Mark 3 Catering Vehicle Photos

[franciswilliamwebb]

 

Mk3 TRFB 40709 at Newport on 15/07/02, part of a HST set (my photo)

[Wickham Green too]

How it all started : - 

 

Shildon, 31/8/75

 

... or in fifty shades of grey : Leeds. 5/7/13

[Oldddudders]

Did I not see a brand new MkIII catering vehicle sitting in a siding somewhere near Litchurch Lane in early 1974? 

[Wickham Green too]

On 19/02/2023 at 11:34, Oldddudders said:

Did I not see a brand new MkIII catering vehicle sitting in a siding somewhere near Litchurch Lane in early 1974? 

There were a couple of not so new ones at Derby St.Mary's 28/10/80 : - 

 

 

.... and a couple of different blue ones at Norwich 25/9/04 : -

 

[franciswilliamwebb]

 

 

Mk3A RFM 10225 at Stafford on 11/08/03 (my photos)

[jbqfc]

RFM 10229 seen at Reading

 

10271 GFW  ex RFM seen at London Marylebone

 

TRSB 40424  at Doncaster

 

MK 3 TRFB  40705 at Doncaster station 

 

[keefer]

The loco-hauled Mk3 RFMs are interesting as the corridor-side buffet windows vary depending on which vehicle they were rebuilt from.

They can be small, clear ones (ex-RUB/RFB), small opaque ones (ex-TRUK) or full-size (ex-FO).

On 19/02/2023 at 11:34, Oldddudders said:

Did I not see a brand new MkIII catering vehicle sitting in a siding somewhere near Litchurch Lane in early 1974? 

When did production start for the HSTs? If in undercoat or b/g then must be production HST (cl.253/4) as the Prototype (cl.252) already existed as in the photos posted above and the l/h RUBs didn't appear until 1979.

EDIT: actually it may have been the Prototype TRSB/TRUK as these were delayed and a Mk1 RKB used meantime. I don't know when they were ready for service though.

Edited February 25, 2023 by keefer

[keefer]

Had time for a quick look and as far as i can tell, Prototype trailers were built in 1972 and Production trailers from 1975.

[BernardTPM]

The two catering cars were built last and were the only ones to have the silver frames. The First and Second trailers had the edges of the window opening joggled so the frame sat flush, with stopping to smooth the frame into the sides. I examined one that was at the Midland Railway Centre back in, I think, the 1980s or very early '90s.

[keefer]

Of the two (actually of them all), I think the TRSB was the last -  probably completed sometime in 1973. (Haven't managed to find any definite dates yet)

[keefer]

Here's a pic i remembered - date is only 'c.1974' but shows the power cars are still cl.41 and the TRSB is in the train but so is the Mk1 RKB!

I think early formations were pretty fluid, especially for crew-training runs.

I suppose the RKB was ready-to-use whereas the Mk3s maybe took time to be fitted out and trained for.

41001 Edinburgh Waverley by Ian Addison Collection, on Flickr

41001 Edinburgh Waverley by Ian Addison Collection, on Flickr

Edited February 25, 2023 by keefer

[Wickham Green too]

16 hours ago, keefer said:

... I suppose the RKB was ready-to-use ... 

What bogies was it on - for, presumably, 125mph ? 

[jbqfc]

a few more from me 

TRFB  40743 seen at Reading

 

MK 3 TRFB  40750 at Darlington  

 

TRB 40900  at Doncaster station  

 

TRFB 40755  at Reading 

 

John

[keefer]

38 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

What bogies was it on - for, presumably, 125mph ? 

It was mounted on BT5 bogies (like the rest of the trailers), which i think was the prototype version of the BT10 (although traintesting.com says BT10)

Note also the added control jumper socket on the coach end.

By Peter Fox from http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm

Edited February 26, 2023 by keefer

[Commoner]

On 25/02/2023 at 19:25, keefer said:

Here's a pic i remembered - date is only 'c.1974' but shows the power cars are still cl.41 and the TRSB is in the train but so is the Mk1 RKB!

I think early formations were pretty fluid, especially for crew-training runs.

I suppose the RKB was ready-to-use whereas the Mk3s maybe took time to be fitted out and trained for.

41001 Edinburgh Waverley by Ian Addison Collection, on Flickr

41001 Edinburgh Waverley by Ian Addison Collection, on Flickr

 

I have access to the prototype's performance reports produced by RTC and latterly by the WR's CMEE's dept.  The prototype MKIII HST catering vehicles were married up to the set for the first time W/C 6/7/73.  They only stayed in the set for a short period of time, before being loaned to the LMR in October 1973.  After a period of testing and crew training, from mid-November 1973 they were used in revenue earning service for evaluation purposes.  There is no record of them returning to the prototype HST set, prior to the entire set entering Works for a prolonged overhaul in June 1974.  RKB 1524 is recorded in the set up until June 1974 and there is no record of it thereafter.  10000 and 10100 became 40000, and 40500 and moved with the prototype set to the WR in December 1974.  

 

Construction of HST catering vehicles  began in late 1975/early 1976.  However, the first TRSB, 40001 wasn't outshopped until mid-late April 1976.  Construction of TRUK vehicles was slower than anticipated and 40501 didn't emerge from Works until August 1976, and was delivered to the WR at the beginning of September 1976.  To cover the short fall in TRUKs at the start of the WR's HST service in October 1976 a number of sets were temporarily formed with 2 TRSBs.  

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Here's the two prototype catering cars stored in St Mary's Yard, Derby, after the prototype HST set (252001) was disbanded.

