Blacker Lane D.P.

[mac1960]

I think the thing with most depictions of Pits was that people forget how big they are. Just sticking a winding head in the corner of your layout just doesn’t do it. Drift mines are easier in that respect as infrastructure is smaller as can be seen at Calder Grove and indeed Skelmanthorpe but they still had quite extensive sidings. 
The model I am doing in N gauge loosely based on Horton in Ribblesdale only hints at the sidings as there were 4 miles of them back in the day.

[Dunalastair]

Manor Powis indeed had its fan of SG sidings, but they were a mile away at the site of the deep pit. The drift was linked by a NG tramway (with Ruston power), with a conveyor loading from the drift (and probably a NG supplies line down the drift alongside). The IRS handbook has an image of the NG manriders and there is one useful image on the web of the loader to base a diorama on, but there is little else - unless I can flush anything else out now. This render of work in progress shows my version of the caged ladder. 

 

Apologies again for the drift drift. I only wish that my drift yard had a chance of looking like Blacker Lane.

Edited January 18 by Dunalastair

[Ruston]

16 hours ago, Covkid said:

Maybe we need a new section for pIant and I can add photos of what I have collected. One item I really need to focus on is Hywel Thomas' creation of a Hymac 580 excavator on his South Wales based layout, but the Hymac 580 was a relative lightweight for coal sludging.  More for ditching, forestry and arable uses.    

Perhaps start a thread here in the Standard Gauge Industrial section? When the section was set up it was intended to encompass prototype and model but somewhere along the line the header picture and description that I made went AWOL.

 

It's the sort of thing that belongs in the section and it fits in with my own ideas on modelling industrial railways. A resource where people can find out about prototype plant and also about the models that are available to us would be very useful.

 

The way I see it is that you can have a model railway with industrial locomotives on it but that doesn't necessarily make it a model of an industrial railway. To model an industrial railway needs a different approach to a main line or branch line railway. The industrial railway is there for one reason and purpose and is only a part of what is often a much larger operation.  To build a layout as an industrial railway requires some understanding of the industry that you have chosen, what part the railway played and what buildings and other equipment is required to serve the various processes.

 

And also, would whatever it is be located in that geographical area at all? This applies especially to extractive industries; quarrying and mining.

 

And of course the more you get into it and the more accurately you want to pin it down to a geographical area and time period, the more you need to know.

 

This approach isn't for everyone and it seems that some people like to think that you can get away with anything with industrial railways - well, yes, you can because its your train set but if you think about it in the context of let's say someone wanting to model the Midland & Great Northern in 1909, you wouldn't tell them that it's fine to stick a GWR pannier at the front of the train or a Ford Capri parked out in front of the station, would you?

 

5 hours ago, mac1960 said:

I think the thing with most depictions of Pits was that people forget how big they are. Just sticking a winding head in the corner of your layout just doesn’t do it. Drift mines are easier in that respect as infrastructure is smaller as can be seen at Calder Grove and indeed Skelmanthorpe but they still had quite extensive sidings. 
The model I am doing in N gauge loosely based on Horton in Ribblesdale only hints at the sidings as there were 4 miles of them back in the day.

 

This is it. We all have a limited space in which to build a layout but it's having the understanding of how it should be if space, time and cash were unlimited that helps to make an industrial layout. Knowing what to put in and just as importantly what you can leave out works wonders.

 

When I started to build Royd Hall I quickly realised that I would never have the space to model an entire deep mine, so I changed to a drift, compressed the sidings massively and only modelled part of the washery and screens. With Blacker Lane I'm not modelling a mine at all and apart from having to compress everything and have a simplified track plan, I can still get in what was at the location of the prototype site on which it is based.

