Thoughts about TT

[Dunsignalling]

38 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

My point was that if a current continental manufacturer of TT:120 thought it worthwhile then they could start to produce UK outline. After all, Hornby produce a small amount of continental outline via Arnold, so why not the reverse?

 

And Heljan (obviously not a TT:120 manufacturer) were prepared to give it a go until they found that Hornby were way ahead of them in their proposed developments. And Heljan's signoff seemed to imply that it was not necessarily forever.

Continental HO manufacturers, but for a couple of abortive dabbles, have never bothered to have a go at the much larger UK OO market in what, eighty-odd years, so I wouldn't hold my breath. 

 

Heljan might come back, but I don't think they'll be in any hurry to do so. I'd expect them to wait until somebody else bites and see how Hornby reacts before having another go.

 

Again, several years down the road.

 

I can quite understand why TT:120 adopters want the security of having more than one producer on board but it'll only happen on their own terms. All their business models are very different from Hornby's in both volume and emphasis and they don't have the diverse fall-back positions in non-railway markets that Hornby Group enjoys, should it not work out. For those reasons, I very much doubt more than one or two will even dip a toe in the water until TT:120 at least approaches N Gauge in popularity. 

 

Hornby's direct-sales only policy also means that retailers have no incentive to support TT:120 on any level when they are excluded from selling any of the big-ticket items. Hornby will (imho) only open the range up to them if they consider it unavoidable!

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Jeff Smith]

A few years ago I got interested in Bachmann On30 products, I'm not sure how many years it had been going but there was a wealth of locos and rolling stock available at considerable discount.  There were also trainsets.  Lately this seems to have dried up in terms of new introductions.  This was a Bachmann initiative but of course was in an established scale however no other major manufacturer jumped on the bandwagon.  S scale is similar story in the US, being supported (I believe) by only one manufacturer.

[Jeff Smith]

6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Heljan might come back, but I don't think they'll be in any hurry to do so. I'd expect them to wait until somebody else bites and see how Hornby reacts before having another go.

You could argue that Hornby has laid it's cards on the table in terms of immediate and future offerings so there could be room for additional complementary products, I'm thinking GWR, Southern, etc.

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Though the pool of available narrow gauge prototypes is small,

Cough, cough!

 

The pool is huge, and barely dipped into.

 

The locos that are being made in r-t-r 009 so far are the most prominent of the most well known, the equivalents of ‘Flying Scotsman’ if you like, but there are a still a several sub-3ft common carrier lines yet to be touched, and there is a wealth of standardised industrial types to go too, some of which were sold to common carriers as well. Minitrains are steadily chewing through the more common continental military and industrial locos, but I’m not aware of them making any British-built ones yet.

 

As regards TT, I was initially quite keen, fancying giving it a try for a complete change from what I’ve been doing for the past decade, but Heljan’s withdrawal was a major “cool down” for me, because I’m not at all sure I want to get to something for which there is only one supplier of r-t-r motive power. Step back; see how it goes; maybe get keen again later; maybe.
 

 

[rekoboy]

I would like to pick up Dunsignalling's comment that other (European) manufacturers would not have the financial resources nor the initiative to enter the British TT 1:120 market - but TT 1:120, while a significantly smaller market than H0, is not by any means a niche area, and the big hitters such as PIKO and Roco have entered the TT market with purpose and enthusiasm, PIKO especially, because there is quite simply profit to be made. If Dr Wilfer, the very enterprising boss of PIKO, sees a possibility for a profitable entry into the UK TT 1:120 market then it will happen - of that you can be certain.

Edited January 1, 2023 by rekoboy

[britishcolumbian]

5 hours ago, DCB said:

 So annoying that they didn't go for 3mm scale, the most used architectural scale with loads of scenery available, especially if they had used 14mm track.   I suppose they had their reasons,

1:120 is a global scale in the model railway world, and they were for sure counting on selling product in the Central European market. Anything *other* than proper TT scale would have been silly.

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

 

All true, but as @britishcolumbian keeps reminding the naysayers in the other thread, Hornby isn't the only player in this field - one of whom seems to consider it as their pitch (was it Piko ?). And I don't think any of Hornby's tactics will stop another manufacturer if they think they can make a profit in TT:120.

