Since you've been in the hobby, what decades/years saw the biggest jump forward in terms of loco/rolling stock detail and are we reaching the 'peak' of what can be detailied/customised?

[OnTheBranchline]

This question was sparked by seeing Rapido's Toad van with the removable roof and inside cabin detail. Right now, locos are being made in such detail that wouldn't have been imaginable 20/30 years ago. But then there's only a finite amount of things that can be done with current manufacturing practices.

 

Basically the questions are:

1) Since you've been in the hobby, when did you see the biggest jump in terms of loco/rolling stock build quality? (for example, when everything moved to China, etc) or has it been a general steady rise in detail since then? 

2) How much more detail do you want on a loco/rolling stock or are you happy with the current level?

 

Of course, shrinking people down to work the locos still might be on the cards in the future. 😆

[bmb5dnp1]

Hello,

    I remember as a very young child being very impressed with the detail and printing on a Mainline blue/grey MK1 RB from the early '80s when compared to the Hornby coaches I owned. I think that Mainline, and to a slightly lesser degree Airfix, were the "game changers". It took Hornby 20+ years and a move to China to catch up to their standards I think.

 

                               Dave 

Edited April 3, 2023 by bmb5dnp1
Clarification

[melmerby]

1970s

I started in the 50s with Triang and bought some Dublo before Meccano collapsed. I also had some Trix coaches & wagons.

Mainline & Airfix both bring a new level of detail to the products (and less 'generic' products!)

Credible, if sometimes inaccurate private owner wagons, (although some of the HD super detail plastic wagons weren't too bad.)

Edited April 3, 2023 by melmerby

[Andy Hayter]

I think that most decades have seen step changes and to be honest that continues even today.

I would cite and have probably missed a few:

Triang make model railways affordable to many more than before

Airfix/Mainline introduction of detailed and much nearer scale models

Bachmann introduction of even more detail, wider range of models and better running (although today we curse the split chassis, at the time it was a big step forward)

Hornby move to Chinese production and further detail improvements and at low prices.

Dapol / Heljan offer affordable rtr 0 gauge.

Rapido - yet more improvements to detail and running

Accurascale and other new entrants - yet more detail improvements

[melmoth]

The step change between, say, the 1972ish Hornby Pannier tank and the 1982ish Mainline equivalent had a massive impact for me personally. The body mouldings of a lot of Airfix/Mainline models are still either acceptable or a pretty good basis from which to start on a more accurate model. Airfix wagon chassis are still pretty good.

 

DCC provision from around 2008 was a significant, ongoing change in terms of controllability - much easier to drive the train rather than the track section.

 

Frankly, I'd be happy to have locos with the sort of body detail and finish that was achieved in the early 80s - and by Hornby in China from 1996 - without all the superfluous whistles and bells (so to speak) that seem obligatory now.

[westerner]

I normally run my stock with the roofs on, so having a finely detailed inside not normally seen seems to me a waste of money, Similarly over detailed underframes not usually seen unless one runs ones stock upside down. It strikes me that all this extra detail takes the need away for railway MODELLERS to actually model, by adding said detail themselves if they feel its needed.

[PMP]

The noughties, and happy with current levels.

[The Johnster]

Seems to me that detail and scale measurements improved massively with the arrival of Airfix and Mainline to the RTR scene, and of Lima to some extent as well.  They have continued to steadilyimprove since, and current RTR is to a very high standard indeed in this regard, but it was that late 70s/early 80s period that was the quantum leap.  Prior to that it was considered acceptable for even whitemetal kits, ‘proper modelling’, to have cabs full of motors, boiler skirts, different sized or flangeless driving wheels, all coaches with B1 bogies, undersized mushroomhead buffers, completely absent or vestigially moulded brake and rodding detail, and couplings that held vehicles a scale 6 feet or so apart at the buffer heads.  RTR used insanely overscale flanges. 
 

I don’t think we are approaching the peak of this process, as there are still further improvements to be had as material, design, and production technology advance and electronics miniaturise further.  Full internal motion, ‘settable’ valve gear, removable working steam era head and tail lamps, and steam/smoke/diesel exhaust simulation are possible future features, and I’d like to see the end of plastic coal as well!  Removable coach, brake van, and loco cab roofs are IMHO a worthwhile improvement (you need gynaecological expertise to put crews in cabs on some locos), and a reasonably discreet reliable and easy to use UK-suitable coupling still evades the designers. 
 