 

Before I leave this rambling post, and before I get jumped on by the Rule 1 brigade, I'd just like to say that the above is my modelling philosophy. I'm not telling anyone that's how they have to model. I'm saying that if you want to join me in it then you're most welcome. It's something I would like to encourage. If you don't like it, or don't want to join in then that's absolutely fine. Just don't bang on about it here. I've already been told by someone this week that because I'm not a member of a club and don't exhibit then I may as well not bother modelling at all ,so I don't need the aggro.

 

 

 

Edited January 18 by Ruston

[03060]

25 minutes ago, Ruston said:

 

We all have a limited space in which to build a layout but it's having the understanding of how it should be if space, time and cash were unlimited that helps to make an industrial layout. Knowing what to put in and just as importantly what you can leave out works wonders.

 

When I started to build Royd Hall I quickly realised that I would never have the space to model an entire deep mine, so I changed to a drift, compressed the sidings massively and only modelled part of the washery and screens. With Blacker Lane I'm not modelling a mine at all and apart from having to compress everything and have a simplified track plan, I can still get in what was at the location of the prototype site on which it is based.

 

 

Agree totally Dave, one resource relevant to this thread that I've just managed to acquire after several years of looking is an April 1991 copy of Scale Model Trains magazine which features a 5 page article by Paul Lunn ( @Dzine ) 'British coal open cast - basis for a good layout' and after a first glance can report that it contains some solid information, several good photos from around the Britiah Oak site and area, a site sketch / plan with all items identified via a numbered key and a couple of potential layout ideas / plans which manage to incorporate most of the features in a relatively small manageable area (the larger of the plans being only 8'x6'.)

 

All for 65p plus £4.80 postage from Railmags which came up in an a phone t'internet search whilst sat in the magazine room at Ingrow West VCT museum on Sunday afternoon having drawn a blank again .... ordered that evening, arrived Weds morning ... great service, great article.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[5050]

4 hours ago, Ruston said:

I've already been told by someone this week that because I'm not a member of a club and don't exhibit then I may as well not bother modelling at all ,so I don't need the aggro.

What a bl**dy stupid attitude.  I don't generally 'bite' at things like this but this one takes the proverbial!  There's a lot of club members who don't exhibit either so the statement doesn't hold water.  I take it the 'someone' is a club member and exhibits a large layout he has built entirely by himself?

[Ruston]

3 hours ago, 03060 said:

 

Agree totally Dave, one resource relevant to this thread that I've just managed to acquire after several years of looking is an April 1991 copy of Scale Model Trains magazine which features a 5 page article by Paul Lunn ( @Dzine ) 'British coal open cast - basis for a good layout' and after a first glance can report that it contains some solid information, several good photos from around the Britiah Oak site and area, a site sketch / plan with all items identified via a numbered key and a couple of potential layout ideas / plans which manage to incorporate most of the features in a relatively small manageable area (the larger of the plans being only 8'x6'.)

 

All for 65p plus £4.80 postage from Railmags which came up in an a phone t'internet search whilst sat in the magazine room at Ingrow West VCT museum on Sunday afternoon having drawn a blank again .... ordered that evening, arrived Weds morning ... great service, great article.

 

Regards,

Ian.

I wasn't aware of that at all. I wonder how many layouts were built off the back of it? t would seem that British Oak has been a layout idea for a few people but I only know of the one by @2mmMark. There is a layout with the name British Oak but it bears no resemblance to the real site in any way so I don't count that.

 

 

Progress on the D7.

It has been one of those builds that can't be put together at once and painted and weathered afterwards. The tracks are a bit wobbly looking, too, because they were stiff and straight castings that had to be heated with a hair dryer to get them to curve around the sprockets and idlers.

A lot of the really fine parts, such as control levers are never going to make it from the sprues in one piece and even if they did they wouldn't last two minutes. They will have to be replaced with pins or bits of wire.

 

The build is stalled anyway because the yoke that connects the arms together and fits into the back of the dozer blade was missing from the kit. I have sent an email to the supplier but have yet to receive an answer or the part.

