Southern Region Concrete Signal Gantries

[ikcdab]

On another forum, someone gave me this link

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4361397,-0.0536799,3a,75y,139.04h,90.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spkY1qpYXKvDPVh3ROun7NA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-GB&authuser=0

Useful sideon view which shows the steps. I'll revamp my 3d view.

I'm still guessing at the width of the structure though.

 

 

[uax6]

I remember being on duty for a wiring degradation inspection here. The bloke was saying how poor the wiring looked, and then clambered behind the frame after I had pulled off (frame but with colour lights) and then started to pull the loom about very roughly. I was surprised that the signals didn't go back!

 

He said that the wiring insulation issue has become more of an issue on installations from the early 80's onwards, as BR suddenly wanted to know what the contractors were specifying for there wire. They then complained that it wasn't the spec that BR had wanted, so they all changed over to the BR wire, and that has been proven to not last very well....

 

Andy G

 

[ikcdab]

here is my slightly modified design

 

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Phatbob said:

I have no doubt all you say is true.  However, where I live we have had recent cuts in the frequency of service because the infrastructure can't cope reliably with 4TPH.  So we're stuck with "modest trafic levels" (3TPH) and consequent surpressed demand and overcrowded trains.  What we need is shorter headways allowing more trains to run.  Instead, we're stuck with an inflexible signalling system that Brunel and Stevenson would recognise. :-( 

I doubt Brunel would recognise it - some of his his ideas of signals were pretty weird even by the standards of his time.  and accordng to Vaughan - GWR Signalling - semaphore signals didn't appear on the GWR until 6 years after Brunel's death.

 

The type of signalling used on a railway doesn't, at reasonable levels of frequency necessarily restrict the number of trains per hour (tph).  Various parts of the Southern Railway could easily handle more than 4 tph with no problems as was the case in various other parts of Britain.   The headway achevabe wth semaphore signalling depend entirely on the length of block sections and the braking distances needed so there is a practical limit (which theoretically is the same as that available with 3 aspect colour light signalling).

 

Back to the SR  concrete bracket structures. (yes, they are not gantries - which have two legs carrying the horizontal part on which the signals themselves are mounted.  Don't forget that at the time the concrete bracket structures were appearing the SR was still re- using former LBSCR ohle gantries for new colour light signal gantries.

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, Fishoutofwater said:

Ah, thought you meant the gantry in the foreground. Looking in the magnifier I see what you mean.

There could still be tracks between the two 'adjacent' gantries - but at a marginally lower level so the rails aren't visible from our viewpoint. ( Must admit I'm struggling to suss out WHERE in the Bricklayers Arms area this is - there's no sign of higher-level main lines, so are we closer to North Kent East Junction ? )

[Michael Hodgson]

Maybe all this is covered in articles metnined in earlier posts, but I assume the heads would be standard products from Westinghouse or a similar manufacturer.  Looking at the photos, I see they are mounted fairly centrally on the bracket, and access to the wiring/bulbs is via the door at the back, which looks a bit awkward for if you're standing on the bracket.  Perhaps they were installed with signal heads already in place?  It had never really occurred to me that it could matter which side a signal head pivots its door on but if the door swings into your face it would be difficult to change bulbs.  So were doors on these heads reversible or perhaps available in both left and right hand pivots, depending on which side of the line the bracket is cantilevered over? 

 

Also the wiring to these heads is not visible, so it must be buried in piping in the centre of the concrete, emerging somewhere near the base - possibly below ground level.   The mounting position would need to be secured to the bracket, so presumably a steel plate with studs was cast  in the appropriate position - and as some of the brackets carry more than one head, were they bespoke rather than a standard casting?

 

 

[ikcdab]

32 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Maybe all this is covered in articles metnined in earlier posts, but I assume the heads would be standard products from Westinghouse or a similar manufacturer.  Looking at the photos, I see they are mounted fairly centrally on the bracket, and access to the wiring/bulbs is via the door at the back, which looks a bit awkward for if you're standing on the bracket.  Perhaps they were installed with signal heads already in place?  It had never really occurred to me that it could matter which side a signal head pivots its door on but if the door swings into your face it would be difficult to change bulbs.  So were doors on these heads reversible or perhaps available in both left and right hand pivots, depending on which side of the line the bracket is cantilevered over? 

