Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[lapford34102]

12 hours ago, Denny said:

That’s not true. It does fit - you need to be careful and precise with your cable and chip placement/management. 

Well done!.  Any chance of a photo to show how you managed it?

 

On a different tack looking at my 8 pin one end of the chip seems to be there simply for some info on one side and a QR code on the other with no circuitry at all. Measuring the "chip" bit only it looks to be identical in size to a Loksound 5  8 pin.  Anyone elser looked at this aspect as if it's not essential then..........

Stu

[RedgateModels]

1 minute ago, lapford34102 said:

On a different tack looking at my 8 pin one end of the chip seems to be there simply for some info on one side and a QR code on the other with no circuitry at all. Measuring the "chip" bit only it looks to be identical in size to a Loksound 5  8 pin.  Anyone elser looked at this aspect as if it's not essential then..........

Stu

 

Already been mentioned, its the bluetooth antenna area 😉

[Bob83a]

As previously indicated,

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/hm7000-8txs-ble-decoder-8-pin-txs-sound-r7336?modal=-zoom

 

shows the aerial. If you remove that section then the Bluetooth will not work and you will not be able to load any sounds.

[Pmorgancym]

Well paid my money.  Put one onto a Bachmann 66, only thing I have that matches the released sounds.  I could have put it in a railroad 59 I guess, but the 66 has lights to play with (at a push probably a Bachmann 57).  And yeah I was impressed, fitting could have been easier if the blanking plate wasn't so tight it bent two pins coming off but some fiddling and fettling and the hm decoder clicked in. It probably needs a nice big bassey (is that a word)  speaker for it to be at its best, but the big enclosure cap fits the Bachmann enclosure.  The sounds are pretty good, performance is good.  Few niggles need sorting like day/night lights etc.  Oh and running with a gauge master combi turned up round my 6x4 test track.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Pmorgancym

[miles73128]

Todays Update, just squeezed 8 pin into Cl 71, Im about 1mm short getting body closed! So WIP, but the speaker fits nicely in the battery box underneath - (although you have to take the motor out to feed the speaker wire through the chassis), loaded 08 sounds just to test, but after a few mins went super quiet. So reloaded Cl73 and back to good volume level. The speaker box, whilst important, still sounds ok with the smallest box, which fits like a glove in the 71. Obvs, I'm waiting for the 71 sounds, hopefully later this year. 

Loaded Cl 66 into RR 66793, slight buzz from the sugar cube, changed it for a megabass one, wow, sounds really good and loud bass now. The sound file is very good! So might be worth checking your happy with the supplied speaker before full installation. It's defo WAY better than the TTS speaker, but can still be improved, there's a lot of detail in these new sounds files! 

Edited April 6, 2023 by miles73128

[Pmorgancym]

Following rhe discussions about sizes, do the 6pin hm7000 decoders actually fit any of the Hornby 6pin locos as they tend to be the smaller stuff like pecketts and sentinels?

Edited April 6, 2023 by Pmorgancym

[Pmorgancym]

22 hours ago, RAF96 said:

Latest Hornby advice (pending further lab trials with analogue controllers) is NOT to use any DC controller to power 7000-series decoders, but to by-pass it and use direct power to the track from the PSU or deploy DCC track power. This very recent advice a result of several blown decoders after using the ‘wrong’ type of DC at full whack.

Where is that advice published?  (I'm not saying it's not true, more concerned their communication of critical info seems a bit scattergun, after all they know my email as I have to register the device, but I've had no warning email)

[RAF96]

19 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Oh and running with a gauge master combi turned up round my 6x4 test track.

Please take note of my last previous post about use of controllers. I realise there are PWM and non-PWM controllers with/without feedback and some may well be suitable or not.

[RAF96]

4 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Where is that advice published?  (I'm not saying it's not true, more concerned their communication of critical info seems a bit scattergun, after all they know my email as I have to register the device, but I've had no warning email)

There is no link to published advice yet as the method of promulgation is under discussion, but your global email idea sounds like a probable avenue. I will pass the idea to the PM.

Edited April 7, 2023 by RAF96

[Pmorgancym]

4 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

There is no link to published advice yet as the method of promulgation is under discussion, but your global email idea sounds like a probable avenue. I will pass the idea to the PM.

So up until this extra info is officially published my warranty is still valid using a dc controller?

[Pmorgancym]

Does bring into question their testing, if they can't guarantee compatibility with probably the most popular controller brand, they might aswell start stating claiming their locos won't run through PECO points 

[JSpencer]

On 02/04/2023 at 23:02, JSpencer said:

Upsides:

• cheap
• can run on classic DCC or Bluetooth
• uses DC and DCC power supply
• Choice of loco classes to choose from, from app which can be changed
• plug in speaker and power pack

 

down sides:

• big chips
• limited to Hornby's sound files
• may have limits on non Hornby speakers
• may have limits on non Hornby power packs

 

 

 

Another downside.. 