 

6 minutes ago, 5050 said:

What a bl**dy stupid attitude.  I don't generally 'bite' at things like this but this one takes the proverbial!  There's a lot of club members who don't exhibit either so the statement doesn't hold water.  I take it the 'someone' is a club member and exhibits a large layout he has built entirely by himself?

It's out there if you want to waste your time looking for it. I'm not going into it here. It's really just a question of mind over matter. I don't mind because they don't matter.

 

[2mmMark]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

I wasn't aware of that at all. I wonder how many layouts were built off the back of it? t would seem that British Oak has been a layout idea for a few people but I only know of the one by @2mmMark. There is a layout with the name British Oak but it bears no resemblance to the real site in any way so I don't count that.

 

 

My model is inspired by a design that Paul Lunn did in a book on layout planning. His design was an adaptation of the real thing, as is mine but Paul did provide an accurate drawing of the steel drop-unloading staithe.  It was built to serve as a worked example for a 2mm Association publication "The Beginners Guide to 2mm Finescale Modelling".  It's reasonably accurate as far as the staithe and canal wharf go but the surrounding scenery I've modelled is nowhere near as bleak as the actual location was.  I think I had about 3 or 4 photos of the real thing and that was about all.

Since building the layout, a lot more photos have come to light, along with some video that was on Youtube for a while (since removed as it was probably from a DVD and in copyright).  I've not seen the Scale Model Trains article.  Paul sent me a scan of some of it and also of an NCB subsidence plan of the area. I've also obtained the two IRS Journals in which the layout was featured and two paperback books on the Calder & Hebble Navigation.

Another 2mm modeller, Richard Caunt, has built the British Oak staithe and the loading screens in 2FS. His model trumps mine in that the hopper wagons actually work.

Michael Andress described, drew and modelled the staithe in a late 1970s Railway Modeller.

Something I did find out was that British Oak was very busy during the 1985 miners strike.

[mac1960]

I had heard about the 2mm version but had not seen photos.

 

The other thing re size I would  respectfully point out when using large bits of road / off road kit is it’s not small, especially at open cast sizes. If you are squishing something in, it will looked squished, for example,  if you are putting a 40ft trailer in a yard where there is no turn around space or manoeuvring space.

I have built some distribution centres, and indeed airports at 1 to 1 scale, so I am aware of the scale of these things in reality. Even the cliched Cement or Oil distribution centre are large, look at the sizes of Liversidge back in the day (keeping it local) or Dewsbury Cement terminal currently. There are smaller terminals but they are very unique, like those that existed in the extremities  of the UK but not many left.

 

Cheers

Mac

[Covkid]

15 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

 

Just a shame that the job could not have been done without making quite such a clean sweep of the remaining industrial archaeology in the valley to improve the road. Hard now to believe that there was a rather harebrained scheme to connect the Corris and the Talyllyn by this route. Given that the line was I think constructed to horse rather than loco standards (and clearances) it would have required a rebuild of the existing railway as well as an unlikely gradient down to the lake - the suggested electric traction might well have been needed.

 

 

Regarding the linking up of the Corris and Talyllyn - it actually was more feasible than you think.  THe Upper Corris branch actually separated our property running between the back of the house and the "allotment" down by the river. The tramroad terminated probably a couple of hundred yards from us by a couple of old sheds.

 

There would have been a steady grade up beyond the village and the route would have turned left along a hanging valley, then ended up somewhere near to Bryn Eglwys.  The point though is some of the quarrying was at a higher level, maybe 100-150 feet higher than the tramoad in Upper corrris village. So as a means of taking slate across and down the Fathew valley to Tywyn, I don't think it would have been impossible.

 

I do agree that so much industrial heritage was lost when Braich Goch was flattened, and a pipe dream of running the Upper Corris branch from Maespoeth to the industrial heritage centre would have been really really nice. If only I could turn the clock back fifty years

[Covkid]

5 hours ago, Ruston said:

I wasn't aware of that at all. I wonder how many layouts were built off the back of it? t would seem that British Oak has been a layout idea for a few people but I only know of the one by @2mmMark. There is a layout with the name British Oak but it bears no resemblance to the real site in any way so I don't count that.

