Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Pmorgancym]

10 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Not really.

Its an important distinction.

We are talking about suitable forms of power supply applied to the track, that the decoder can utilise to power its circuits and use as a source for providing motive power.

This is not the same as “DC control” or “operating with DC”.

It has been established that many DC controllers are not a suitable form of power supply for this application.

Some, possibly many, will be, albeit at the bottom end of the power requirement window.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Not really.

Its an important distinction.

We are talking about suitable forms of power supply applied to the track, that the decoder can utilise to power its circuits and use as a source for providing motive power.

This is not the same as “DC control” or “operating with DC”.

It has been established that many DC controllers are not a suitable form of power supply for this application.

Some, possibly many, will be, albeit at the bottom end of the power requirement window.

 

 

Yes, but the basic point is if Gaugemaster did testing they could effectively self 'certifiy' that their DC controllers in their range are 'suitable for use with hm7000'.  

Be interesting to see the what people are using to power their Hm7k decoders with.  I doubt many have splurged out on a Hornby wall wart transformer and associated cable.  So my guess would be most are split between powered from existing DC and DCC controllers, wonder what the split is.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Pmorgancym

[JSpencer]

3 hours ago, Kris said:

Which sound profile have you used on the T9?

 

For now, the 2P. 

I brought that T9 from the NRM in 2009 for £67. Actually it seems odd now doing a DCC sound conversion on a 14 year old model. But it don't look like it's 14 years old...

[Legend]

I think Tri mode just became Bi mode .  I wonder what the prevalence of blown up chips is? 

[Ron Ron Ron]

50 minutes ago, Legend said:

I think Tri mode just became Bi mode .  I wonder what the prevalence of blown up chips is? 

He’s not a happy bunny !

 

 

 

 

.

[Porfuera]

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Yes, but the basic point is if Gaugemaster did testing they could effectively self 'certifiy' that their DC controllers in their range are 'suitable for use with hm7000'.

 

I have no evidence but I doubt that Gaugemaster would even consider doing this. I don't know anything about their controllers but I imagine that there are different models and different variants within models, so there would be costs involved and even if they could test all those then they would still open themselves up to liability, especially if (as suggested earlier by @WIMorrison) they don't control the components that go into their analogue controllers.

 

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Be interesting to see the what people are using to power their Hm7k decoders with.

 

Pure DCC all the way for me - but then I already have a Z21. That said, even if I didn't have DCC I'd use (or buy, if necessary) a 15V power supply rather than risk using a DC controller that could possibly blow the chip because I wouldn't want to take that chance - even if I had a DC layout and I was just looking to try HM7000. But maybe that's just me and others may well have a different opinion.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Porfuera

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I did notice when I looked at the waveform from my Gaugemaster LT Rolling road that it appeared to be AC full wave rectified to DC and then a resistive divider driving the base of a darlington pair.

 

If so there is the potential for spikes from the mains side of the transformer to reach the controller output albeit reduced by ~ 19V/240V (the 'sinusoidal' 100hz part of the waveform was up to 19V) .

 

When I looked at the output from a 240v to 12V transformer there were a lot of spikes.

 

I'm not saying this is definitely the cause of HM7000 decoders failing with Gaugemaster controllers.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[Pmorgancym]

This is beginning to suggest the product needs to be withdrawn until further testing or at the very least the box art, instructions and matketting needs to be heavily revised.

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Given that the NMRA specifications for H0/S/0 scale decoders requires that the decoder will operate with a peak track voltage up to and including 27v, I really don’t see that the voltage spikes are going to be an issue, even for the worst of the old transformer driven DC controllers.

 

What will be an issue are controllers that don’t have sufficient power to drive what appears to be a very power hungry decoder.

[Pmorgancym]

4 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Given that the NMRA specifications for H0/S/0 scale decoders requires that the decoder will operate with a peak track voltage up to and including 27v, I really don’t see that the voltage spikes are going to be an issue, even for the worst of the old transformer driven DC controllers.

 

What will be an issue are controllers that don’t have sufficient power to drive what appears to be a very power hungry decoder.

Would that 'burn out' the chip?  We use the term burn out but I'm guess they just don't work, we don't know if they've actually burnt out.

 

And I'm tempted to say...when have Hornby paid attention to NMRA?

[WIMorrison]

The requirement for the decoder to operate up to an including 27v means that nothing ‘burns out’, all of the chips and components on the decoder must be capable of operating at that voltage.

 

Hornby recognise the NMRA organisation and meet the minimum requirements for the decoders and have the ID of 48 for CV8. They cannot use this ID if the decoders doesn’t meet the specification.

[Pmorgancym]

3 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

The requirement for the decoder to operate up to an including 27v means that nothing ‘burns out’, all of the chips and components on the decoder must be capable of operating at that voltage.

 

Hornby recognise the NMRA organisation and meet the minimum requirements for the decoders and have the ID of 48 for CV8. They cannot use this ID if the decoders doesn’t meet the specification.

