Dapol Autocoach

[lofty1966]

43 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Two lengths were used, 70' and various shorter types around the 57-60' mark; 

Well you just screwed that up Ol' Froot.

That makes at least three.

Don't forget the A27 you're always banging on about was a lot shorter than your other favourite, the A30.

[Miss Prism]

I don't buy the 'saloon' theory. (A B-set is hardly a saloon, is it?) I tend to think it was done in an effort to impress denizens of branchlines, who had to look at the same item of rolling stock for years.

 

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I don't buy the 'saloon' theory. (A B-set is hardly a saloon, is it?) I tend to think it was done in an effort to impress denizens of branchlines, who had to look at the same item of rolling stock for years.

 

I’d say that theory has at least the same amount of traction as mine, ma’am.  Sometimes one has to accept that God’s Wonderful moved in suitably mysterious ways their wonders to perform, and that we cannot always fathom the logic behind them, or even if there was any logic behind them.  We never got to the bottom of the lh/rh roof vents on the 57’ suburbans either, did we?

[rovex]

looks like the new Dapol autocoach behind these air ministry tankers

 

 

[gwrrob]

2 minutes ago, rovex said:

looks like the new Dapol autocoach behind these air ministry tankers

 

 

 

Indeed but a pig to photograph due to the lighting conditions.

[The Fatadder]

[The Johnster]

Wow, pix of real ones, and very nice they look, too!  Really looking forward to getting mine now!

[Hal Nail]

My thoughts exactly although I'm looking at the bck!

[Strathwood]

Just need a surprise new 4mm 14xx to go with the autocoaches now shrunk down from the 7mm ones...

 

Kevin

[David Stannard]

56 minutes ago, Strathwood said:

Just need a surprise new 4mm 14xx to go with the autocoaches now shrunk down from the 7mm ones...

 

Kevin

 

 I already have a 64xx for that job.

[Strathwood]

Ahh but I bet the 14xx is a more popular choice if they were polled.

 

Kevin

[The Johnster]

For my Tondu allocated W 37 W in crimson/cream, there is only one possible class for auto-working it, 4575 as auto-fitted at Swindon in 1953 in connecton with the extension of auto-working in South Wales as part of the new 'regular interval' timetable for Valleys services introduced in the autumn of that year.  This was the direct ancestor of the current Valleys timetable.  I have 5524 and 5555, Bachmnns. 

 

Not doubting that a new 48xx would be popular, though.  Likewise their progenitors, the 517 half-cabs, Fair Rosamund in particular.  A smooth and reliable 0-4-2 mechanism has so far eluded the RTR boys, with the 1974 Airfix being the best runner, until the pickups gave out.  It would not be acceptable nowadays anyway with a cab full of motor, though it wasn't a bad model.  It's bodyshell is still in production for Hornby, but reports of this loco and the DJH model of a few years back suggest that getting a good runner is a lottery.

 

I suspect that the answer to the problem, caused by the difficulty of 'balancing' the loco to prevent it pivoting around the trailing driven axle, will be full 3-point compensation, and I would expect the first widely available RTR engine featuring this will be an 0-4-2 or 2-4-0 type.  Previous attempts have treated the chassis as an 0-6-0, the DJH attempting to gear for all-wheel drive. 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

For my Tondu allocated W 37 W in crimson/cream, there is only one possible class for auto-working it, 4575 as auto-fitted at Swindon in 1953 in connecton with the extension of auto-working in South Wales as part of the new 'regular interval' timetable for Valleys services introduced in the autumn of that year.  This was the direct ancestor of the current Valleys timetable.  I have 5524 and 5555, Bachmnns. 

 

Not doubting that a new 48xx would be popular, though.  Likewise their progenitors, the 517 half-cabs, Fair Rosamund in particular.  A smooth and reliable 0-4-2 mechanism has so far eluded the RTR boys, with the 1974 Airfix being the best runner, until the pickups gave out.  It would not be acceptable nowadays anyway with a cab full of motor, though it wasn't a bad model.  It's bodyshell is still in production for Hornby, but reports of this loco and the DJH model of a few years back suggest that getting a good runner is a lottery.

 

I suspect that the answer to the problem, caused by the difficulty of 'balancing' the loco to prevent it pivoting around the trailing driven axle, will be full 3-point compensation, and I would expect the first widely available RTR engine featuring this will be an 0-4-2 or 2-4-0 type.  Previous attempts have treated the chassis as an 0-6-0, the DJH attempting to gear for all-wheel drive. 

I have a 14xx from Dapol days, from which the current Hornby one is descended. It was Dapol who added wiper pickups and a smaller motor that doesn't fill the cab. Hornby may use a different motor, but I don't think they changed anything else.