 

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, Commoner said:

The prototype MKIII HST catering vehicles were married up to the set for the first time W/C 6/7/73.  They only stayed in the set for a short period of time, before being loaned to the LMR in October 1973.  After a period of testing and crew training, from mid-November 1973 they were used in revenue earning service for evaluation purposes.  There is no record of them returning to the prototype HST set, prior to the entire set entering Works for a prolonged overhaul in June 1974.

Thank you for confirming a memory from long ago wasn't fake, having seen one in a WCML train somewhere near Willesden around 1973 or '74. Obviously it stuck out in a blue/grey set (and wasn't a Pullman).

[Peter Kazmierczak]

When under construction at Derby, they usually first appeared in a lime green undercoat...

 

[keefer]

11 hours ago, Commoner said:

 

I have access to the prototype's performance reports produced by RTC and latterly by the WR's CMEE's dept.  The prototype MKIII HST catering vehicles were married up to the set for the first time W/C 6/7/73.  They only stayed in the set for a short period of time, before being loaned to the LMR in October 1973.  After a period of testing and crew training, from mid-November 1973 they were used in revenue earning service for evaluation purposes.  There is no record of them returning to the prototype HST set, prior to the entire set entering Works for a prolonged overhaul in June 1974.  RKB 1524 is recorded in the set up until June 1974 and there is no record of it thereafter.  10000 and 10100 became 40000, and 40500 and moved with the prototype set to the WR in December 1974.  

 

Construction of HST catering vehicles  began in late 1975/early 1976.  However, the first TRSB, 40001 wasn't outshopped until mid-late April 1976.  Construction of TRUK vehicles was slower than anticipated and 40501 didn't emerge from Works until August 1976, and was delivered to the WR at the beginning of September 1976.  To cover the short fall in TRUKs at the start of the WR's HST service in October 1976 a number of sets were temporarily formed with 2 TRSBs.  

That's amazing info so thanks very much for posting!

I only knew that they were delayed, hence the RKB, but had no idea they were used in normal trains meantime (which wasn't a problem as, apart from the control jumper, they were built as loco-hauled stock.)

Do you happen to know if they were converted to HST spec (i.e. 415V 3-phase ETH) during the 1974 overhaul or did that come later?

I know there were various changes in the production sets with delayed vehicles. Also the decision to cancel any more TRUKs, IIRC the WR giving them up to the ER and receiving new TRUBs instead (some sets retained a TRSB only).

 

As an aside, did anyone know if a good book on the HST that covers all of this?

 

Thanks again for the info.

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

22 hours ago, keefer said:

It was mounted on BT5 bogies (like the rest of the trailers), which i think was the prototype version of the BT10 (although traintesting.com says BT10)

Note also the added control jumper socket on the coach end.

By Peter Fox from http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm

 

Though on the website this image comes from it states that the location is the sidings at the RTC, this is actually Derby Etches Park carriage sidings.

[Oldddudders]

12 hours ago, Commoner said:

10000 and 10100 became 40000, and 40500 and moved with the prototype set to the WR in December 1974.    

40000 was undoubtedly the vehicle I saw at Derby in 1974. I knew it had a memorable number - just not what! In those days I was more used to 69000, the buffet car in 4-BEP 7001, on the Mid-Sussex fasts.

[Commoner]

8 hours ago, keefer said:

That's amazing info so thanks very much for posting!

I only knew that they were delayed, hence the RKB, but had no idea they were used in normal trains meantime (which wasn't a problem as, apart from the control jumper, they were built as loco-hauled stock.)

Do you happen to know if they were converted to HST spec (i.e. 415V 3-phase ETH) during the 1974 overhaul or did that come later?

I know there were various changes in the production sets with delayed vehicles. Also the decision to cancel any more TRUKs, IIRC the WR giving them up to the ER and receiving new TRUBs instead (some sets retained a TRSB only).

 

As an aside, did anyone know if a good book on the HST that covers all of this?

 

Thanks again for the info.

 

 

The overhaul of the prototype HST set took place over an extended period - June to November 1974.  As well as offering the opportunity to thoroughly examine the performance of various components, it allowed various modifications to be carried out, and the incorporation of some features planned for the production sets.  The conversion to a multiple unit with the installation of 415V 3-phase supply.  It was on completion of the overhaul that the set was re-classified Class 252 and the power cars and stock renumbered in the 4xxxx series.

 

As far as books go, I have always thought that "HSTs at Work" by Roger Ford and Brian Perren from 1987 is the best read.  The 125 Group produced their Haynes Manual of the HST in 2018 or 2019 which is also very good from a technical point of view.  I believe there is still a detailed story to tell of the prototype and the early years of HST operation and one day I hope to have a stab at writing it.  Trying to cram the the full HST history into one volume I suspect is unrealistic.  Fair play to anyone who wants to give it a go and do it justice.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

1 hour ago, Commoner said:

 

 I believe there is still a detailed story to tell of the prototype and the early years of HST operation and one day I hope to have a stab at writing it.  Trying to cram the the full HST history into one volume I suspect is unrealistic.  

 

You'd be the one to do it!

[Commoner]

1 hour ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

 

You'd be the one to do it!

Thanks Peter.  I'd like to give it a try.  It's all about time I'm afraid.  Hopefully, I will get it done before 50th anniversary of the introduction of production sets to passenger service!

[franciswilliamwebb]

 

Mk3 TRFB 40722 at Newport on 15/07/02 (my photo)