But I’d expect future improvements to come about as a steady developmental evolution; big jumps forwards are things of the past!

[Kris]

Modelling scale will likely make a huge impact into peoples answers. 

 

In n gauge the biggest leap forward for me was between 2000 and 2010 when Dapol and Farish were really challenging each other. New innovations and new levels of detail seemed to be announce every few months. 

As to the current levels of detail, in the main I am happy. I almost said I would like to see more interior detail but then though how much of this would be seen and what would it add to the cost. I can't believe that it would be worth it. 

 

In O gauge the biggest leap forward I have seen is Dapol's introduction of affordable models. This has made the gauge accessible to so many more people.

[Chris M]

In many ways I agree with Kris. The step change in 00 for me was the introduction of Airfix and Mainline locos. That was the first time that RTR became too good to do much with. Before then I could improve most locos with mods, detailing and a repaint. From these models onwards the art of  improving “toys” started to die. This was a shame but a nevertheless a big step forward for the hobby. 
Before the year 2000 I would not have considered N as an option. The locos just weren’t very detailed and didn’t look much like the real thing. The big step change for N happened in the early years of this century. I well remember Graham Hubbard (then Bachmann UK ceo) proudly showing ha pre production sample of his latest Farish loco with its fine valve gear and super detail. 
After a sabbatical from model railways during the late 1990s and early 2000s when I rejoined the fold I went N gauge because it was so good by then. I haven’t looked back since.

We may have reached a point where levels of detail ( and associated cost) have gone as far as they should go.

[33C]

When stock started to get more realistic "out of the box", like Airfix/Mainline. No point having a super-duper, detailed locomotive and train if your layout isn't. 

[Legend]

Probably 2 steps forward 

 

1976/77 . The advent of Mainline/Airfix.  Brought new levels of detail into the hobby at a typically lower price .  Caused Hornby to have a rethink .  If you want to see this at its most stark , have a look at a Mainline J72 when it appeared in 1977 and the Hornby J83 which came out in 1976 . The J72 is a model the J83 a toy

 

2000 New detail levels from China . Clan Line is the best example of this .

 

Detail has progressively been added since then - but do we really need it ?  Will you ever look at the inside detail of the Guards Van or do people derive satisfaction just knowing its there without looking regularly . Same with details under chassis . If you cant see it in normal operation why bother?  There are some who want increasing details at any cost , frankly id settle for something dimensionally correct and highly decorated, but i dont need bells an whistles of operating fans , Guards Vans interiors etc . I think we have gone too far , and this matters because of the expense involved.

[33C]

33 minutes ago, Legend said:

Probably 2 steps forward 

 

1976/77 . The advent of Mainline/Airfix.  Brought new levels of detail into the hobby at a typically lower price .  Caused Hornby to have a rethink .  If you want to see this at its most stark , have a look at a Mainline J72 when it appeared in 1977 and the Hornby J83 which came out in 1976 . The J72 is a model the J83 a toy

 

2000 New detail levels from China . Clan Line is the best example of this .

 

Detail has progressively been added since then - but do we really need it ?  Will you ever look at the inside detail of the Guards Van or do people derive satisfaction just knowing its there without looking regularly . Same with details under chassis . If you cant see it in normal operation why bother?  There are some who want increasing details at any cost , frankly id settle for something dimensionally correct and highly decorated, but i dont need bells an whistles of operating fans , Guards Vans interiors etc . I think we have gone too far , and this matters because of the expense involved.

I seem to have regressed back to a lot of old, Triang stuff. (After a good service and clean, it all rattles round the oval perfectly!) I think this is because a) they have a pleasing, aged look and sound. b) they were produced at the time when the real thing (steam) was a common sight. c) they're cheap!

An old 3F, a rake of "SHELL-BP" tanks, with barrier wagons and a shorty brake van. Lovely!

[DenysW]

17 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Right now, locos are being made in such detail that wouldn't have been imaginable 20/30 years ago in the UK (my addition and emphasis)

Having purchased pre-loved Trix, Roco, and, (on a good model only) Rivarossi steam locos and the same brands plus Marklin coaches and wagons, I'd say the UK has caught up the the detailing expectations that were being met in the German market 20-40 years ago. We just didn't like their prices - and still don't.

