Thoughts on a new approach to rewheeling Triang motor bogies

[Captain Slough]

A few weeks ago there was a discussion here on Triang EMU/DMU/Blue Pullman motor bogies and code 100 points, and the issues with finding units that have the right wheel profile. There were related discussions about Dock Shunters and AL1s having noisy wheels, although of course all AL1s are code-100-friendly at least

 

Now, it's common knowledge that the Triang motor bogie is hard to rewheel, because back in the day the standard approach was to use a now-discontinued Markits coach wheel that had a 9/64ths axle which was the same size as Triang used, and either machine on the knurling to retain the gear or force fit the gear and glue it into place.  No modern manufacturer makes coach wheels with a 9/64ths axle - but those of us willing to accept the 6 to 9 months production delay can still order sets from Scalespeed, or go on eBay and find one of the last-run Triang DMUs with the headcode box or Blue/Grey Blue pullmans and use the code-100-compatible non-knurled wheels from that.

 

However.  

 

Romford still sell 9/64ths axles for rewheeling Triang steam engines. They have the same knurling as all Triang gears need and standard Romford axle ends. See this sales page for where they may still be bought

 

Why can't we just use a Romford 14mm/15mm steam loco driving wheel on a Romford 9/64ths steam engine axle in a Triang motor bogie? is it possible that nobody's ever thought to try this?  Obviously we'd need to replace or rework the pickups as well so as only to bear on the rims (possibly on both sides unless uninsulated romford drivers are still available) but I can't see any obvious reason why this wouldn't both work AND be cheaper & more available than the alternative solutions.  

 

Anybody ever tried this?  I presume using a bicycle chain tool and a vice it would be possible to remove and reuse the gear wheel from the original triang axle so the cost should be low.

[Il Grifone]

It's an interesting idea, but the first problem I can see is that fitting larger wheels will raise the already excessive buffer height, even if there is sufficient clearance which I doubt.

Romford wheels and axles always were expensive and today you need a mortgage!

There are two types of gear. The brass type can be persuaded to come off their axles, but the plastic type are all one piece with the axle. I have reamed out Dublo rolling stock wheels to fit these in the past, The zinc alloy type have a better profile and are easier to work than the later sintered iron version (if you can call abrupt right angles a profile!) Alternatively bushes are available to reduce the bore diameter to 2mm for standard rolling stock wheels and axles,

[Captain Slough]

It was my possibly faulty memory that AL1s had 15mm drivers and DMUs had 14mm anyway?  The scalespeed DMU replacement wheels are 14mm. Romford drivers are available down to 12mm size anyway

 

Also, the 9/64th axles are priced at £2.28, meaning including 4 wheels at £4.55 each that would be £22.76 per bogie - less than the Scalespeed wheelsets and less than the normal cost (about £25-30) of a late model DMU motor car plus delivery from eBay & also finer scale.

 

The point that the later model gears werent removable is well made and one I had not accounted for.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Captain Slough

[melmerby]

Can't you just put bushes in to take the measurement down to 1/8"?

That way you can use any standard 1/8" axle wheels you like.

 

I did that with a Jinty chassis, which uses the original motor & gear.

[uax6]

Look at the coach wheels that Hornby and Bachman do. I found that a Triang EM2 with plastic axles was easy to convert. Basically just remove the insulating bush and with a little bit of reaming, they push fit onto the axle. They also fit Dublo axles too.

 

Not tried the triang steel axles mind, but I'm sure a solution isn't far off using these wheel pans.

 

Andy G

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I get the feeling reading the above I'm underthinking this, but I've got a dock shunter on the go in the roundtuit pile and was going to drill through the existing axle 2mm and use any wheel.

 

Mike.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

You can buy reprofiled wheels for these chassis already. They have been done by the man who originally did the Johns Amazing Trains videos on Youtube. He sells them through Ebay. He sells under the name of chambs123.

Edited March 11, 2023 by cypherman

[john new]

31 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

You can buy reprofiled wheels for these chassis already. They have been done by the man who originally did the Johns Amazing Trains videos on Youtube. He sells them through Ebay. He sells under the name of chambs123.

Sadly not currently. Just followed your advice but due to family bereavement not currently selling - see https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132622340710 

Edited March 11, 2023 by john new

[uax6]

And having seen some in the vid, it appears that the knurling isn't always fully removed.... That's why I went down the road of using modern wheel pans, which are also finer all round.

 

Andy G

[locomad2]

I've a EMU, and a blue triang Pullman both with Knurled wheels and have no problem in the last 50 years running them over peco 100 track, points etc.

 

Prehaps years ago pulled them out a little, so back to back slightly bigger, or older peco points had wider frogs, or even over the years worn a bit.

 

Knurled wheels make a cracking noise, they sound reassuring "rough" plus they tend to clean the track as they skid though dead  (insolfrog) frog.

