Southern Region Concrete Signal Gantries

[ikcdab]

I need some signal gantries for my layout and I quite like the look of the southern region concrete gantries that were erected on the Brighton line in the 1950s.

There used to be quite a good website covering these with pictures of the gantry at Anerley, but this website seems to have disappeared and whilst the wayback machine can find it, the images are missing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210123043732/https://hydeparknow.uk/2020/12/05/seventy-years-of-main-line-signalling-in-london-2/

 

All I can now find is a very poor picture here: https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/CompletionOfBrightonLineC-LSignalling.pdf

 

On the website there was a drawing of the front elevation of the gantry from which I have derived the design below, but there are no details on the drawing of steps which i know were cast into the bracket, nor do i know the correct thickness.

 

Does anyone know where I can find more details of these gantries so that I can create a 4mm scale version?

Thanks

Ian

 

 

[Phatbob]

I've been researching these beasts myself for a future project.  I'll post here the images I've found on the interweb, but please be aware that NONE of them are my copyright.  THey all belong to whoever posted them online in the first place!
HTH

[ikcdab]

2 hours ago, Phatbob said:

I've been researching these beasts myself for a future project.  I'll post here the images I've found on the interweb, but please be aware that NONE of them are my copyright.  THey all belong to whoever posted them online in the first place!
HTH

Hi there those are great pictures.  The second one looks quite recent... Do any of these still exist?

[Phatbob]

5 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Hi there those are great pictures.  The second one looks quite recent... Do any of these still exist?

There's a few left between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction.  HTH

 

[bécasse]

10 hours ago, Phatbob said:

There's a few left between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction.  HTH

 

Not bad for "slim" reinforced concrete structures seventy years after they were first erected. Note that their use was confined to new Southern Region colour-light schemes in the early 1950s, ie the London area of the Central Division.

[Michael Hodgson]

G Pryer's "Pictorial Record of Southern Signals" for some reaason doesn't seem to include them, though it has info on pre-grouping signals, lattice post, straight concrete post and rail built signals

 

I would think they were considered part of the "Art Deco" architectural style of the period - perhaps you might have more luck looking at architectural/art deco sources?

.

[Oldddudders]

Somewhere in the Forest Hill area, more than 50 years ago, I recall some unspeakable idiot had hung a heavy object from one of these, at cab height, no doubt hoping to kill an unsuspecting driver in the dark. It was seen and removed before that happened. 

[Nconsistent]

A couple of snaps from the Brighton line. Apologies for the quality!

[Wickham Green too]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

... I would think they were considered part of the "Art Deco" architectural style of the period - ...

Rather surprisingly, a quick look through 'Southern Nouveau' didn't find them ............... though that book doesn't have a decent index which MIGHT have helped !!?!

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Rather surprisingly, a quick look through 'Southern Nouveau' didn't find them ............... though that book doesn't have a decent index which MIGHT have helped !!?!

I made the same search, but it eventually dawned upon me that these structures are BR(S).

[RFS]

13 hours ago, Phatbob said:

There's a few left between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction.  HTH

 

 

You can see some of these in this cab ride from London Bridge to Brighton.  First up is one at around 6m50s. Seems many others have been replaced with identical steel ones.

[bécasse]

17 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I made the same search, but it eventually dawned upon me that these structures are BR(S).

As are perhaps the majority of structures covered in the book (and there are a few whose only connection with the Southern is that their drawings ended up in the Waterloo plan arch in Railtrack days). Sadly, the authors of the aforesaid tome seem to have been ignorant of the interesting history of the development of structural concrete on the Southern Railway and the Southern Region, and notably that the vast majority of items were completely redesigned in the years immediately following WWII (I suspect to reduce the amount of steel reinforcement incorporated - but that is a reasoned guess, although the initial redesigns definitely predate nationalisation).

 

As for the signal gantries themselves, I am reasonably certain that I have seen drawings somewhere recently (there were two differing lengths of horizontal section, for example) and some excellent detail photographs including some showing the rather clever cast-in steps, but I can't for the moment remember exactly where.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

... these structures are BR(S).

... but they don't seem to be included in the British Railways Civil Engineering Information Sheets either !

[phil-b259]

20 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Hi there those are great pictures.  The second one looks quite recent... Do any of these still exist?

 

They very much do still exist - and have technically been re-used twice with 3 different generations of heads!

 

First re-use was in the late 1970s when the 1950s built boxes were abolished and the line signalled using remote relay rooms and the standard BR heads (as opposed to the SR based designs) to the new London bridge box ('L' prefixed signal nos).

 

The second and more recently when control moved south to Three Bridges ROC which also coincided with a change to LED heads (though much of the 1970s remote relay rooms was retained)

 

No reason to believe they won't still be there supporting signal for many years to come

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

... No reason to believe they won't still be there supporting signals for many years to come

Er ........ so long as we still have signals as we know them ! 

[melmerby]

On 10/02/2023 at 15:06, Phatbob said:

I've been researching these beasts myself for a future project.
HTH

 

 

 

 

In find this image interesting.

It seems to be during resignalling with a few colour lights in a sea of semaphores both UQ & LQ. The nearest Gantry is not lit.

