Tail Lamps

[Jamie]

Please don't hate me, I've searched for an hour with and without Google and not found the threads I know are here or on the old site ('cos I've read them, some time in the past). The rest of the 'web doesn't help me either, so far as I can see.

 

Looking to determine the lamp positions on brake vans for the following situation:

Plain line, dual track, no loops or other complication

1960s practice, ScR

Both fitted and unfitted freights

I think there should be three:

Central, red showing to rear

Each side, red showing to rear, white to front

But with two side lamps showing red to the rear, the central one strikes me as superfluous - should it be there?

As I say, I'm only looking for "normal" plain line conditions, no goods loops, refuges, whatever. Just the open road.

 

My books always seem to picture trains from the sharp end where the big noisy contraption is located

 

Thanks,

jamie.

[Sam Moss]

Normal running for unfitted freights would be the normal central oil lit tail lamp with two side lamps showing red to the rear and white towards the locomotive.

[R A Watson]

THe lamps on the sides will be towards the middle of the van and were originally intended so the driver could look back and reassure himself that the guard (and van) were still following the train.

 

Wally

[Jamie]

Thank you both, my memory isn't as bad as feared. I guess even with vacuum brakes, the desire to confirm the tail end of the train hasn't been left by the wayside will remain.

[The Stationmaster]

Please don't hate me, I've searched for an hour with and without Google and not found the threads I know are here or on the old site ('cos I've read them, some time in the past). The rest of the 'web doesn't help me either, so far as I can see.

 

Looking to determine the lamp positions on brake vans for the following situation:

Plain line, dual track, no loops or other complication

1960s practice, ScR

Both fitted and unfitted freights

I think there should be three:

Central, red showing to rear

Each side, red showing to rear, white to front

But with two side lamps showing red to the rear, the central one strikes me as superfluous - should it be there?

As I say, I'm only looking for "normal" plain line conditions, no goods loops, refuges, whatever. Just the open road.

 

My books always seem to picture trains from the sharp end where the big noisy contraption is located

 

Thanks,

jamie.

 

The one in the middle is the tail lamp Jamie - as others have already pointed out the other two are the side lamps and they served two purposes at that time, viz most importantly to indicate to the loco crew that a train without a continuous automatic brake was complete and secondly on multiple etc tracks to indicate which line the train was on (or adjacent to), and that bit doesn't affect you - as you observed in your original question.

 

Fully fitted freights did not carry side lights at the date you are interested in.

 

Where the brakevan has suitable lamp irons all three lamps should be on the rearmost lampirons in order that Signalmen have the best possible view of the side lights as well as the tail lamp.

[Jamie]

The one in the middle is the tail lamp Jamie - as others have already pointed out the other two are the side lamps and they served two purposes at that time, viz most importantly to indicate to the loco crew that a train without a continuous automatic brake was complete and secondly on multiple etc tracks to indicate which line the train was on (or adjacent to), and that bit doesn't affect you - as you observed in your original question.

 

Fully fitted freights did not carry side lights at the date you are interested in.

 

Where the brakevan has suitable lamp irons all three lamps should be on the rearmost lampirons in order that Signalmen have the best possible view of the side lights as well as the tail lamp.

 

Marvellous Mike, I'll get the araldite out this evening and get 'em sorted

 

Thanks,

Jamie.

[Jamie]

Can I sneak in a quick follow-on question to my own thread? Yes, good:

 

- black-painted tail lamps, sufficient visibility for daytime use on rear of train or should I repaint the body of it white?

 

 

- - - - - - - - - -

 

 

... and to prove I'm actually using the info provided, not wasting your time:

Two examples from the stock box, one for fitted, one for unfitted goods.

[Guest stuartp]

Can I sneak in a quick follow-on question to my own thread? Yes, good:

 

- black-painted tail lamps, sufficient visibility for daytime use on rear of train ...?

 

I don't think so, I've never seen a black tail lamp as far as I can remember. (I'll turn up a dozen photos with them clearly visible now, you watch !). Black side lamps, on the other hand, were common.

 

... and to prove I'm actually using the info provided, not wasting your time:

Two examples from the stock box, one for fitted, one for unfitted goods.

 

Oh yes ! Properly dressed brake vans !