 

It came with a ludicrously strong spring on the trailing wheelset which made it look like a drag race "Funny Car" and made for slightly odd, but not drastically horrible, running. Rather than mess about trying to lower it, I taped coins to the back of the loco until it sat right. That sorted out the running too, so I weighed the coins and stuffed the bunker with the equivalent in lead flashing. I also substituted the traction-tyred wheelset with the plain pair from the dead Airfix one it replaced. 

 

With a bit of detailing, it now looks and runs quite acceptably. At least as well as my newer Hatton's/DJH example. I was lucky in getting one of those that behaves itself, at least for now. The exploded diagram makes me a bit apprehensive as to what might happen when a bit of wear develops, so I use it sparingly!

 

A new one that looks as good as the Hatton's model but isn't a matter of pot-luck in the running department would be nice, but 1462 (as it has become) will do the job until it comes along. 

 

John 

 

PS. The new Autocoach looks lovely, though I think the roof vents may be a tad on the chunky side. Hope they'll offer spare bogies!

Edited November 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

In the meantime, check out 3D printed bogies from Stafford Road, who sell through Shapeways, John.  Deans (7’, 8’6”, and 10’’), Americans, and Fishbellies, with NEM pockets or Lima & Hornby pivots if you want, and good runners with Hornby or Bachmann wheels, (no connection satisfied customer). 

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

In the meantime, check out 3D printed bogies from Stafford Road, who sell through Shapeways, John.  Deans (7’, 8’6”, and 10’’), Americans, and Fishbellies, with NEM pockets or Lima & Hornby pivots if you want, and good runners with Hornby or Bachmann wheels, (no connection satisfied customer). 

MJT/Dart Castings are my go-to bogies for anything I can't obtain as r-t-r spares.

 

I would tend not to trust most materials used for 3D printing in a bogie unless it had brass bearings in it and it's a pain fitting those into one-piece bogies unless they are designed to accept them.

 

I couldn't see any reference to that on the site, so I didn't pursue it any further.

 

John  

[Harlequin]

35 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

In the meantime, check out 3D printed bogies from Stafford Road, who sell through Shapeways, John.  Deans (7’, 8’6”, and 10’’), Americans, and Fishbellies, with NEM pockets or Lima & Hornby pivots if you want, and good runners with Hornby or Bachmann wheels, (no connection satisfied customer). 

 

Don't bother. The grainy texture of the material used in these prints is awful - grains the same size as the rivet heads you'd really expect to see. If you fill it or sand it you lose what little detail there is. Unsatisfied customer.

 

6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

MJT/Dart Castings are my go-to bogies for anything I can't obtain as r-t-r spares.

 

I would tend not to trust most materials used for 3D printing in a bogie unless it had brass bearings in it and it's a pain fitting those into one-piece bogies unless they are designed to accept them.

 

I couldn't see any reference to that on the site, so I didn't pursue it any further.

 

John  

 

It is entirely possible to print your own at home now (if you have the CAD skills or can get the STL files, which is admittedly a stumbling block). Current domestic resin printers produce far better quality results than Shapeways and the parts are much cheaper. Bogies should work well if you choose the correct resin (with a bit of elasticity) and leave pockets for brass hat bearings. I'm in the middle of testing that with Dean 8'6" bogies.

 

As a service for obtaining small casual printed parts, Shapeways is a dead idea now, IMHO. That's why they are moving into selling STLs for low end stuff.

 

Sorry, this is very Off Topic!

 

[Rhydgaled]

On 28/11/2023 at 02:48, Dunsignalling said:

I have a 14xx from Dapol days, from which the current Hornby one is descended. It was Dapol who added wiper pickups and a smaller motor that doesn't fill the cab. Hornby may use a different motor, but I don't think they changed anything else.

 

It came with a ludicrously strong spring on the trailing wheelset which made it look like a drag race "Funny Car" and made for slightly odd, but not drastically horrible, running. Rather than mess about trying to lower it, I taped coins to the back of the loco until it sat right. That sorted out the running too, so I weighed the coins and stuffed the bunker with the equivalent in lead flashing. I also substituted the traction-tyred wheelset with the plain pair from the dead Airfix one it replaced.

Hornby now have photos of their latest 14xx on the website https://uk.Hornby.com/products/railroad-plus-gwr-14xx-0-4-2-1401-era-3-r30319 - I'm not sure but as far as I can tell there are no traction tyres so that's another thing Hornby may have changed. Can anyone confirm this (I guess it's too early to also ask whether it's now a decent runner although the shade of green looks a little on the desaturated/olive side)?

[Welchester]

44 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

Hornby now have photos of their latest 14xx on the website https://uk.Hornby.com/products/railroad-plus-gwr-14xx-0-4-2-1401-era-3-r30319 - I'm not sure but as far as I can tell there are no traction tyres so that's another thing Hornby may have changed. Can anyone confirm this (I guess it's too early to also ask whether it's now a decent runner although the shade of green looks a little on the desaturated/olive side)?

