 

 

Hornby is taking one heck of a gamble on this, and nobody else needs to follow them. Carving up Hornby's share of the OO market will be far less risky.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[britishcolumbian]

As far as buildings and such go, a number of small British producers have already jumped in and made things available, laser cut kits for example. Lincoln Locos have made their range available in 1:120 as well (I already have a class 22 shell), and there is a wide range of existing product in 1:120 that can potentially be used for kitbashing.

 

It consistently seems to me that British modellers forget that 1:120 is neither a new scale, nor is it exclusive to Britain. It is a global scale. Continental interest is already there for British outline models, and there are a number of British locomotive types that are used in Central Europe (Poland and Hungary for example) where TT is already popular. I don't think it'll be too long until a manufacturer like MTB or Piko comes out with one of those types. And I think Tillig eventually will get involved, because they've always seen 1:120 as *their* playground.

 

Yes it's just my 2d but I think we'll be seeing other manufacturers of rolling stock joining in sooner rather than later.

[Allegheny1600]

47 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

After Hornby made their pre-emptive strike against Heljan, I don't think any other r-t-r brand will bother with TT:120 in the foreseeable future.

There you go again with your suppositions and half truths.

 

What actually happened was that after the Peco announcement, Heljan jumped on the bandwagon and staked their claim with ONE loco announcement and maybe two others, much later on.

When Hornby made their large range announcement, Heljan pulled out - with relief that they didn’t have to continue from the way I read it.

 

While there most likely won’t be another British manufacturer making such a large announcement, the genie is out of the bottle and smaller concerns will continue to enhance the range.

[GreenDiesel]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Only once Hornby has proved it is commercially sustainable, and that's several years away even if things go really well initially. 

 

Bachmann has enough trouble getting all the production slots they need from their parent company for the OO products they want to make so I'd bet on them being the least likely to join in. 

 

Hornby is taking one heck of a gamble on this, and nobody else needs to follow them. Carving up Hornby's share of the OO market will be far less risky.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Interesting. Sounds like Hornby has really thought this through.

[GreenDiesel]

Thanks for this feedback. It sounds as it Hornby has really thought this through. My current N scale layout is about 8 years old. When It comes time to start a new layout (in a few years), then maybe I will consider TT. By then, we should also know if it Hornby TT was successful or not.

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, GreenDiesel said:

Thanks for this feedback. It sounds as it Hornby has really thought this through. My current N scale layout is about 8 years old. When It comes time to start a new layout (in a few years), then maybe I will consider TT. By then, we should also know if it Hornby TT was successful or not.

The critical thing for Hornby will be creating sales growth in TT:120 to outpace any decline in OO. Unless they have financed the new venture without impacting their investment in OO, any "fightback" they might contemplate mounting in the latter will be limited.

 

Aside from Hornby wanting to do TT:120, it probably also represents a recognition that the OO market has changed in ways that make their former overwhelming dominance untenable.

 

If they are smart (and I think they fundamentally are beneath the hype) Hornby will already have a range of options worked out to put before their new "company doctor" CEO. Those will certainly include a frank estimate of the critical market share they must retain in OO over the medium-to-long term, and/or what steps might be necessary to make a lesser one viable.

 

In the fullness of time, investment will be apportioned between the two scales to (hopefully) achieve an ideal balance, but that cannot happen until they know how the launch of TT:120 has panned out in terms of actual sales. Pre-orders are reassuring, but it's the money spent by the majority who don't buy that way that will really count.

 

If I'm still around in ten years time, I'll be fascinated to see how it all ends up, but my judgement is that Hornby will still be making both OO and TT:120 models (FWIW, I think it will be a goer, though maybe not as quickly as hoped). Equally optimistically, I think a good balance between the two scales within Hornby, along with an OO market more evenly shared by a number of brands will be healthy for both the industry and the hobby. I also think that one or two other r-t-r brands will have a presence in TT:120 by then, though not necessarily/exclusively ones we yet know about!  

 

A Happy New Year to devotees of either scale (and both).

 

John

 

  

Edited January 1, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[ianmacc]

There are already a few UK outline card kits resized to TT on eBay including some very useful ones such as Lidl supermarkets etc (other grocers are available)

[Chris M]

I think TT:120 will appeal to new entrants but I can’t see why an established UK outline modeller would be interested . The main reason I say this is that it will take a long time develop a serious range of locos and stock. What has been announced so far is very much train set territory ( albeit good quality) rather than proper model railway. As an N gauge modeller I am often a little frustrated at the locos and liveries that are not currently available in N. However,  when I look at all that has been announced for TT:120 so far I find myself being pleased with the extensive coverage we have in N. Having seen the Hornby TT:120 layout at Warley NEC I can see it is a little larger than N but, due to the quirks of the British scales, I’m not sure it’s big enough to make it worth wanting to have in place of N. I fully understand the good points of having a correct scale to gauge relationship and having stock that is the same scale as foreign stock. Indeed I fully support that approach. The problem is that 3mm scale was probably the best scale we have ever had in terms of combining stage presence and ability to fit things into an average room. TT:120, although better in many ways, somehow doesn’t seem to achieve that golden balance. Well not for UK stock. It’s a different story for US and European stock.

 

it will be interesting to see how it develops over the next five years. It kind of feels like fly or sink for Hornby. I’m sure they have given the matter a lot of careful thought and that the numbers look promising.

