Pacers in Scotland (or lack thereof)

[Stopping-Train Britain]

I wonder whether anybody can please enlighten me as to why Pacers were - sadly(!) - never employed in revenue-earning services in Scotland (save only for a few trial runs in the 1980s and irregular Carlisle-Dumfries forays, as described elsewhere in the forms). 

 

I appreciate they would have been ill-suited to longer-distance rural services (where Sprinters replaced loco-hauled trains), and I dare say many of the shorter commuter routes in the Central Belt which might otherwise have been 'Pacerised' are electrified. 

 

Was that the reason; that is to say, there simply weren't a sufficient number of appropriate routes for Pacers in Scotland? 

 

Please forgive my ignorance; this is simply something I've always wondered!

[darrel]

As you say they were used on occasional Carlisle Dumfries runs. They were also used on Edinburgh to Bathgate runs for a couple of weeks when the line opened. The class 140 was used on a few demonstration runs. 

There seems to have been little in the way to prevent them from being used. The class 141s were modified at Kilmarnock and ran under their own power. There were one or two class 141s that made it to Inverness depot for work to be done. (Much to my surprise when I saw one in the shed there in the early 90s.) And some of the class 142s had work done on them at Glasgow works where they ran under their own power.

But Scotrail never got an allocation of them and use on passenger services beyond those mentioned above never happened. The reason behind this was ScotRail management didn't want them due to the pacers being such bad trains,  it's as simple as that. There were some routes around Glasgow which may have been suitable but strathclyde PTE which heavily subsidised trains in the area didn't want the pacers either. 

You have to remember when the pacers were built they were built on the cheap. So much so they had to be modified soon after with new braking system. New doors. New engines. New gearboxes. It would be interesting to know if it would have been cheaper to have built a class 150 instead, by the time you take that lot into consideration. It may well have been that ScotRail realised that it would be about the same cost to buy a class 150 which would also have better riding and better seats. 

Don't get me wrong while the pacers once modified were still rough riding, they were known to drivers as bouncy castles and nodding donkeys. They were actually very reliable in my experience, I didn't have a single failure when driving one. 

[Wickham Green too]

Most of the Scottish branches that had experienced four-wheeled railcars in the late fifties gave up the ghost long before Pacers were ( re-)invented.

[Northmoor]

My Dad has photos of Pacers at Waverley in Easter 1986 when they were used on the newly-opened Bathgate service.  My own very poor efforts using a 110 format camera include only one of a Pacer; here's a pair of 143s coming into Haymarket:

 

[turbos]

The main issue in Scotland with Pacers was discovered during their brief trial period on the newly opened Edinburgh - Bathgate route. One night during this trial they took a Pacer round the Fife Circle and it failed to keep time. If BR wanted ScotRail to use Pacers it would need to recast the ECML timetable, a lot easier to standardise ScotRail on Sprinters which could manage the Fife Circle timings.

 

Brian.

[Ken.W]

14 hours ago, darrel said:

You have to remember when the pacers were built they were built on the cheap. So much so they had to be modified soon after, fitted with a braking system. New doors. New engines. New gearboxes. It would be interesting to know if it would have been cheaper to have built a class 150 instead, by the time you take that lot into consideration. It may well have been that ScotRail realised that it would be about the same cost to buy a class 150 which would also have better riding and better seats. 

Don't get me wrong while the pacers once modified were still rough riding, they were known to drivers as bouncy castles and nodding donkeys. They were actually very reliable in my experience, I didn't have a single failure when driving one. 

 

Corrected that bit for you 😉

 

I always called them the only trains with brakes an optional extra, you didn't trust them from one stop to the next, would stop fine at one station, and sail happily straight through the next.

 

In 40 years l only twice failed a train due to deficient brakes - both 143s

[darrel]

Yeah the original brakes were some sort of cable brake and the cable stretched and the brakes became shall we say soft.

[45125]

13 minutes ago, darrel said:

Yeah the original brakes were some sort of cable brake and the cable stretched and the brakes became shall we say soft.

Not only did they stretch, but also had very nasty habit of seizing up. There was a pile of them that were well fooked out side a NL the pile of which used to grow daily, until they got shipped off for repair. Then pile would start again. HT and NH no doubt had similar piles.

 

With all the mods that were done on the pacer fleet from new drive trains, braking systems, new doors etc it would have been cheaper to build a Sprinter type vehicle. 