[Jamie]

Thought as much - nigh invisible on the model - but then, so are/were black bodied head lamps, so I thought I'd ask those wiser than me.

 

Thanks

[Guest stuartp]

Thought as much - nigh invisible on the model - but then, so are/were black bodied head lamps...

 

Yes, there's nothing quite like consistency is there ? (I'm going to be forever looking for black tail lamps from now on just to prove myself wrong !)

[The Stationmaster]

Black sidelamps quite de rigeur by the 1960s (I used to have one but got rid of it some years back and can state with the full authority of ownership that it was black, no doubt about it).

 

By that period too I would say a white body was the established norm for tail lamps - but they did get grubby of course.

 

But the vans look great - even with white sidelamps. (but the windows do look very clean, my memory says they used to be a lot grubbier than that)

[Jamie]

's OK, I'll paint my black lamp white, and those white ones black

 

Verandahs are awkward to access, so we'll have to presume the guards have a 'thing' for clean windaes in 1960s Galloway

 

Thanks again, much obliged - I'll learn yet.

Jamie.

[Oldddudders]

Marvellous Mike, I'll get the araldite out this evening and get 'em sorted

 

At the risk of going up a bit of an overgrown branchline here, your sensible use of araldite to hold the lamps does somewhat stymie you for using the van in the reverse direction. I have a number of 4mm passenger coaches which will need tail-lamps - but not all the time. I've bought some Springside lamps, and they look quite good, but does anyone have clever methods for securely attaching them - and especially for detaching them when portions are coupled in the platform? Should I be looking to develop a lamp-friendly pair of tweezers?

[Guest stuartp]

does anyone have clever methods for securely attaching them - and especially for detaching them when portions are coupled in the platform? Should I be looking to develop a lamp-friendly pair of tweezers?

 

Guy Williams did something terribly fiddly with sockets made from pressed shim but then he made his own lamps too. My slightly over-scale but pragmatic version uses cut-off staples for the lamp irons and whitemetal lamps with a sub-1mm hole drilled in the body, filled with blu-tac and positioned using tweezers. I find the handles snap off whitemetal lamps eventually, replacements from 10 thou guitar string (AJ coupling wire) can be hooked off with the 3-link uncoupling pole. Sidelamps can be left attached at the wrong end, it wasn't supposed to happen but it did.

 

It works for headlamps too.

[Jamie]

At the risk of going up a bit of an overgrown branchline here, your sensible use of araldite to hold the lamps does somewhat stymie you for using the van in the reverse direction. I have a number of 4mm passenger coaches which will need tail-lamps - but not all the time. I've bought some Springside lamps, and they look quite good, but does anyone have clever methods for securely attaching them - and especially for detaching them when portions are coupled in the platform? Should I be looking to develop a lamp-friendly pair of tweezers?

 

The autocoupler at the train-end of the brake van applies similar constraints to brake van use, so it's not an issue for me. On coaching stock which will not be swapped end-to end, I've been putting the lamp on the North side of the stock (layout is viewed from South) which means once coupled to another coach, or to the locomotive, the lamp is obscured by the corridor connection. Fly or what?

 

However, and of more use to you, my DMU will require the oil lamp to swap ends, and for this I've glued a short pin of 0.3mm handrail wire to the lamp, and a corresponding inconspicuous hole in the bodywork. Works OK, time will tell if it's too fidgety.

[JZ]

The search facility does work !

Just looking for this subject as I while away a few rest days with little jobs. I have gone with unfitted brakes with 3 and fitted with one. Not too worried having one end fixed as I always fit a scale coupling at one end anyway.

[brightspark]

Ditto with the last comment. I just looked this up as I got clobbered with a 'Do you know that your brake van has the wrong lamps showing'.

in 4mm the Springside number is DA6. These appear to be two lensed lanterns but in black!

 

This picture was nabbed from e-bay.

 

Are these correct for 1960? Southern Region?

[brossard]

As for fixing lamps, I drill a 0.020" hole in the base or the back depending on where they are going. Brake vans these days have convenient lamp irons. If going on these, your hole will have to be reamed until the lamp fits. I glue mine in, but I suppose blu tack will work. I usually find that the jewel pops out of the Springside lamp when I drill. Bachmann lamps are too big but easy to use.