 

Tillig.

[APOLLO]

24 minutes ago, rekoboy said:

Hornby has already made a very sound impression in Germany, the homeland, you might say, of modern TT 1:120 - there are numerous comments and first test reports on the TT-Board forum, and the overall opinion seems to be very positive, indeed, although there are some negative comments on quality control at Uncle Wu's Hornby plant! German TT fans are particularly impressed by the generally finescale appearance of Scotsman and the Pullmans - they see the overall finish as equal to other mainstream manufacturers - but at an astonishingly keen price. Numerous TT-Boarders (including me) have orders with Hornby although we are generally not modellers of the UK scene! It is always possible to find an excuse why an LNER Pacific is at work on a German main line! Hornby's thrust into the German market has awoken a huge amount of interest in British railways, especially the LNER, among TT-Boarders, and I have already been asked to write pieces for that forum on Sir Nigel Gresley and his locos. For German speakers here is the link....https://www.tt-board.de/forum/threads/Hornby-tt-120.63983/

 

In google click on the link above then click on English in the pop up translation box, all is translated.

 

Some very constructive and interesting comments, especially in comparing "Our" A1 to "Their" O1, and quite a few references to the UK as "The Island" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

THE island indeed, birthplace of the railway !!

 

Brit15

 

 

[britishcolumbian]

26 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Continental HO manufacturers, but for a couple of abortive dabbles, have never bothered to have a go at the much larger UK OO market in what, eighty-odd years, so I wouldn't hold my breath. 

Because there has never been much that would sell in botht eh UK and the Continent.

 

I'll eat my foot if someone doesn't end up producing the British classes that are operated on the Continent - TT is the second most popular scale in Hungary and Poland, both of which have British locomotives in use... if MTB (IMO the likeliest to jump in first) or Piko or Tillig tool for example an 86 up to sell in Hungary naturally they will do British versions too.

 

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

You could argue that Hornby has laid it's cards on the table in terms of immediate and future offerings so there could be room for additional complementary products, I'm thinking GWR, Southern, etc.

 

But they'd probably be wise to avoid anything that Hornby has previously offered in OO! 😉 ☠️

 

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Because there has never been much that would sell in botht eh UK and the Continent.

 

I'll eat my foot if someone doesn't end up producing the British classes that are operated on the Continent - TT is the second most popular scale in Hungary and Poland, both of which have British locomotives in use... if MTB (IMO the likeliest to jump in first) or Piko or Tillig tool for example an 86 up to sell in Hungary naturally they will do British versions too.

 

 

But that's a long way from any broad-based commitment to UK-outline and would be self-restricting to the post-privatisation era. Prior to that there was (freight stock aside) very little that appeared on both sides of the channel.

 

In any event, It might be more likely that Hornby would produce a Hungarian 86 on the back of making a BR one. 

 

[Dava]

I received the Hornby TT Club magazine yesterday and though I'd seen it online, the print version and catalogue are impressive marketing even though some of the details (Duchesses for £118.99) are incorrect. The market response seems to have been strong and its interesting to see from Rekoboy's post the scale of interest from German TT modellers too.

On Facebook there is a https://m.facebook.com/groups/britishtt/ with 1600+ followers. 

 

As a new scale; gauge combination in the Uk it has a number of strengths. I have modelled in TT-3 but the lack of new development led me into other areas and more recently 7mm scale. I'm actively considering TT:120 with a small project - I'm interested in smaller locos and lines, not roundy-roundy express trains. So the 08 will be a first Hornby purchase with a selection of goods stock. Its curious that the goods wagon offer doesnt really match the locos available & announced. But already we can see 3D print designers offering models rescaled to TT:120 and I hope more will print in the UK rather than being dependent on the very expensive Shapeways service.

 

I'd like to see someone - not necessarily Hornby - provide an 0-6-0 chassis which (like the TT-3 Jinty) could match a range of bodyshell kits or 3d prints. Even the tender-drive option which Union Mills offer in N gauge could work here. The scale needs the wider aftermarket of kits & add-ons to become viable scale, and hopefully PECO will lead this. I'm surprised they have not announced a few more wagon kits, but they may do this if the market looks attractive.