[Legend]

51 minutes ago, 33C said:

I seem to have regressed back to a lot of old, Triang stuff. (After a good service and clean, it all rattles round the oval perfectly!) I think this is because a) they have a pleasing, aged look and sound. b) they were produced at the time when the real thing (steam) was a common sight. c) they're cheap!

An old 3F, a rake of "SHELL-BP" tanks, with barrier wagons and a shorty brake van. Lovely!

 

Yep I can understand that . There was a charm about them . Have a look at Oscar Paisleys channel on YouTube for more .  I do still run my old Tri-ang stuff too 

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I don’t think we are approaching the peak of this process, as there are still further improvements to be had as material, design, and production technology advance and electronics miniaturise further.  Full internal motion, ‘settable’ valve gear, removable working steam era head and tail lamps, and steam/smoke/diesel exhaust simulation are possible future features, and I’d like to see the end of plastic coal as well!  Removable coach, brake van, and loco cab roofs are IMHO a worthwhile improvement (you need gynaecological expertise to put crews in cabs on some locos), and a reasonably discreet reliable and easy to use UK-suitable coupling still evades the designers.

You raise there the question of what major breakthroughs next few decades might bring.  Opening carriage doors perhaps?  I have seen done on sliding door stock as a 1-off, so it could become a RTR feature; opening slam-lock doors would be harder to do.

 

Some of what you suggest as desirable is already possible - certainly removable plastic coal loads are not new, leaving you to provide your own real coal (though I can't see RTR manufacturers supplying the real coal themselves, for environmental reasons).  Removable roofs were there with the old Triang coaches, just held down by a couple of long screws - merely a design/production issue.

 

Various forms of smoke/fumes have been around for a long while with some relatively minor recent developments, although their visual realism is still questionable; I don't see that being solved either, although some sort of advance in perfumes might conceivably generate a more realistic steam/diesel atmosphere.

 

Settable valve gear is theoretically possible (tiny servo to move the reversing rod?) but probably far too delicate to justify commercial production in scales as small as OO.  Similarly, inside motion is not very visible on most locos, and has certainly been represented in static form on various locos - making it move is feasible but currently perhaps too expensive for the market.

 

Further miniaturisation of electronics will merely be a way of increasing the number of prototypes that can be fitted with things like lamps or sound in the very small scales - not really a breakthough, just gradual progress.  I don't see that going so far that we can have the holy grail of self-loading passengers and working shunting horses though.  Placeable working lamps is another one that still needs a completely novel technological solution. 

 

Couplings can only be solved if we adopt some new industry standard.  The Hunt style are a recent breakthrough and a big advance in realism, yet they need  a solution to uncoupling.  N gauge has a better compatibility than OO across the manifacturers, but it's far from elegant.

 

Track is an area where we might see radical improvements - with one manufacturer having a near monopoly; battery power and Wifi might bring about a simplifation of the need for wiring, and British OHLE is still suffers from gaps in the market.

 

I think the next couple of decades will see major advances in 3D printing and more particularly the materials used in it, hopefully also bringing down cost and improving consistent quality of printing.  Instead of holding stock of a product, you could currently print a body shell on demand that way, but we are nowhere near being able  to produce it in the desired livery and we still have to resort to paints.

 

[James Makin]

For my take on the UK D&E scene I'd nominate the 2000s - at the start of this decade we had large stocks of basic Lima diesels lining the shelves of every model shop and the pancake-powered Lima Class 66 had arrived only the summer before. We soon saw the Bachmann Class 25, building on the smooth central-drive mechanisms seen in their Warship and '158', and with sprung buffers to boot. Grilles became see-through, both on the '25' and the brand new Class 170 Turbostar hitting the shops then. Hornby had decided they wanted a piece of the action and fired out the then-game-changing 50, 31 and 60 in just a short few years, along with many solid wagon releases from Bachmann. 

 

Each new release gradually had a little something extra from this point, but what makes the 2000s decade stand out to me was the breadth of releases - we ended the 2000s with almost all mainline diesels being covered by 'high-spec' models in one form or another, and had seen the integration of working lights, DCC and DCC Sound as core elements - something we would have marvelled at in 1999 yet took for granted by 2009. The Bachmann wagon range had been transformed from just an HEA/MEA and VGA to a whole range of stuff, whether coal, petroleum, steel, aggregates or distribution - there was something for everyone and at very reasonable prices.