 

If you enlarge the three-quarters front view, you can see the traction tyre, sadly.

[rovex]

Yup, defo traction tyres

[The Johnster]

Traction tyres, on a 21st century tooling, unbelievable!  I don't know how many toolings this chassis has been through, but at least two this century, yet the satanic expectorant remains.  The photo shows very well why I hate these things; close study reveals that the tyre is proud of it's wheel rim on the outside edge, and is sunk into it's groove on the inside edge, so it is capable of both messing up any chance of decent pickup performance by lift in the wheel off the rail, and simultaeously allowing the wheel to foul on facing turnout blades, derailing the loco.  What a good idea!

 

I replaced the grooved wheel on my Airfix 14xx half a century ago with a spare from one a friend had given up on, and this improved the running massively.  The loco was still capable of managing two trailers, and those were the old plastic-wheeled Airfix ones, and smooth stopping and starting was now possible where it handn't been before.  I would strongly reccommend the same procedure for this loco.  Not familiar with the mechanism of the current Hornby; does it now have cab detail?

[Harlequin]

12 hours ago, rovex said:

Yup, defo traction tyres

That looks so bad! In every possible way!

 

It would be a travesty to couple up this rubbish to the new Dapol autocoach.

 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Traction tyres, on a 21st century tooling, unbelievable! 

I would hardly call it 21st century tooling, it is only part of the "Railroad" range.

It's still basically the same 1970s Airfix jobby with some "improvements" under the skin. (mainly motor and pickups) The body has hardly changed.

The problem is it is still too light to pull a decent load, reliably, without using traction tyres, with insufficient weight over the front driving wheels.

A diecast boiler/tank subassembly would help.

Hornby really need to bite the bullet and do a completely newly tooled version, which IMHO if done properly, would knock the DJ version with it's dodgy gearing for six.

 

BTW traction tyres are common on European locomotives.

[The Johnster]

It was a travesty to couple it to an Airfix A30...

 

I will have a travesty problem with the new Dapol N.  I've ordered W 37, in crimson/ream. one of a number of trailers transferred to Tondu in connection with the introduction of the Autumn 1953 timetable as mentioned earlier.  It was thought that the low speeds, particularly on the Porthcawl Branch, and short runs between station that typifed the Tondu Valleys would be insufficient to charge the coachs' batteries, and gas-lit trailers were specified for the original Tondu allocation; two Ns (W 38 in crimson was the other one), two A10s (we'll come back to this in a minute), a gangwayed pair of ex-TVR trailers, GW diagram A20, and the sole surviving & re-instated Clifton Downs trailer, A2 no, W 3338.  Photos in the Hodge/Davies books show that W 37 and A10 W 26 ran coupled together for at least 18months, and possibly later, W 26 being the driving trailer and also in crimson/cream.

 

So of course I'm now strenuously wishlisting for an A10, but with the panelled 59'6" trailer market cornered by the N, there is very little chance of an RTR A10 appearing in the foreseable future.  The best I can do to represent W 26 will be to use W 207, a worked-up A31, Keyser whitemetal kit from the 60s, which is fairly similar to an A10 at a quick glance in a low light downhill with a following wind... the entrance vestibule is in the same central position and the windows & panelling are very similar.

 

This thing is going to be completely outclassed by the new Dapol N, and I will have to saw/file all the crude blobby cast detail off and replace it either with retrofit or scratch-build new detail.  This will take a bit of time, and the new N may well spend some time coupled to the Clifton Downs trailer (a Roxey kit) or an A30.  And as the N will have to run between this very heavy coach and the loco, I may have to ballast the N somewhat....

 

It was discovered that the dynamos were capable of charging batteries on Tondu auto-trailers, and the Clifton Downs trailer only lasted about ten months before withdrawal, replaced by an A44 Cyclops.  The TVR set was withdrawn very early, to be replaced by a different TV gangwayed design intended for use on the Porthcawl Branch, but that's another story.  The initial allocation were all replaced by Cyclops or A30 trailers, with A38s appearing in 1960 when the Abergynfi service was diverted to Blaengwnfi and the 4575s replaced by 64xx. 

[Rhydgaled]

On 19/03/2023 at 17:54, The Johnster said:

Airfix A30 

 

Bachmann A38

 

Are these DEFINITELY the diagrams represented by the relevant models; because I think I have seen the Bachmann one referred to with two diagram numbers separated by a slash (eg. A38/A43 although I cannot remember the exact numbers given) before now and the Hornby/Airfix one I think I've seen variously described as an A30, A27 and A28? With the Hornby one, is it the case that the model is of one of those types but the low-fi nature of the model (lack of flush glazing) makes it look similar to a different diagram?