 

[GordonC]

13 hours ago, turbos said:

The main issue in Scotland with Pacers was discovered during their brief trial period on the newly opened Edinburgh - Bathgate route. One night during this trial they took a Pacer round the Fife Circle and it failed to keep time. If BR wanted ScotRail to use Pacers it would need to recast the ECML timetable, a lot easier to standardise ScotRail on Sprinters which could manage the Fife Circle timings.

 

Brian.

 

what made the Pacers slower than the Sprinters? they had a lower power output (800hp - 900hp per unit compared to 1144hp) by the looks of it, but did weigh much less too (around 40t compared to 70t). Did the single axles limit how much power they could put down?

[Wickham Green too]

..... and why should any inability to keep time be specific to the Fife Circle ?

[Ken.W]

Well, l never had anything to do with either those routes or the 150s, but for a start I'd expect you'd allow a lot more stopping time with a Pacer - just to make sure that you actually did so!

[Alex TM]

19 hours ago, turbos said:

to use Pacers it would need to recast the ECML timetable

Hi,

 

Only a part of the Fife Circle direclty impacts on that line, and there is a lot more to the former Scottish Region than Fife and the ECML.  I missed out on the trial runs on my local line (Springburn to Cumbernauld), but friends who did travel said they were like a bus but less comfortable!  That was on a line that was around thirteen miles long, formed of contiinuous welded rail, and had no intermediate stops; i.e. the unit had the best opportunity to run on smooth rail without a stop/start journey.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Wheatley]

Those that worked through to Dumfries will have been RRNE (et seq) units,  it was an RRNE Carlisle depot job, at least some of the time. 

[turbos]

15 minutes ago, Alex TM said:

 

Only a part of the Fife Circle direclty impacts on that line, and there is a lot more to the former Scottish Region than Fife and the ECML.  

The problems for Pacers on the Fife Circle start shortly after departing north from Inverkeithing with a speed restriction then an uphill gradient in either direction. The Fife Circle continues like this throughout with sharp bends and Station stops or speed restrictions exactly where you don’t want them. Burntisland was particularly difficult for the Pacer. My source for this information worked at Haymarket Depot at this time.

 

Brian.

[Welly]

Imagine riding a Pacer along the line from Inverness to Wick or from Glasgow to Mallaig! The big windows would have been the only good thing about them.

[Alex TM]

1 hour ago, turbos said:

a speed restriction then an uphill gradient in either direction

Hmmn ... so another part of the design flaw was a lack of hiking boots.

 

Your comment would also make sense of a few other lines in the west where they were tried out; not so much tight curves but never ending climbs.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Alex TM
Correcting spelling.

[5BarVT]

On 06/03/2023 at 22:48, Stopping-Train Britain said:

I wonder whether anybody can please enlighten me as to why Pacers were - sadly(!) - never employed in revenue-earning services in Scotland (save only for a few trial runs in the 1980s and irregular Carlisle-Dumfries forays, as described elsewhere in the forms). 

 

I appreciate they would have been ill-suited to longer-distance rural services (where Sprinters replaced loco-hauled trains), and I dare say many of the shorter commuter routes in the Central Belt which might otherwise have been 'Pacerised' are electrified. 

 

Was that the reason; that is to say, there simply weren't a sufficient number of appropriate routes for Pacers in Scotland? 

 

Please forgive my ignorance; this is simply something I've always wondered!

In my time at BR ScR the Sectional Appendix prohibited them with the exception of Gretna to Kilmarnock (for access to Barclays) and (I think) Kilmarnock to Barrasie for test runs.

Because Pacers were long wheelbase 4 wheeled vehicles there were additional requirements on track circuit bonding that could not be guaranteed to be achieved at Glasgow Central or Waverley West End.  Our operational colleagues were very happy that we couldn’t confirm their safe operation as it allowed them to keep them ‘elsewhere’.  They didn’t ask too much and we didn’t go looking for an answer and it suited us both!

Paul.

[adb968008]

On 08/03/2023 at 18:39, Welly said:

Imagine riding a Pacer along the line from Inverness to Wick or from Glasgow to Mallaig! The big windows would have been the only good thing about them.

Ive seen both a 141 and a 142 at Lochgorm works Inverness.

 

They were both sent south after repairs, but they were tested before leaving, I think on the Aberdeen line.

Edited March 12, 2023 by adb968008

[Stopping-Train Britain]

Many thanks indeed, everybody, for taking the time to share your insights. Your answers are greatly appreciated!