Can take hours to set up.

 

Yesterday my second attempt with one of these chips was tried. 

(1st attempt was a 21 pin into a Dapol 73 that failed and eventually lost contact).

I fitted an 8 pin into a T9. 

Loaded the sound files (and all the polava of lifting the loco from the tracks etc).

Got an error message saying sound files were not loaded

Loaded the sound files again...

Got an error message saying sound files were not loaded

Loaded the sound files again...

Got an error message saying sound files were not loaded

Loaded the sound files again...

Got an error message saying sound files were not loaded

 

Really you waste entire evenings just trying to set these things up.

 

I will have another go over the weekend.

 

 

[Pmorgancym]

20 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Another downside.. 

Can take hours to set up.

 

Yesterday my second attempt with one of these chips was tried. 

(1st attempt was a 21 pin into a Dapol 73 that failed and eventually lost contact).

I fitted an 8 pin into a T9. 

Loaded the sound files (and all the polava of lifting the loco from the tracks etc).

Got an error message saying sound files were not loaded

Loaded the sound files again...

Got an error message saying sound files were not loaded

Loaded the sound files again...

Got an error message saying sound files were not loaded

Loaded the sound files again...

Got an error message saying sound files were not loaded

 

Really you waste entire evenings just trying to set these things up.

 

I will have another go over the weekend.

 

 

Odd I'm usually unlucky, if something has an inheritance fault I will suffer it, it took two attempts to load sounds onto my Bachmann 66 and touch wood no issues when I've played with it.

[Legend]

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Does bring into question their testing, if they can't guarantee compatibility with probably the most popular controller brand, they might aswell start stating claiming their locos won't run through PECO points 

 Agree 

 

I know they can’t test against all types of controller , but in UK Gaugemaster  and Hornby predominate . Tests using their mainstream controllers would have been useful especially when it specifically says operates on DC on front of packet (not that it operates on DC if you buy Hornbys PSU) 

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 …….especially when it specifically says operates on DC on front of packet (not that it operates on DC if you buy Hornbys PSU) 

It doesn’t say that.

It says “ functions with…….”.

Ambiguous with an unintentionally implied meaning perhaps?

Personally I think it’s an imprecise and woolly description, which aligns with much of the woolly and ambiguous messaging  we’ve had in all the Hornby HM DCC videos so far.

This is not operation on DC.

It’s DCC using wireless (in this case BlueTooth) for signal communication.

The required power supply is a nominal, constant 15v (minimum 1amp) provided by either a DCC or DC supply.

As a bonus, “some”, but not all DC controllers can be used to provide a minimum power supply.

 

 

.

 

.

 

[Pmorgancym]

14 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

It doesn’t say that.

It says “ functions with…….”.

Ambiguous with an unintentionally implied meaning perhaps?

Personally I think it’s an imprecise and woolly description, which aligns with much of the woolly and ambiguous messaging  we’ve had in all the Hornby HM DCC videos so far.

This is not operation on DC.

It’s DCC using wireless (in this case BlueTooth) for signal communication.

The required power supply is a nominal, constant 15v (minimum 1amp) provided by either a DCC or DC supply.

As a bonus, “some”, but not all DC controllers can be used to provide a minimum power supply.

 

 

.

 

.

 

I wonder if the wooliness is because they’re trying to straddle not admitting other manufacturers exist but being in a world where they do and all sorts of questions about compatibility are being raised.  ‘Will it work with x’. err we’ve not tested it, which is an increasing shame, if hm7000 were say a Gaugemaster product I think it would take on the world, but I wonder if it’s being hamstrung by Hornby’s I dunno parochialism?  Arrogance??  Is there a NMRA standard for Bluetooth?  

[Kris]

24 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

 Is there a NMRA standard for Bluetooth?  

The set of standards that need to be followed is this one. https://www.bluetooth.com/specifications/
These are far more important to follow than an NMRA standard. 

 

[WIMorrison]

54 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

I wonder if the wooliness is because they’re trying to straddle not admitting other manufacturers exist but being in a world where they do and all sorts of questions about compatibility are being raised.  ‘Will it work with x’. err we’ve not tested it, which is an increasing shame, if hm7000 were say a Gaugemaster product I think it would take on the world, but I wonder if it’s being hamstrung by Hornby’s I dunno parochialism?  Arrogance??  Is there a NMRA standard for Bluetooth?  

 

The 'woolliness' you refer to is standard wording for these situations because it provides protection for the advertiser if Brand A doesn't work with Brand B. Everyone uses it, not just Hornby. Hornby cannot warrant that it will work with Gaugemaster, or anyone else for that matter, because they do not own Gaugemaster (only Hornby), Gaugemaster do not manufacture what they sell under their name and have little control over what is inside the boxes, plus Gaugemaster only warrant their equipment to work with DC locomotives - and even that is woolly given that PWM isn't good with some locos.