 

Also the wiring to these heads is not visible, so it must be buried in piping in the centre of the concrete, emerging somewhere near the base - possibly below ground level.   The mounting position would need to be secured to the bracket, so presumably a steel plate with studs was cast  in the appropriate position - and as some of the brackets carry more than one head, were they bespoke rather than a standard casting?

 

 

I think you're right on all counts.  I have some berko heads that I will use.  I need to add some wiring channels into the 3d file as you suggest.  I'm using fusion 360 for the designs. Then I might also add sockets for the handrails Just to make that easier.

Ian

[Michael Hodgson]

48 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I think you're right on all counts.  I have some berko heads that I will use.  I need to add some wiring channels into the 3d file as you suggest.  I'm using fusion 360 for the designs. Then I might also add sockets for the handrails Just to make that easier.

Ian

Yes, I wondered about the handrails.  I assume they will be soldered wire, perhaps needing a benond jig of some sort.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Also the wiring to these heads is not visible

The wiring on one of the ones posted by Ncosistent is clearly visible trailing along the structure:

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

The wiring on one of the ones posted by Ncosistent is clearly visible trailing along the structure:

Doesn't look to be a very professional way of doing it ! - replacement perhaps ?

 

There appears to be the rusted remnants of something on this side in line with the signal head ; two upright pointy things - base of an earlier handrail ???

[melmerby]

47 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Doesn't look to be a very professional way of doing it ! - replacement perhaps ?

 

There appears to be the rusted remnants of something on this side in line with the signal head ; two upright pointy things - base of an earlier handrail ???

Do you mean the sticky up things?

If so I thought they were something to do with the clamping to the gantry for the signal head.

[ikcdab]

a very kind person on another forum has kindly supplied these:

 

[melmerby]

Another from East Croydon:

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Do you mean the sticky up things? ... If so I thought they were something to do with the clamping to the gantry for the signal head.

'Upright pointy things' or 'sticky up things' ..... yep, whichever prexact technical description we choose to use, those are they - whatever they are ( need a closer shot ).

[uax6]

Having played around a bit with early colour light heads the doors open out at least 180*, and generally more. I'm sure my MetroVick -GRS 'Hernia'** head has a door that goes much further than 180*. I friend has a couple of early heads with 'pig's ears' on them, and again I'm sure they open further than 180*, so access to change the LAMPs (Remember bulbs grow, lamps glow), wouldn't be that difficult. And I'm guessing that the width of the platform is probably wider than it looks.

 

Andy G

 

** so called as it weights so bleeding much, its cast iron!

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

(Remember bulbs grow, lamps glow),

I don't think these would benefit much from soil and water:😄

https://www.johnlewis.com/lava-lamp-25w-r39-reflector-non-dimmable-replacement-bulbs-set-of-2/p5465723

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

** so called as it weights so bleeding much, its cast iron!

I know the early ones are exteremely heavy, which is why I was wondering about their installation.  I just can't see a bloke struggling up a ladder and out along the top carrying one, so perhaps the head was pre-fitted, whether in the factory or after delivery to the site. 

 

I had initially thought these were prewar when most S&T work was done using a lot of manpower and fairly basic tools   But as they are BR I suppose it would be late enough that a rail-mounted crane would have been more readily available to S&T for this sort of work, and that they would need a crane to plant the concrete bracket anyway,  Otherwise I think the signal head would have to have been hoisted up using a block and tackle.

 

Melmerby's enlargement above shows that that signal head was clamped on - it looks like a pair of steel strips below the concrete and presumably a rectangular steel plate above, with probably four additional bolts to secure the head casting to top plate.  The clamp would merely keep the assembly secure on the post, but the position of the head woud need to be capable of being adjusted more precisely to focus the lamps at the drivers line of sight - sometimes using a "gunsight" in the rear door. 

 

This one's cable seems  to be fitted a little crudely to the handrail and I don't know when cable ties came in, but surely they would not have been available originally.  So it certainly looks as though I was mistaken about the wiring running inside the concrete - unless the fairly late photo we're looking at shows a more recent replacement head that had to be done that way because of incompatible securing/cabling arrangements.  Having said that, I think a model would still be better with the wiring inside.  The enlargement shows that the handrail uprights are cranked outwards slightly before turning vertical. giving more width at waist level than the footway;  they look fiddly to construct.. 