 

On 14/04/2023 at 21:22, Hal Nail said:

This is off Dapols website:

 

Proposed Liveries

4P-004-001   -   Autocoach GWR 37 Lined Crimson Lake 

4P-004-002   -   Autocoach GWR 40 Lined Chocolate & Cream 

4P-004-003   -   Autocoach GWR Twin Cities Crest 41 Chocolate & Cream 

4P-004-004   -   Autocoach GWR Shirt Button 39 Chocolate & Cream 

4P-004-005   -   Autocoach BR W37W Carmine & Cream 

4P-004-006   -   Autocaoch BR W36 Crimson 

4P-004-007   -   Autocoach BR W38 Maroon   

 

Same terminology used for the existing 7mm ones so you can see what they look like.

 

If I understand correctly, none of the above releases feature the late 1940s GREAT <> WESTERN chocolate & cream livery. Is this something that is likely to appear in future runs or did the diagram N trailers never carry this livery?

 

On 29/11/2023 at 09:00, rovex said:

Yup, defo traction tyres

 

Ah yes, I stand corrected. It's hard to see with the wheels being somewhat blackened, but I see it now - the tyre does indeed seem to be there.

 

On 29/11/2023 at 20:49, The Johnster said:

Traction tyres, on a 21st century tooling, unbelievable!  I don't know how many toolings this chassis has been through, but at least two this century, yet the satanic expectorant remains.

 

Has it actually been retooled twice this century? I described this model as Hornby's latest 14xx, but have no idea whether this is a modified tooling compared to their last run or whether it is simply another production run - possibly in a livery they haven't done so far since the tooling was last tweaked. I think the description says the couplings are in "non-NEM pockets" - since things like the Limby HST have had NEM pockets added when Hornby have tweaked the tooling recently it sounds like the 14xx hasn't even had a minor tooling update for a while. I'm not bothered by things like moulded handrails - I prefer not paying more for something more fragile that I'm more likely to break - so am quite partial to the better Railroad models (like the Limby HST) but I do want reliable running. Traction tyres on an 0-4-2 sounds like a recipe for poor running, so I'm out as far as the Hornby 14xx is concerned. Shame as the closest thing I have to a loco which was auto-fitted in reality is probably my Bachmann 45xx (number 4557, so not part of the 4575 subclass that contained a few auto-fitted examples, but was there any difference beyond the larger water tanks?)

[Dunsignalling]

54 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

 

Are these DEFINITELY the diagrams represented by the relevant models; because I think I have seen the Bachmann one referred to with two diagram numbers separated by a slash (eg. A38/A43 although I cannot remember the exact numbers given) before now and the Hornby/Airfix one I think I've seen variously described as an A30, A27 and A28? With the Hornby one, is it the case that the model is of one of those types but the low-fi nature of the model (lack of flush glazing) makes it look similar to a different diagram?

 

 

If I understand correctly, none of the above releases feature the late 1940s GREAT <> WESTERN chocolate & cream livery. Is this something that is likely to appear in future runs or did the diagram N trailers never carry this livery?

 

 

Ah yes, I stand corrected. It's hard to see with the wheels being somewhat blackened, but I see it now - the tyre does indeed seem to be there.

 

 

Has it actually been retooled twice this century? I described this model as Hornby's latest 14xx, but have no idea whether this is a modified tooling compared to their last run or whether it is simply another production run - possibly in a livery they haven't done so far since the tooling was last tweaked. I think the description says the couplings are in "non-NEM pockets" - since things like the Limby HST have had NEM pockets added when Hornby have tweaked the tooling recently it sounds like the 14xx hasn't even had a minor tooling update for a while. I'm not bothered by things like moulded handrails - I prefer not paying more for something more fragile that I'm more likely to break - so am quite partial to the better Railroad models (like the Limby HST) but I do want reliable running. Traction tyres on an 0-4-2 sounds like a recipe for poor running, so I'm out as far as the Hornby 14xx is concerned. Shame as the closest thing I have to a loco which was auto-fitted in reality is probably my Bachmann 45xx (number 4557, so not part of the 4575 subclass that contained a few auto-fitted examples, but was there any difference beyond the larger water tanks?)

I've not seen any obvious sign of Hornby's 14xx tooling having been changed at all since they acquired it from Dapol over a decade ago. The tyres always seemed pretty pointless to me as few 14xx were ever expected to handle more than two coaches.

 

The pick-up and motor upgrades from the original Airfix model were done before Hornby got hold of the tooling, though its possible the motor is not the one Dapol used.

 

All 50p can motors look much the same! 

 

45xx and 4575 prairies are a subject for study in themselves; aside from the obvious bigger tanks, there were various alterations to both sub-classes that were applied to some and not others at different dates.

 

The fitting of auto-gear was for specific duties in South Wales and only applied to a small number of them.