 

A worthy nod goes to the 2010s period - I think the core part there being that there may have been a sense in the hobby that the main manufacturers were possibly becoming a bit bloated, a bit stale, possibly taking their dominating position for granted, which may have led to a new generation of hobbyists thinking 'we can do better', putting big money where their mouths are to sew the seeds for the thriving and competitive scene we have become accustomed to now.

 

I think I'm happy with the level of details we see now - but I'd love to see something in the area of couplings to oust the old tension-lock forever, and something that could make shunting easy, yet 'British' in appearance so to not look as out of place as a Kadee, perhaps building on the fashionable magnet couplings of today, with DCC-powered electromagnets, would be most interesting!

 

Cheers,

James

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

I think that's about right; I was outlining the areas where further improvement might be possible, rather than probable cost effective improvement.  We're crystal ball gazing here, but as you say some of it is already being introduced, such as dummy representative inside motion, which will I contend increase demand for working inside motion.  I'm glad I don't have the task of coming up with a realistic reliable working RTR coupling, though...

 

Smoke has been around since Triang days, but is getting more and more realistic.  Something that would satisfy The Johnster's criteria is a big ask, though; odourless or pleasantly fragranced thick clouds of steam responding to the load on the motor, moving at scale speed, and dissapating without leaving any residue.  But we are already capable of producing realistic diesel fumes.

 

3D printing is an odd one; it promised so much and  has delivered so little.  The problem is that it is far too slow for even low volume production, especially at the sort of resolution we require, and some fine detail items are too delicate and brittle to be even looked at hard, never mind handled.  Cost is another major drawback, not helped by Shapeways' business model and it's incompatibility with import duties.  I would like to be able to order 3D printed items bespoke to my needs, and there are suppliers that can do this, but need me to provide them with the CAD information to tell their printer what to make, and I haven't a clue how to do that.  If they do it for me, things get stupid expensive very quickly.  There's a lot of potential there, though.

 

A solution to placeable working lamps might be to supply current to micro-leds in the lamps from the lamp brackets via contacts on the lamps, made when the lamp is placed on the bracket.  Or fibre optic cables running to the brackets, which have sliding or hinged blanking plates moved out of the way when you place the lamp on the bracket, springing back when it is removed.  It might even be possible to have a rechargeable power supply contained within the lamp; after all, only a very small current is needed and, for most of us, for fairly short periods of time.  Oil lamps need to glow feebly, not shine; if you can see they are lit under your layout's normal ambient 'day' lighting, they are far too bright, in fact lighting of this sort on model railways is much too bright in general, especially for steam era modelling.  Even electric lights in those days were pretty dim glowing filament bulbs, and then we shaded them to make them look pretty.

 

Another of my crystal balls (the reason I sit down very carefully) is the demise of both DC and DCC in favour of on-board rechargeable power supply aboard locomotives, controlled and recharged by NFC from beneath the track.  Dead track, no pickups, no track wiring, and if the motors were the driving axles in a sort of ungeared direct drive on each axle of an entire train, haulage could be improved and, with no gears providing mechanical drag and friction, near-perfect slow running and smooth stops and starts might result.  More grippy materials could be used for railheads and wheel rims.  Perhaps some sort of pulse wave magnetic movement along the track powered from beneath it a bit like linear motors might be possible.  I also predict sound systems using hi-fi headphones that can track the position of the train to ensure that the sound comes from the correct apparent direction, without disturbing the rest of the household with chuffchuff noises.  But I'll be a long time a'moulderin' in m'grave by the time any of this happens.

 

You heard it here first, folks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

To the list of things to come, I would add:

 

holographic passengers getting on and off trains.

Autonomous road vehicles that do not rely on a route set under the roadway.

Horses and other animals that are not static

[BernardTPM]

52 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Oil lamps need to glow feebly, not shine; if you can see they are lit under your layout's normal ambient 'day' lighting, they are far too bright, in fact lighting of this sort on model railways is much too bright in general, especially for steam era modelling.  Even electric lights in those days were pretty dim glowing filament bulbs, and then we shaded them to make them look pretty.

Very true. The bright lights look very toy like.

Until after the end of steam actually having oil lamps lit was not required by the rules during the hours of daylight (unless in fog or falling snow).

[Dave John]

To be fair Johnster quite a lot of folk have been quietly pushing forward some techniques for battery radio control. Giles and Corbs have made some wonderful stuff , and I have had a go using basic rechargeable batteries and radio control over on the 1/50 scale blog. ( batteries and r/c gear for under 30 quid ? ) 

 

Motors are another point you raise. Although geared I have used axle hung traction motors with some success. Expensive ? Nope 6 quid a go from China. 