Makes you wonder what the generally populace are doing, that wasn't done in the testing regime.  But I guess no plan lasts longer than first contact with the enemy!

[Ron Ron Ron]

57 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Given that the NMRA specifications for H0/S/0 scale decoders requires that the decoder will operate with a peak track voltage up to and including 27v ……….

That’s only part of the specification.

DCC track output must not be above 24v peak.

 

27v gives headroom above the maximum of 24v peak.

 

 

.

[WIMorrison]

15 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

That’s only part of the specification.

DCC track output must not be above 24v peak.

 

27v gives headroom above the maximum of 24v peak.

 

 

.

For H0/S/0 scale it is actually 22v that is defined as the voltage produced when powering the track and at the power station. The figure I  quoted is for the peak voltage for the decoder as specified in the NMRA Electrical Standards table ☺️

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by WIMorrison
Added table

[Ron Ron Ron]

51 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

For H0/S/0 scale it is actually 22v that is defined as the voltage produced when powering the track and at the power station…..

You are right Iain.

Too early in the morning blah blah…. 🙄

 

 

 

.

[JSpencer]

In the long term, there may be another thing.

 

The dead chip cannot be removed from the app because it wants to tell the dead chip that it is no longer connected.

 

Thinking it through, the chip, once linked to the app in your phone is permanently linked to that phone (maybe just your user account) until you tell the app to tell the chip that it is to be no longer connected.

 

So what happens when I change phones? My guess if I upgrade from apple to apple, it will recopy all the app data I have today and it will all work fine (to be checked through the PDF).

IF I load the app to another phone under my same Hornby User profile, will it collect all my chip names and allow me to continue? 

I hope so.

Obviously having the chip linked to my account makes sense from a security point of view. After all, if anyone with the HM7000 app can connect to it via bluetooth, well layout highjacking would be possible at a show!
 

But even then there is another problem.

IF I want to sell on the model, I know I have to disassociate the chip and then remove it or sell on with the instructions that it is TXS fitted.

But most people may not. So the chip becomes useless there on.

If I die, my family certainly won't have access to my app to dissociate the chips... 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

39 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

……..But even then there is another problem.

IF I want to sell on the model, I know I have to disassociate the chip and then remove it or sell on with the instructions that it is TXS fitted.

But most people may not. So the chip becomes useless there on.…..

 

 

The decoder is basically a normal DCC decoder, with the Bluetooth capability added on.

If your HM7000 fitted model is sold on, the new owner should be able to put in on their DCC powered layout and run it under DCC.

On the TXS versions, the sound profiles will remain as downloaded and installed previously, via the HM DCC app.

The new owner won’t be able to change them, without using the HM DCC app  (…….and possibly requiring an unlock code? )

A new owner can easily acquire the app.

Latest stats say that 87% of people in the UK use a smartphone.

 

Who would have thought, you could obtain a new DCC system and have it delivered and installed, in only a minute or two, at no cost !

 

 

.

[JSpencer]

22 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The decoder is basically a normal DCC decoder, with the Bluetooth capability added on.

If your HM7000 fitted model is sold on, the new owner should be able to put in on their DCC powered layout and run it under DCC.

On the TXS versions, the sound profiles will remain as downloaded and installed previously, via the HM DCC app.

The new owner won’t be able to change them, without using the HM DCC app  (…….and possibly requiring an unlock code? )

A new owner can easily acquire the app.

Latest stats say that 87% of people in the UK use a smartphone.

 

Who would have thought, you could obtain a new DCC system and have it delivered and installed, in only a minute or two, at no cost !

 

 

.

 

After seeing other videos by the same person below, I have doubts on that. 

When the chip lost power, it went back to bluetooth and you had to tell it again to run under DCC.

 

Equally, it did not accept the loco address and reverted back to 0003 (there might be more info in the 150 page PDF but that should be in the fold out. In anycase, I am expecting it to be the app that sets the DCC address with no faff of playing with CVs). Hopefully that is just another bug in his chip, because if DCC sees all TXS as 0003 then it's gonna be a problem under DCC control when 2 TXS locos are switched to DCC.

 

A new owner can acquire the app, but if the chip is still under my name (I have not disowned it in my app), I doubt they can connect to it (again it might be possible under DCC with a DCC controler that can edit CVs... hopefully in the PDF).

At this time, it is probably mostly modelers buying and using these chips - and its plain that a lot of testing was not done (only a few people highly specialised in DCC) with a certain number being burned out. The burn out rate can only increase once joe public use them.

 

The marketing was, you can run it from anything you like. The reality is, there is huge straight jacket to follow.

This was a brialliant move by Hornby but they should have left in DEV mode for another year to iron out all the niggles (there are a lot of them).

 

12 hours ago, Legend said:

I think Tri mode just became Bi mode .  I wonder what the prevalence of blown up chips is? 