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, ianmacc said:

There are already a few UK outline card kits resized to TT on eBay including some very useful ones such as Lidl supermarkets etc (other grocers are available)

Every Lidl helps 😀

[RJS1977]

14 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

There you go again with your suppositions and half truths.

 

What actually happened was that after the Peco announcement, Heljan jumped on the bandwagon and staked their claim with ONE loco announcement and maybe two others, much later on.

 

 

Agreed.

 

It's clear from how little time has elapsed between Hornby's announcement and the first models becoming available that this is something Hornby had been working on for a considerable time prior to the announcement.

Hornby didn't make their announcement to "spike" Heljan, they announced projects that were already well-advanced. If anything, as you suggest, Hornby's announcement probably did Heljan a favour. Hornby could have waited until the first models were in the country and made the announcement at Warley. However (possibly) bringing the announcement forwards a couple of months will have saved Heljan two months' development costs which could be put towards something else.

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

I think TT:120 will appeal to new entrants but I can’t see why an established UK outline modeller would be interested . The main reason I say this is that it will take a long time develop a serious range of locos and stock. What has been announced so far is very much train set territory ( albeit good quality) rather than proper model railway. As an N gauge modeller I am often a little frustrated at the locos and liveries that are not currently available in N. However,  when I look at all that has been announced for TT:120 so far I find myself being pleased with the extensive coverage we have in N. Having seen the Hornby TT:120 layout at Warley NEC I can see it is a little larger than N but, due to the quirks of the British scales, I’m not sure it’s big enough to make it worth wanting to have in place of N. I fully understand the good points of having a correct scale to gauge relationship and having stock that is the same scale as foreign stock. Indeed I fully support that approach. The problem is that 3mm scale was probably the best scale we have ever had in terms of combining stage presence and ability to fit things into an average room. TT:120, although better in many ways, somehow doesn’t seem to achieve that golden balance. Well not for UK stock. It’s a different story for US and European stock.

 

it will be interesting to see how it develops over the next five years. It kind of feels like fly or sink for Hornby. I’m sure they have given the matter a lot of careful thought and that the numbers look promising.

 

I agree with much of what you said but maybe you should take a look at the "Hornby announce TT:120" thread that has been running since early October when this announcement was first made and is now up to 159 pages. There are a number of modellers on there that are modelling in various scales and gauges and are dipping a toe in the water to see what TT:120 has to offer. And not just UK modellers either.

 

But then according to SK, the target market isn't established modellers anyway. It is supposedly aimed at getting new entrants into the hobby - space-starved people and families who won't worry about running the Era 3 Scotman set alongside an Era 7 HST and an Era 11 Class 66 that's pulling 21T minerals and a brake van.

 

They must be doing something right because both batches of The Scotman have sold out (somewhere near 2,000 units) as has at least one of the resin buildings. It is just unfortunate that they couldn't release more of the stuff earlier, especially in the runup to Christmas.

 

[DCB]

The real benefit to modellers is the availability of modern efficient chassis and motors for TT3.  I have used Triang TT3 chassis for 00 scale locos (using Romford axles and wheels)  and if I can source longer axles look forward to using the new TT 120 chassis for the same purpose.  I am guessing Hornby aimed for what remains of the Christmas train set market and got their timing wrong.  Could be some heavy discounting from folk who pre ordered.   It will be years before TT120 becomes a real choice for average enthusiasts, fine for the guy who wants to run Frying Scotsthing and three Pullmans round and round a 4 X 3ft layout, not so clever for someone who wants a detailed BLT.   So annoying that they didn't go for 3mm scale, the most used architectural scale with loads of scenery available, especially if they had used 14mm track.   I suppose they had their reasons, but hey so did British  Leyland when the produced the Allagro 

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Every Lidl helps 😀

Don't tell Tesco!!! 🤣

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

 

They must be doing something right because both batches of The Scotman have sold out (somewhere near 2,000 units) as has at least one of the resin buildings. It is just unfortunate that they couldn't release more of the stuff earlier, especially in the runup to Christmas.

 

Seemingly bought by YouTubers keen to tell us their views on TT120, there are only so many times I can watch a video of an A3 and three Pullman coaches going around a loop of track on a table or on a wooden floor.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

The real benefit to modellers is the availability of modern efficient chassis and motors for TT3.  I have used Triang TT3 chassis for 00 scale locos (using Romford axles and wheels)  and if I can source longer axles look forward to using the new TT 120 chassis for the same purpose.  I am guessing Hornby aimed for what remains of the Christmas train set market and got their timing wrong.  Could be some heavy discounting from folk who pre ordered.   It will be years before TT120 becomes a real choice for average enthusiasts, fine for the guy who wants to run Frying Scotsthing and three Pullmans round and round a 4 X 3ft layout, not so clever for someone who wants a detailed BLT.   So annoying that they didn't go for 3mm scale, the most used architectural scale with loads of scenery available, especially if they had used 14mm track.   I suppose they had their reasons, but hey so did British  Leyland when the produced the Allagro 

 

Because TT3 was a dead end well over fifty years ago? Apart from a few advocates that use 3mm for finescale it's nothing more than a retro scale with a handful of people using old models, a bit like those that just use old Hornby Dublo to recapture their youth.

 

TT:120 is a well known worldwide scale/gauge. If you look at the track, scenery, lineside structures, road vehicles, figures, etc. there are thousands of items available already for it.

 

That's even before Hornby and PECO dipped their toes in. it was only the British locos and rolling stock that were missing.

 

 

Jason