 

Dava

[britishcolumbian]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

But that's a long way from any broad-based commitment to UK-outline and would be self-restricting to the post-privatisation era. Prior to that there was (freight stock aside) very little that appeared on both sides of the channel.

 

In any event, It might be more likely that Hornby would produce a Hungarian 86 on the back of making a BR one. 

 

 

I guarantee you that within five years we will see a Continental manufacturer getting involved in British TT. Cat's out of the bag, it'll not go back in.

 

And I *cannot* see Tillig not getting involved eventually. They did, after all, once bully a model railway giant (Roco) out of their first attempt at getting into the scale... Roco only got back into TT after Piko (established in H0) and Kuehn (a TT-only startup) successfully resisted Tillig's bullying. Based on history I can't see Tillig *not* having a go at Hornby sooner or later.

 

Of course most of yous in the UK or not involved in Continental TT won't be aware of all this history, but it's there.

[locomad2]

3 minutes ago, Dava said:

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see someone - not necessarily Hornby - provide an 0-6-0 chassis which (like the TT-3 Jinty) could match a range of bodyshell kits or 3d prints. Even the tender-drive option which Union Mills offer in N gauge could work here. The scale needs the wider aftermarket of kits & add-ons to become viable scale, and hopefully PECO will lead this. I'm surprised they have not announced a few more wagon kits, but they may do this if the market looks attractive.

 

Dava

 

 

That's what I like to see someone, even Hornby, that would produce a simple 0-6-0 chassis so it makes it easy for us to put different bodies on it, either strach built, kit, white metal, or 3D

 

I tried TT back in 70's, then 1:100, it's a brilliant scale had quite a simple layout, but easy to move about as a student early career life rented accommodation etc. I had to pack it up as simply too little TT stock about, none new , little and expensive 2nd hand, and a real shortage of a simple 0-6-0 chassis like this

 

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby's direct-sales only policy also means that retailers have no incentive to support TT:120 on any level when they are excluded from selling any of the big-ticket items. Hornby will (imho) only open the range up to them if they consider it unavoidable!

 

 

 

Is that why most of them have recently added a TT section to their websites where they didn't exist before?

 

Kernow, TMC, Hattons, etc. have all got them. Gaugemaster already had one. But it's got larger since the Hornby announcement.

 

Even Rails who are in dispute with Hornby have one!

 

Slap bang in the centre at the top of the screen for all to see.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/

 

I'm afraid if you are going to post things as fact, then do the research first as it makes you look a bit silly.

 

 

 

Jason

[britishcolumbian]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby's direct-sales only policy also means that retailers have no incentive to support TT:120 on any level when they are excluded from selling any of the big-ticket items.

Then they deserve to fold. They would be genuinely stupid, from a purely economic perspective, not to sell the products of other manufacturers just because they have some grudge against Hornby.

[Porfuera]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Heljan might come back, but I don't think they'll be in any hurry to do so. I'd expect them to wait until somebody else bites and see how Hornby reacts before having another go.

 

Again, several years down the road.

 

Always with the negative waves, Moriarty...

 

You just don't seem to be able to help yourself - those long winter nights must really drag in your household.

[andythenorth]

Happy new year, I see the same dead horses will be flogged in 2023 as 2023.

 

My fault for reading, I had started ignoring everything to do with TT:120 on rmweb as the signal-noise ratio was vastly underwhelming.

 

I should know better eh?

 

Might just go and start planning my TT:120 layout, and run some European TT:120 stuff. 🚋

Edited January 2, 2023 by andythenorth

[eldomtom2]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

If they are smart (and I think they fundamentally are beneath the hype)

Personally I am not so sure. I think if they were really smart, they'd be doing things like rethinking train sets. At the moment the only thing new about TT:120 is the scale, everything else is the same old Hornby business model.