[DCB]

On 11/03/2023 at 08:23, Captain Slough said:

A few weeks ago there was a discussion here on Triang EMU/DMU/Blue Pullman motor bogies and code 100 points, and the issues with finding units that have the right wheel profile. There were related discussions about Dock Shunters and AL1s having noisy wheels, although of course all AL1s are code-100-friendly at least

 

Why can't we just use a Romford 14mm/15mm steam loco driving wheel on a Romford 9/64ths steam engine axle in a Triang motor bogie? is it possible that nobody's ever thought to try this?  Obviously we'd need to replace or rework the pickups as well so as only to bear on the rims (possibly on both sides unless uninsulated romford drivers are still available) but I can't see any obvious reason why this wouldn't both work AND be cheaper & more available than the alternative solutions.  

 

Anybody ever tried this?  I presume using a bicycle chain tool and a vice it would be possible to remove and reuse the gear wheel from the original triang axle so the cost should be low.

 

I have Romfords on my Wrenn class 20 power bogie which has 1/8th axles. The wheels must be 14mm and smaller than the Triang Dock Shunter which I think are 16mm.   Markits 3/16th axles were not available when I did my last Dock shunter by grinding down the flanges  but I have used the 3/16th axles successfully on Jinty Chassis etc so I don't see any problems with using the Markits wheels and axles except they have spokes, which you can fill with epoxy if it bothers you.    

You don't need a bicycle chain tool to remove the Triang gear.  The wheel sets are held in by a keeper plate, and the insulated one comes off easily so just put a couple of rods or similar behind the gear and across the jaws of a vice bashing the axle end to pop the gear off.

The Hymek / A1A axles are plastic with moulded gears.   I have pressed  Jackson or Romford carriage / wagon wheels minus the insulated bushes press on to the plastic axles but its not very satisfactory,   I don't think the plastic gear is the same size as the Dock shunter /X04 Polly gear, but if it is I don't see why you couldn't use the 3/16th axles and brass gear with 15mm wheels on the Hymek.  They had spoked wheels, in full size. If the Hymek sits too high then the top mounting can be cut out and re fixed a bit higher.  I quite fancy doing a Two motor Triang Hymek...  The plastic axle chassis rely on the pickups centralising the wheelsets so its best to shim the drive gear to centralise it if only using pickups on one side.

The 3 axle one is awful with dummy half centre wheels and best binned, the insulated top hat usually disintegrates as does the bottom keeper plate on the A1A class 37 one and the later bogies are better,  

 

 

[Barclay]

I say go for it and report back, though the wheel size could cause issues. The easiest, though not the quickest way to finescale a Tri-ang motor bogie/Dock Shunter is to get a set of Ultrascale replacement wheels - it's a 5 minute job, after you've waited 8 months for them to arrive of course, but well worth waiting for!

 

[roythebus1]

Just buy an old Tri-ang Brush Type 2, take wheelsets out and use them, they are a straight swap and can be turned down a bit on the lathe if you want slightly thinner wheels.

 

I used Trix AL1 wheels with rubber tyres when they were available to do a Tri-ang Hymek. Used the Tri-ang axles with gears, it would pull a. house down! The problem was that on test on the MRC test track with about 50 wagons on tow the plastic brush holder melted due to slight overheating. :)

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by roythebus1

[Il Grifone]

The plastic brush holder is the weak spot of the motor bogie, I have fitted wire brush supports in the past. The complicated (and difficult and expensive to obtain) earthing collar can happily be dispensed with and the wiring done the same as the other side. This has the happy result of the frame not being live to one of the rails.

 

I am aware that the Tri-ang wheels are undersized. The problem would be fitting the correct size, It's not very noticeable behind the thick chunk of metal which passes for a bogie frame.

Early Peco Streamline had wide flange gaps (1.6mm I believe) to accomodate Tri-ang wheels. They have been tightened up over the years. Replacing the lot with proper metal rails is the answer.

[Booking Hall]

Interesting to hear these alternative approaches to the problem. As far as the DMU is concerned, my approach was to use Gibson 12mm DMU wheels and convert the existing 9/16th Tri-ang axles to fit them, which I detailed in my thread, but it does mean access to a lathe. I haven't tried it (yet!) on my dock shunter, but I see no reason why, in principle, it shouldn't work provided that finescale wheelsets of the required diameter are available.

 

[DCB]

On 13/03/2023 at 18:38, roythebus1 said:

Just buy an old Tri-ang Brush Type 2, take wheelsets out and use them, they are a straight swap and can be turned down a bit on the lathe if you want slightly thinner wheels.

Are you sure the A1A wheels swap into the DMU bogie frame,  The ones I have are plastic axle type insulated both sides and you would need to rig up extra pick ups at the very least  also, the axles are extended beyond the wheels so may need shortening.

 

On 13/03/2023 at 09:02, Barclay said:

 The easiest, though not the quickest way to finescale a Tri-ang motor bogie/Dock Shunter is to get a set of Ultrascale replacement wheels - it's a 5 minute job, after you've waited 8 months for them to arrive of course, but well worth waiting for!