 

 

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

When the chip lost power, it went back to bluetooth and you had to tell it again to run under DCC.

 

Equally, it did not accept the loco address and reverted back to 0003

 

I'm not really clear whether these chip problems are affecting people using HM7000 on pure DCC or whether this is only affecting people trying to run them on DC (be it total chip failures or just loss of settings). I have had no problems with mine on DCC - although I'm using the default settings because the Android app isn't available yet, but no problems with loco addressing.

 

And I'm pretty sure that Hornby's customer support line can provide an unlock code, although I'm not sure where I heard it - if not here then maybe on one of the videos.

 

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

At this time, it is probably mostly modelers buying and using these chips

 

I think you can find plenty of people on Facebook groups and other social media using them and asking questions about these chips.

[Jenny Emily]

I have four of the TXS decoders, and once I got my head around the way that the App works I’ve had no issues. 
 

my experiences of uploading new soundfiles was mostly all right, except one decoder which kept ending up with the App reporting no soundfile present. It did this over and over again, and what appeared to break this cycle for me was at the point the profile was uploaded and it was asking for the loco to be removed from the track to power cycle the decoder, I also closed the App then reopened it. Not saying this is a fix, but it appeared to work for me. 
 

Whilst I did test run a loco using a Gaugemaster model D controller without any issue, I would strongly advise anyone to adhere to Hornby’s current advice to not do so until further tests are undertaken - having a cavalier “I’ll do it until I am specifically notified not to” seems rather foolish. 

[Pteremy]

Does anyone happen to know the technical reason why the Power Bank cannot be used as a Stay Alive for other decoders? The Hornby website suggests that trying to do so will end up damaging the Power Bank.

[RAF96]

Take a black felt tip pen and redact the word controllers from your decoder box. Now read it again. That is the situation now. If you are still in doubt, pen in the word power instead.

One wag has suggested a total recall for the decoders until this is sorted 🤪 - good luck trying to organise that.

Power cycling the decoder after loading files or updating firmware is no different from restarting your PC after an update. No one gets excited about doing that.

[RAF96]

17 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

Does anyone happen to know the technical reason why the Power Bank cannot be used as a Stay Alive for other decoders? The Hornby website suggests that trying to do so will end up damaging the Power Bank.

Part of the charging circuit is in the power bank and part is in the decoder, for control as the device doesn’t charge until the vehicle is moving. You could try it with another decoder type and see if it goes bang or takes out the decoder and report back. The power bank comprises 3 x 1F 2.7v caps in series so you need to limit the charge voltage and current taking that into account.

[D3489gibson]

1 hour ago, Jenny Emily said:

I have four of the TXS decoders, and once I got my head around the way that the App works I’ve had no issues. 
 

my experiences of uploading new soundfiles was mostly all right, except one decoder which kept ending up with the App reporting no soundfile present. It did this over and over again, and what appeared to break this cycle for me was at the point the profile was uploaded and it was asking for the loco to be removed from the track to power cycle the decoder, I also closed the App then reopened it. Not saying this is a fix, but it appeared to work for me. 
 

Whilst I did test run a loco using a Gaugemaster model D controller without any issue, I would strongly advise anyone to adhere to Hornby’s current advice to not do so until further tests are undertaken - having a cavalier “I’ll do it until I am specifically notified not to” seems rather foolish. 

Jenny, I'm gonna have to give this method a try. I've been at it since Tuesday trying to get an 8pin and 21pin loaded up, and not had any luck. Touch wood this may sort it out!!

 

Nathan..

[Pmorgancym]

1 hour ago, Jenny Emily said:

I have four of the TXS decoders, and once I got my head around the way that the App works I’ve had no issues. 
 

my experiences of uploading new soundfiles was mostly all right, except one decoder which kept ending up with the App reporting no soundfile present. It did this over and over again, and what appeared to break this cycle for me was at the point the profile was uploaded and it was asking for the loco to be removed from the track to power cycle the decoder, I also closed the App then reopened it. Not saying this is a fix, but it appeared to work for me. 
 

Whilst I did test run a loco using a Gaugemaster model D controller without any issue, I would strongly advise anyone to adhere to Hornby’s current advice to not do so until further tests are undertaken - having a cavalier “I’ll do it until I am specifically notified not to” seems rather foolish. 

Trouble this current advice isn't offically anywhere.  It'll be huge climb down from what was a big selling point of the chips.

 

[Pmorgancym]

51 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Take a black felt tip pen and redact the word controllers from your decoder box. Now read it again. That is the situation now. If you are still in doubt, pen in the word power instead.

One wag has suggested a total recall for the decoders until this is sorted 🤪 - good luck trying to organise that.

Power cycling the decoder after loading files or updating firmware is no different from restarting your PC after an update. No one gets excited about doing that.

Would a recall be that hard?  Hornby has the email address of every user.  No different than when my Samsung Note got recalled.