[rekoboy]

9 hours ago, DCB said:

The real benefit to modellers is the availability of modern efficient chassis and motors for TT3.  I have used Triang TT3 chassis for 00 scale locos (using Romford axles and wheels)  and if I can source longer axles look forward to using the new TT 120 chassis for the same purpose.  I am guessing Hornby aimed for what remains of the Christmas train set market and got their timing wrong.  Could be some heavy discounting from folk who pre ordered.   It will be years before TT120 becomes a real choice for average enthusiasts, fine for the guy who wants to run Frying Scotsthing and three Pullmans round and round a 4 X 3ft layout, not so clever for someone who wants a detailed BLT.   So annoying that they didn't go for 3mm scale, the most used architectural scale with loads of scenery available, especially if they had used 14mm track.   I suppose they had their reasons, but hey so did British  Leyland when the produced the Allagro 

I mentioned just now in a post the success Hornby appears to be enjoying in Germany. If they had stuck with the British TT3 format of 1:100 or attempted the introduction of a fine-scale gauge unknown to most modellers they would have killed any export possibilities stone dead. 1:120 means an export market across the whole of Central Europe and to an extent the USA. Hornby needs a return on its investment and profits - that does not happen by appealing to a small coterie of inward or backward looking purists.

Edited January 1, 2023 by rekoboy

[F-UnitMad]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

As regards TT, I was initially quite keen, fancying giving it a try for a complete change from what I’ve been doing for the past decade, but.....

I'm in a similar position, i was intrigued by the possibility TT120 opens up of running EU stock with UK locos - replicating a real life operation that I used to see regularly some years ago near where I lived, where Continental ferry tankers were delivered to a big chemical works, by classes 25, 31 & 37.

Enthusiasm has lapsed for now because it is obvious that the BR locos are likely a few years away yet even if announced, and as far as I can tell, the Continental TT companies don't seem to make the ferry chemical tankers, which of course were to UK loading gauge.

But who knows, maybe one day..??

 

[eldomtom2]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

But that's a long way from any broad-based commitment to UK-outline and would be self-restricting to the post-privatisation era. Prior to that there was (freight stock aside) very little that appeared on both sides of the channel.

 

In any event, It might be more likely that Hornby would produce a Hungarian 86 on the back of making a BR one. 

 

I actually started a thread on this topic long before Hornby announced their big TT push - there's quite a lot of British loco classes that found their way abroad. And I wasn't including all the locos like Royal Scot that went off on promotional trips overseas, or preservation-era trips like Flying Scot...

[natterjack]

Regarding Heljan, all we actually saw from them was a rather attractive 3D rendition of their proposed launch loco.

 

If this had been developed to the point of reliable mechanisms (let us not forget their early gear issues in other scales), then Heljan have the basis to rapidly launch any of a wide range of prototypes across nationalities and the whole notion of being gazumped by Hornby will have been a handy smoke screen.

 

I suspect Rapido will be keeping a keen eye the emerging market, maybe an initial dabble with something iconic to test the North American scene ?

 

 

 

 

[DCB]

It all sounds horribly familiar, Hornby selling 0 and 00 together post WW2    Hornby selling 2 and 3 rail together in the late 50s, Triang with TT and 00.  Far too many items for retailers / importers to keep in stock, Modellers getting frustrated. 20 and 21 it was shortage of plain track crippling the hobby and sales.      Never mind I suspect Hornby will get a welcome sales blip from a couple of containers full of TT and every German will want a model of frying scotch egg and so if plan A works  maybe Hornby will drop their 00 range quietly or plan B ditto the TT 120 or likely scenario, go tit sup.  And to be honest as I watch my bog standard 00 Heljan locos pull trains effortlessly around the layout where their Hornby counterparts slip and slither It probably won't bother me very much,

[rekoboy]

On the other hand, Hornby's strategy, rather than a random short-term whim, might just be the result of some thorough market research, some careful observation of the home and European markets and a good deal of thought as to how to engage new converts to railway modelling. In my eyes a British company has done something innovative for a change, and I wish Hornby the best of success in this endeavour. But what strikes me as a member of both the UK and German railway fraternities is how many enthusiasts(?) cannot see the ointment or the soup for the vast number of annoying flies!