 

Jamie:

 

A friend of a friend (who was a BR guard) wrote this for me:

 

"Partially or unfitted trains:

 

These have a brake van at the rear, and always have 3 lamps on the running line, regardless of the type. The tail lamp just shows red to the rear, as is obvious. The side lamps show white forwards at all times (on main lines) at both sides (and the driver would look out of these to help him see if the train was complete). The side lamps show red to the rear on main lines, but they were adjustable in that they had a removable red slide. When the train was in a loop, this would be removed to show white to the rear on the side nearest the running line. This indicated to the driver of any train on the main line that the freight train was inside the loop clear. My memory fails me a bit on the case when on the slow lines of a four-track line, but I think if the train was on a running line, 3 reds would continue to be shown; however other accounts don’t mention this.

Some accounts mentioning showing just 2 red lights in some circumstances, but this did not happen in my day.

Side lamps were always to be removed when going into sidings other than recess.

 

Tail lamps were always painted white; side lamps either black or white.

 

Fully fitted trains, including parcel trains where no passengers are carried:

 

Just one tail lamp shown.

 

The guard would always ride in the rear cab of the locomotive except for nuclear flasks, where the guard rode in a fitted brake (usually piped only) behind the train, with a barrier vehicle between the van and the flask vehicle. Another barrier would be present between the flask vehicle and the loco (these requirements no longer exist, I believe.) No brake vans or barrier vans are required nowadays.

 

Passenger and ECS:

 

In my day, all showed a separate oil tail lamp, even DMUs, except for HSTs with their own high intensity lamps. This requirement was removed for DMUs, which had their own built in rather dim red lamps.

 

The rule is quoted here:

 

7.4 Side Lamps

7.4.1 Guards of freight trains not fitted throughout with the automatic brake must ensure that in addition to the train tail lamp, two side lamps are carried on the rearmost brakevan. After sunset or during fog or falling snow they must show a white light forward , but the indication to the rear must be as follows:-

a). On main lines,fast lines and single lines- two red lights.

b ). On slow lines,relief lines or loops adjoining main or fast lines and running in the same direction- one red light on the side furthest away from the main or fast line and one white light on the side nearest the main or fast line.

c). On goods lines or loops adjoining slow or relief lines and running in the same direction – two red lights.

d). On reception sidings – the side lights must be removed or obscured when the train has passed into the sidings.

The above just refers to the sidelights and the aspect to be shown to the rear.. the main red tail light in the centre of the van would remain illuminated all the time of course…The reason for changing the aspects shown to the rear was to avoid confusing a following train or one passing a freight on a slow line or in a loop. The reason for showing white lights forward was to indicate to the loco crew on an unfitted train that the train was still intact and following."

 

I note your vans show that they are through piped (white standpipe) and are not themselves vacuum braked. My reading indicates that most BR built brakes were through piped. The few that were vac braked had red standpipes. I'm not clear on where the distinction between grey and bauxite vans lies. I suppose the grey ones, not even through piped, were restricted to unfitted trains or partially fitted trains. Through piped vans would have a much broader application.

 

John

[Mike J]

I don't do shunting, just watch the trains go by in set rakes.

Do the same rules as written above and illustrated in Jamies photo apply to the pre-war LNER?

Thanks,

Mike

[Jamie]

While interested in the continuation of this topic, and thanks to John for the further notes, a few clarifications are probably wise as to the dates of John's notes. For instance the dates of removal of guards' vans from fully-fitted trains, and use of oil lamps on DMUs both have been noted many times on RMWeb. For my period and subject, brake vans pretty much all the way.

 

I got clobbered with a 'Do you know that your brake van has the wrong lamps showing'.

Oh they love brake van etiquette at shows. I got pulled up at Ayr for doing something prototypical to the point of commonplace, but rarely modelled.

[brightspark]

Thanks Jamie,

I have the view that when we exhibit (especially if we are trying to produce a 'finescale' layout) we should get it right... or at least attempt to get it right..as we find that we have the duty to educate.

 

To all,

thanks for the input. My plan is to put the three lights onto the brake for the pick up goods. It isn't practical for an exhibition layout to remove lamps when in the sidings being shunted or in the layby. Unless anyone has further suggestions.

 

I also wonder as a further to the question by Mike J as to what happened in the grouping and pre-group companies. This would be the place to put the answers down.