 

 

Progress on the D7.

It has been one of those builds that can't be put together at once and painted and weathered afterwards. The tracks are a bit wobbly looking, too, because they were stiff and straight castings that had to be heated with a hair dryer to get them to curve around the sprockets and idlers.

A lot of the really fine parts, such as control levers are never going to make it from the sprues in one piece and even if they did they wouldn't last two minutes. They will have to be replaced with pins or bits of wire.

 

The build is stalled anyway because the yoke that connects the arms together and fits into the back of the dozer blade was missing from the kit. I have sent an email to the supplier but have yet to receive an answer or the part.

 

It's out there if you want to waste your time looking for it. I'm not going into it here. It's really just a question of mind over matter. I don't mind because they don't matter.

 

 

Just checking Dave that your Cat D7 kit - is it the same as this one ?

 

I bought one of these from Orange Hobby a couple of years ago, and admit the purchase was a protracted affair from the Far East.  You thread has prompted me to dig it out trmorrow !!! 

 

Orange Hobby G72-213 1/72 U.S.Army Bulldozer D7 Complete Plastic Model kit

 

 

Edited January 18 by Covkid

[Ruston]

12 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Just checking Dave that your Cat D7 kit - is it the same as this one ?

 

I bought one of these from Orange Hobby a couple of years ago, and admit the purchase was a protracted affair from the Far East.  You thread has prompted me to dig it out trmorrow !!! 

 

Orange Hobby G72-213 1/72 U.S.Army Bulldozer D7 Complete Plastic Model kit

 

 

No. Mine is a resin cast, from Milicast. Or do you mean the same prototype? If so, it does look like it. Milicast also do one with a cable-operated dozer.

Edited January 19 by Ruston

[Ruston]

Trees.

 

I ordered some Heki trees from an online retailer. Two different sets of deciduous trees of 6-13cm, plus some 5cm Silver Birch. One set of trees look OK but the others really do look like lumps of painted bathroom sponge, so I haven't put them on. I've paid for the damned things, so I will use them, but they'll go behind the viaduct, where they're not so obvious.

Just these few have already made a massive difference in this area of the layout .I'll need another pack of the good ones, plus some large Woodland Scenics trees as all of these are a bit small. I know I could make some myself but I've tried before and it wasn't a success. I've also been adding details to the shed area that I've had lying around as left overs from previous layouts.

[mac1960]

Try Treemendous. They have done really good work on Horton, but not cheap, so chose statement trees. You can use the other stuff for bushes.

 

Cheers 

Mac

[Victor Vectis]

On 17/01/2024 at 22:43, mac1960 said:

 A lot of the coal was pretty low grade, but then there was Emley Moor which had very high grade coal which all went for export, mostly to Sweden, for very high grade steel production eg suspension legs on aircraft. Ironically that pit was the most traditional I ever visited, due to seams being very small and almost Dickensian in nature. Miners lay on their sides to literarily hack it out  including timber props it was really old school. The good thing with timber was there was a warning of failure where as rams just fail. The downside was in the pit showers, where you could see the issues with bruising which with the dust stained like a tattoo.

< seriously off topic, but.....>

 

What was the system at Emley Moor?

I was told that it was the last pit in Yorkshire that used the three shift, hand filling cycle.

All the faces I worked on were power loaders.

SAM

ex Hatfield NUM

[Ruston]

I went to take the whippets out this morning and also for a ride to the model shop. I found this in the second hand section.

It's already the right colour but needs the signage changing and a Wakefield reg. plate. Maybe not just that. These Oxford lorries always seem to ride too low. There's hardly any vertical clearance between the front wheels and the cab. It needs the suspension sorting.