What I can't fathom is the LQ gantry on the left which seems to be still in use but there is a colour light gantry in front of itand the RH head appears to be illuminated.

What's going on?

 

The caption says Bricklayer's Arms.

Edited February 11, 2023 by melmerby

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Er ........ so long as we still have signals as we know them ! 

 

True - but with the area having seen significant renewal of the signalling equipment as part of the Thameslink upgrade its going to be a long time before it will become a candidate for ECTS as what money there is needs to be spent on upgrading other areas still using 1970s & 80s signalling first!

[Phatbob]

46 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

True - but with the area having seen significant renewal of the signalling equipment as part of the Thameslink upgrade its going to be a long time before it will become a candidate for ECTS as what money there is needs to be spent on upgrading other areas still using 1970s & 80s signalling first!

Around here we still have signalling from the 1870s and 1880s!  At least the Brighton line has colour light signals and not waving metal arms on sticks lit by oil lamps and moved by cables and human muscle.  Be grateful for small mercies...

[phil-b259]

48 minutes ago, Phatbob said:

Around here we still have signalling from the 1870s and 1880s!  At least the Brighton line has colour light signals and not waving metal arms on sticks lit by oil lamps and moved by cables and human muscle.  Be grateful for small mercies...

 

Valid point - but there is something of a paradox in that metal rodding and wires are in fact a lot more resistant to wear and tear than electrical cables. Rats and mice don't chew said Victorian rods and signal wires to bits nor do they suffer from failing insulation which can give rise to dangerous situations!

 

To give an example my understanding is that although Leicester was only resignaled in the mid - late 1980s, the electrical wiring used (or mare particularly the insulation on it) did not stand the test of time well and huge quantiles have had to be renewed to make sure the railway stays safe!

 

(Conversely there are other places where the wiring might be older but it has actually faired better - and its not just about the railway environment either! The quality of the insulation to some extent depending on the manufacturing process - and like MAZAK rot in models if the wrong stuff or wrong quantities gets into the plastic used to insulate the wires it can have a much shorter life before it crumbles / splits apart)

 

So if you have a pot of money and are faced with replacing a 100 year old installation which still works and is safe or something that is only 20 years old but is rapidly becoming unsafe where do you think the money is going to be spent!

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Phatbob said:

Around here we still have signalling from the 1870s and 1880s!  At least the Brighton line has colour light signals and not waving metal arms on sticks lit by oil lamps and moved by cables and human muscle.  Be grateful for small mercies...

Yeah but that was in the days when things were built to last. 

 

Structural concrete doesn't have a perect safety record and I've seen plenty of simple concrete posts which have suffered fairly minor physical damage but that lets water in and the steelwork rusts.  I would not be surprised if the cost of inspecting these things regularly to determine their continued strength is potentially an issue which could in itself warrant a decision to replace. 

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

To give an example my understanding is that although Leicester was only resignaled in the mid - late 1980s, the electrical wiring used (or mare particularly the insulation on it) did not stand the test of time well and huge quantiles have had to be renewed to make sure the railway stays safe!

SNIP

So if you have a pot of money and are faced with replacing a 100 year old installation which still works and is safe or something that is only 20 years old but is rapidly becoming unsafe where do you think the money is going to be spent!

Wasn't Leicester MAS ML Engineering's big breakthrough of the Westinghouse/GEC duopoly? ML's TI21 jointless track-circuit rescued GEC when their in-house track circuits proved unstable on VARS. 

 

ISTR the LT&S resignalling I was involved with in the early '90s was largely driven by sudden deterioration of the insulation such that techs were forbidden to touch it. Back in the 80s, the SR RS&TE published a bombastic paper in which he extolled the virtues of IECCs and similar tech, which he fondly imagined would soon be universal. He was wrong. ABS and semaphore signalling can, with competent maintenance, continue to give good, safe service until the Earth goes bang. Where it fulfills the needs of railways with modest traffic levels, let it continue. 

[Phatbob]

16 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

ABS and semaphore signalling can, with competent maintenance, continue to give good, safe service until the Earth goes bang. Where it fulfills the needs of railways with modest traffic levels, let it continue. 

I have no doubt all you say is true.  However, where I live we have had recent cuts in the frequency of service because the infrastructure can't cope reliably with 4TPH.  So we're stuck with "modest trafic levels" (3TPH) and consequent surpressed demand and overcrowded trains.  What we need is shorter headways allowing more trains to run.  Instead, we're stuck with an inflexible signalling system that Brunel and Stevenson would recognise. :-( 

[Fishoutofwater]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

LQ gantry on the left which seems to be still in use

That gantry is on another line. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Fishoutofwater said:

That gantry is on another line. 

How so?

I see three tracks on the left with a signal gantry to the left of them controlling 2 tracks in one direction with a concrete gantry also to the left in front of it also controlling the same two tracks.

 

I'm guessing the photo is south-east of London Bridge station at the point where the tracks start to spread out.

Edited February 12, 2023 by melmerby

[Fishoutofwater]

57 minutes ago, melmerby said:

How so?

Ah, thought you meant the gantry in the foreground. Looking in the magnifier I see what you mean.