[DY444]

On 11/02/2023 at 16:05, melmerby said:

In find this image interesting.

It seems to be during resignalling with a few colour lights in a sea of semaphores both UQ & LQ. The nearest Gantry is not lit.

What I can't fathom is the LQ gantry on the left which seems to be still in use but there is a colour light gantry in front of itand the RH head appears to be illuminated.

What's going on?

 

The caption says Bricklayer's Arms.

 

On 11/02/2023 at 22:12, Fishoutofwater said:

That gantry is on another line. 

 

On 12/02/2023 at 00:06, melmerby said:

How so?

I see three tracks on the left with a signal gantry to the left of them controlling 2 tracks in one direction with a concrete gantry also to the left in front of it also controlling the same two tracks.

 

I'm guessing the photo is south-east of London Bridge station at the point where the tracks start to spread out.

 

On 12/02/2023 at 01:12, Fishoutofwater said:

Ah, thought you meant the gantry in the foreground. Looking in the magnifier I see what you mean.

 

On 12/02/2023 at 10:52, Wickham Green too said:

There could still be tracks between the two 'adjacent' gantries - but at a marginally lower level so the rails aren't visible from our viewpoint. ( Must admit I'm struggling to suss out WHERE in the Bricklayers Arms area this is - there's no sign of higher-level main lines, so are we closer to North Kent East Junction ? )

 

I recognise the picture.  It is from the 1950s resignalling from Pouparts/Bricklayers Arms to Coulsdon and I think was taken at or around the time of the commissioning (which in those days was done in hours) hence the confusing mix of lit/unlit colour lights and semaphores.

 

The picture is looking south towards Bricklayers Arms Jn with the box in the distance and New Cross Gate (out of sight) beyond.  The Brighton lines to/from London Bridge split into two at Bricklayers Arms Jn, one leg of this is on the left and the photographer is standing on the other.  The line the photographer is on is now the Sussex reversible, the three on the left are now (r - l) the Up Sussex Fast and Dn Sussex Fast (which give access via the new flyover/dive-unders to LB P4/5 and are used by Thameslink) and the Dn Sussex Slow.  The two lines to the right of the photographer are now (l-r) the Bermondsey Reversible and the Up Bermondsey Spur.  These two join the Dn and Up lines respectively from Peckham Rye at South Bermondsey.  The lines to the extreme right went into Bricklayers Arms and are long gone. 

 

If you took a picture from the exact same spot today then Millwall football ground would be on your right.

 

Edit:  Roughly the middle of this:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4867501,-0.0494717,268m/data=!3m1!1e3

Edited February 28 by DY444

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi.

 

Just found this thread.

 

I gave up looking for a drawing of one of these about 5 years ago.

 

My interest has been rekindled lately.

 

Has anything come to light yet on these please?

 

Dave.

[ikcdab]

37 minutes ago, dasatcopthorne said:

Hi.

 

Just found this thread.

 

I gave up looking for a drawing of one of these about 5 years ago.

 

My interest has been rekindled lately.

 

Has anything come to light yet on these please?

 

Dave.

Hi there, i think that if you have read the thread then yopu probably know all there is to know. I also have some pictures that were kindly supplied by someone local. If you want access to these, please contact me by pm and i can let you see them.

[Southernman46]

On 11/02/2023 at 17:20, Phatbob said:

Around here we still have signalling from the 1870s and 1880s!  At least the Brighton line has colour light signals and not waving metal arms on sticks lit by oil lamps and moved by cables and human muscle.  Be grateful for small mercies...

It took this to happen to get the BARS in the mix .................

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Hassocks1978.pdf

[dasatcopthorne]

Mmm.

 

I'll have to try another approach.

 

May go and measure the thickness of that signal near Sydenham. 

 

Dave.

 

[dasatcopthorne]

On 12/02/2023 at 10:24, ikcdab said:

here is my slightly modified design

 

 

Your drawing is missing the horizontal 'landing' at the top of the ladder.

 

I count only 5 steps between the 'lower landing' and the top horizontal surface.

 

Dave.

[dasatcopthorne]

Guys.

 

Today I have been to Anerley and found the up Starter? still in place.

Better still, the Down Starter? is still there and reachable from a position of safety.

 

Here's what I have obtained. Sorry about my drawing skills. It's a long time since I was at school.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dasatcopthorne]