 

And also, the tipper body is a bit small for carrying coal. Hoveringham would have been gravel, which is more dense. A coal body be taller and so be able to get in more in for the same weight. Looking at the lorries in the background of British Oak pictures, the tippers seem to be at least a foot taller than the roof of the cab.

 

So apart from the suspension, the signage, the tipper and some weathering, it's ready to go. 🙃

 

And perhaps those door mirror fixings are a bit chunky...

[mac1960]

Victor Vectis

You are correct as I said very Dickensian in late 1970,s . I was only down there once, and it was enough. Spent most of my time in Barnsley Main as I recall and some others around there. I was sponsored by Consolidated Goldfields so ended up in Joburg at 12000ft below ground which is a different ball game to coal mining 🙂.  There are no Drifts either and it’s a long way up and out 🙄

[Ruston]

Three of those figures are interviewees for the job of dozer driver. I reckon the bloke in the donkey jacket and Wakey Trinity hat is favourite.

[mac1960]

Ruston
I love the way you deconstruct the kit to make it right rather than just use what’s available ,and the observation on the Coal HGV height and reason is perfectly correct. I’m really enjoying the building of your model.

Edited January 20 by mac1960

[Ruston]

Another thing that I bought, yesterday, was a new cutting mat. The old one was literally falling apart.

I raised the height of the tipper body using 40 thou Plastikard and then covered it in a layer of 5 thou. to hide the join. A load of Evergreen strip ribs have been added and will be trimmed to length once all the MEK joints have hardened.

[Barclay]

On 20/01/2024 at 14:43, Ruston said:

I went to take the whippets out this morning and also for a ride to the model shop. I found this in the second hand section.

It's already the right colour but needs the signage changing and a Wakefield reg. plate. Maybe not just that. These Oxford lorries always seem to ride too low. There's hardly any vertical clearance between the front wheels and the cab. It needs the suspension sorting.

 

And also, the tipper body is a bit small for carrying coal. Hoveringham would have been gravel, which is more dense. A coal body be taller and so be able to get in more in for the same weight. Looking at the lorries in the background of British Oak pictures, the tippers seem to be at least a foot taller than the roof of the cab.

 

So apart from the suspension, the signage, the tipper and some weathering, it's ready to go. 🙃

 

And perhaps those door mirror fixings are a bit chunky...

Brings back memories of my old Matchbox King Size Hoveringham Foden 8 wheel tipper. Just bought some decals to refurbish it, by chance.

[Dunalastair]

Heading in the right direction (though actually turning left, which does look better). Do you 'flatten' the tyres? Even for an empty wagon, there does not seem to be much rubber in contact with the roadway.

 

 

[Ruston]

2 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

Do you 'flatten' the tyres? Even for an empty wagon, there does not seem to be much rubber in contact with the roadway.

I don't. I have thought about it before but I've never tried it. How well do those rubber tyres take being sanded? I presume that's how it would be done? How do you get them to bulge out at the sides, at the bottom, or is that not noticeable at all?

[Covkid]

On 19/01/2024 at 18:19, Ruston said:

 

Just these few have already made a massive difference in this area of the layout .I'll need another pack of the good ones, plus some large Woodland Scenics trees as all of these are a bit small. I know I could make some myself but I've tried before and it wasn't a success. I've also been adding details to the shed area that I've had lying around as left overs from previous layouts.

 

Dave - what is that piece of yellow plant behind the JCB in this view. Is it a box scraper ?

 

Thanks

[Ruston]

2 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Dave - what is that piece of yellow plant behind the JCB in this view. Is it a box scraper ?

 

Thanks

Raygo Roller. Bottom of page 9 and again on page 11. 👍

[cctransuk]

The young trees might well be authentic. If we suppose that a previously worked area had been reclaimed / landscaped, relatively small trees would be exactly what one would expect.

 

I am thinking of what was visible at the time from the A1(M) Doncaster bypass.

 

CJI.

Edited January 22 by cctransuk