 

Removeable lamps ? Hmm, I haven't cracked that yet. However I do have easily removable bodies held on with magnets which also conduct the electricity for body mounted lighting. Test show that low currents don't harm the magnets. 

 

I accept that I'm playing with close to 6mm / foot rather than 4 mm and that some of my scratchbuilding might be viewed as crude. But with modern manufacturing techniques some of the ideas I am playing with ( and which you suggest ) could I think be scaleable to 4mm by the specialist rtr manufacturers. 

 

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I also predict sound systems using hi-fi headphones that can track the position of the train to ensure that the sound comes from the correct apparent direction,

4D sound from TrainController.

It uses 4 speakers at the corners of the layout for positional sound.

I see no real reason why quadraphonic headphones couldn't be used, (as long as you sit in the same place all the time!)

[33C]

30 minutes ago, melmerby said:

4D sound from TrainController.

It uses 4 speakers at the corners of the layout for positional sound.

I see no real reason why quadraphonic headphones couldn't be used, (as long as you sit in the same place all the time!)

So much for a nice, quiet, hobby! 

[The Johnster]

Exactly.  Speakers are a non-starter for domestic use, and a pita at shows.  Nobody wants to hear your trains, even other railway people, snd you really shouldn’t be imposing your hobby on other people like that IMHO; headphones are the way to go with this and you don’t have to put up with the horrible tinny little speakers taking up room on your locos.  Something that size running on less than a watt cannot produce a realistic sound; it’s a gimmick!
 

I’ve cracked lighting except for loco and tail lamps, which have to be positionable on a BLT where trains change direction.  Daylight is fine, as I use Modelu lamps which are positionable, though the handles are very fragile.  They are clearly not designed for handling, and the entire thinking behind products from the trade to do this sort of thing seems to be predicated on use on roundyrounds, no use at all to me!  I want to able to do night operation, and don’t mind handling the lamps for home use; no good for shows, though. 
 

I’m considering a simple R/C forward/reverse battery powered experiment for dead slow colliery shunting on a Dapol J94, which has no vertical play at all in it’s chassis and despite care to get my track dead level doesn’t like some locations, but it would be the very bottom of a learning curve!

Edited April 4, 2023 by The Johnster

[jjb1970]

I'll answer from the perspective of British outline, given that the evolution of British outline has followed a very different trajectory from other European markets, Japan and the USA. I have European, Japanese and US models going back to the 80's that still cut the mustard for fidelity to prototype and detail and run extremely well.

 

As with others, we had a bit of a false dawn in the 70's with Mainline and Airfix improving detail significantly (though their mechanisms weren't great) but when they left the scene that momentum was lost. In the 80's Lima had a prolific output of new locomotive tooling which in some cases was very well done for the time. Although they were a bit uneven the better models like the 47 and 73 captured the look of the prototypes very well and in Hornby form still provide a good entry point for those on a budget or who want a super detail or conversion project. They did some nice wagons too, the cement tanks were very nicely done. However despite offering excellent mechanisms and higher levels of detail with separately applied parts for some of their other European markets their British offerings in collaboration with RiKo never really made that leap. The 20 sort of did, and at the end the 67 had cardan shaft drive but still a plastic chassis if I remember correctly (I may well be wrong).

 

Then we had a paradigm shift in the late 90's/early 2000's as Bachmann came into the market with much improved mechanisms, and then Hornby moved production and released the Rebuilt Merchant Navy. I think that in terms of detail, fidelity to prototype and running quality models hit diminishing returns in the 00's. You can always make improvements, and there are spaces to make a big improvement on an existing model but I think such cases (the Accurascale Deltic being one) will be increasingly difficult to identify.

 

The new Hornby 9F is superb, but there's nothing really wrong with the older Bachmann model. The latest Bachmann 37 and 47 and superb but their older versions were excellent and I see no reason to replace the older models. The Cavalex 56 looks excellent but I'm happy enough with my Hornby examples.

 

There may be advances in digital functionality and sound (personally I am not really into that, I like DCC for improved slow speed running and better control, I have zero interest in sound, smoke effects, dancing party coaches and such like) and we may see battery power replace power from the rails (though I'm not sure making even more batteries to replace a perfectly good system that doesn't need them is a positive development given where we are in the world).