 

 

[JSpencer]

Well, think I've cracked it!

What I found worked is that you load the sounds, then loco profile then reload the sounds again, and leave it at that!

(really, the Update buttons should be just one that performs ALL uploading and updates required and not 3 buttons. I mean only sound takes time to load, so tagging the rest on top is nothing.)

 

So now I have a T9 and Dapol class 73 (later circuit board type) HM7000 TXS sound fitted.

The 73 has the power pack added while the T9 is without. Both performed fine over point work.

 

For the T9, despite having a huge tender, I used the smallest sound box. Because anything else would be too tall and foul the tender pickup rack and chip holder. The T9 does not have any holes to allow sound to escape and the 8 pin chip plus wires are all in the tender as well. I fitted it so that the chip was forwards, the wires and 8 pin  plug in the middle, leaving the spacious tender rear for the smallest speaker. 

I was half expecting a muffled noise, but no she is really loud!

 

Another downside to having the app on the phone is that you cannot film from it at the same time as playing with the locos.

Equally, I cannot remove the first dead chip profile from the app. It wants to connect to it, in order to delete... but the chip is dead!

Quite a few areas not thought through. A little rushed IMHO.

 

First photo shows fitted speaker in tender top, next to class 71 speaker space. That will fit, but another post above mentions the chip is a mm too big. 

 

Edit: Power supply was from a Hornby eLink. Which I think is the same power plug as HM7000 (only with a different wire running to the rails).

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by JSpencer

[Kris]

55 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Well, think I've cracked it!

What I found worked is that you load the sounds, then loco profile then reload the sounds again, and leave it at that!

 

So now I have a T9 and Dapol class 73 (later circuit board type) HM7000 TXS sound fitted.

The 73 has the power pack added while the T9 is without. Both performed fine over point work.

 

For the T9, despite having a huge tender, I used the smallest sound box. Because anything else would be too tall and foul the tender pickup rack and chip holder. The T9 does not have any holes to allow sound to escape and the 8 pin chip plus wires are all in the tender as well. I fitted it so that the chip was forwards, the wires and 8 pin  plug in the middle, leaving the spacious tender rear for the smallest speaker. 

I was half expecting a muffled noise, but no she is really loud!

 

Another downside to having the app on the phone is that you cannot film from it at the same time as playing with the locos.

Equally, I cannot remove the first dead chip profile from the app. It wants to connect to it, in order to delete... but the chip is dead!

Quite a few areas not thought through. A little rushed IMHO.

 

First photo shows fitted speaker in tender top, next to class 71 speaker space. That will fit, but another post above mentions the chip is a mm too big. 

 

 

 

 

Which sound profile have you used on the T9?

[Legend]

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

The 'woolliness' you refer to is standard wording for these situations because it provides protection for the advertiser if Brand A doesn't work with Brand B. Everyone uses it, not just Hornby. Hornby cannot warrant that it will work with Gaugemaster, or anyone else for that matter, because they do not own Gaugemaster (only Hornby), Gaugemaster do not manufacture what they sell under their name and have little control over what is inside the boxes, plus Gaugemaster only warrant their equipment to work with DC locomotives - and even that is woolly given that PWM isn't good with some locos.

 

 

Actually  we are all focussed on Hornby , but it’s not a one way street .  Perhaps Gaugemaster should be testing HM DCC7000 sound chips on their controllers .  I’d imagine being able to operate a DCC decoder using one of their DC controllers would be a major selling point 

[Ron Ron Ron]

31 minutes ago, Legend said:

........... Perhaps Gaugemaster should be testing HM DCC7000 sound chips on their controllers .  I’d imagine being able to operate a DCC decoder using one of their DC controllers would be a major selling point 

 

You can't operate a DCC decoder with a DC controller.

If the DC controller puts out a suitable output, at full chat, or from an aux output, then it would simply be providing a power supply.

 

 

.

[Pmorgancym]

10 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

You can't operate a DCC decoder with a DC controller.

If the DC controller puts out a suitable output, at full chat, or from an aux output, then it would simply be providing a power supply.

 

 

.

That splitting hairs a bit, I think basic idea is sound

[Legend]

41 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

You can't operate a DCC decoder with a DC controller.

If the DC controller puts out a suitable output, at full chat, or from an aux output, then it would simply be providing a power supply.

 

 

.

Yes I did mean cranking it up to max and operating it through app 

[Ron Ron Ron]

54 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

That splitting hairs a bit, I think basic idea is sound

Not really.

Its an important distinction.

We are talking about suitable forms of power supply applied to the track, that the decoder can utilise to power its circuits and use as a source for providing motive power.

This is not the same as “DC control” or “operating with DC”.

It has been established that many DC controllers are not a suitable form of power supply for this application.

Some, possibly many, will be, albeit at the bottom end of the power requirement window.