  How does the Ultrascale compare to 2020 Hornby?   I recently converted a Triang tender from Jackson to Hornby wheel sets and the improvement in running is dramatic.  I also converted my son's class156 from traction tyre to plain Hornby wheels and again was very impressed by the running. Vastly better than 2000 era Hornby replacement carriage and wagon wheels which like Jackson are very narrow, 

[roythebus1]

3 hours ago, DCB said:

Are you sure the A1A wheels swap into the DMU bogie frame,  The ones I have are plastic axle type insulated both sides and you would need to rig up extra pick ups at the very least  also, the axles are extended beyond the wheels so may need shortening.

 

  How does the Ultrascale compare to 2020 Hornby?   I recently converted a Triang tender from Jackson to Hornby wheel sets and the improvement in running is dramatic.  I also converted my son's class156 from traction tyre to plain Hornby wheels and again was very impressed by the running. Vastly better than 2000 era Hornby replacement carriage and wagon wheels which like Jackson are very narrow, 

Yes, you CAN use the old Brush type 2 or Hymek wheels. cut the ends off the axles. Simple. Fit an additional pickup wire. Simple. Running standards will depend what track you are using It could be you are trying to run Ultrascale on Peco code 100 or Hornby track. there's a clue in the name, Ultra scale. :)

 

[Barclay]

The Ultrascale will be a touch finer than Hornby and may indeed be less happy on code 100. For finer track they should be fine. For this job the ideal thing is that they come ready assembled with the gear and just drop in.

[DCB]

The small brass Dock Shunter gear has one more tooth compared to the A1A Hymek plastic axle one.

I only know of 2 Triang 00 brass worm wheels or axle gears for worm drive,   The small Dock shunter, DMU, Transcon and 0-4-0  with X04  type and the larger Jinty, Princess  Britannia etc type.

The Hymek axle drops into my Dock Shunter frame and engages the worms but it can doesn't engage like the brass one.  I wouldn't expect it to last long.   I don't think I can bore out Jackson coach wheels enough to fit the plastic axles and I don't think the plastic axle will survive being turned down small enough to fit the biggest hole I can successfully bore in Jackson or Hornby coach wheels either.   Edit  Hymeks need 15mm disc wheels (Triang Hymek are12 mm) but class 22 need 14mm ish Spoked wheels

See Pics with brass gear on plastic axle.

The Hymek wheels do not like being turned down on a lathe but they do polish up very nicely and don't shower sparks all over the living room carpet when polished like the dull ones do

I just put mine on eBay.....

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by DCB

[Halvarras]

On 13/03/2023 at 18:38, roythebus1 said:

Just buy an old Tri-ang Brush Type 2, take wheelsets out and use them, they are a straight swap and can be turned down a bit on the lathe if you want slightly thinner wheels.

 

 

The plastic (nylon I think) one-piece axle should work in the EMU etc with the ends cut off and additional pick-ups fitted (not tried it myself) but the moulded axle now becomes the bearing surface which will never be as precise as a steel axle, and the accuracy of those mouldings was not always perfect. Imperfect ones could cause lumpy running due to an oscillating drive gear. These gears could also be chewed up by imperfect brass worm gears, resulting in concave teeth.I

 

On 13/03/2023 at 04:09, DCB said:

I don't see why you couldn't use the 3/16th axles and brass gear with 15mm wheels on the Hymek.  They had spoked wheels, in full size.

 

 

I'm trying to imagine a Hymek on spoked wheels.......................................... nope, not happening 😁!!

[33C]

Today i ground down some EMU wheels. Picture shows the tools (Dremel mounted grind-stone/ w'n'd sponge block) and left, before, and right, after. Wear eye protection because it gets rather exciting! Took 5 minutes to grind smooth the grooves and take down the flange. Dress and polish with the wet'n'dry block. Just done my Triang Transcontinental double-ender wheels. Smoooooooth.....

[DCB]

#33C  Looks very good.    Did you just use the Dremel or did you revolve the wheel while you did it.    I couldn't make any impression on my Dock shunter wheels except to round off the axle splines when I spun it in the lathe chuck by the axle ( on the non insulated one)

[Captain Slough]

33C you could probably offer that as a service if you needed extra income, looks very good

[33C]

On 25/03/2023 at 05:34, DCB said:

#33C  Looks very good.    Did you just use the Dremel or did you revolve the wheel while you did it.    I couldn't make any impression on my Dock shunter wheels except to round off the axle splines when I spun it in the lathe chuck by the axle ( on the non insulated one)

All I do is hold each wheelset in my hand and roll the stone round the treads. By applying light pressure the dremel follows the rim. Hard to explain  but you can feel it's all in the wrist. The grey stone, cylinder type, found in all Mini-drill sets, seems to work best, just keep it moving to avoid flat spots. Give it a go before you buy replacement wheels.

Edited March 29, 2023 by 33C
Added detail.

[DCB]

The old A1A Hymek type polish up quite nicely.   I reckon they would be OK on code 75 if  the back to back was adjusted, the flange is quite shallow by Triang standards but might be a bit thick   See pic. I made a mandrel from a Jinty axle with a stripped spline and did a set. Thing is it took ages and I don't have a use for them as I don't have any axles.     They are going on eBay

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by DCB