Can you date these early photos of Thame station

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I came across  these early photos of Thame station and wonder if anyone can give an idea on date at first I thought they were 1920s but have a feeling they might be earlier as the wagon has number plates which would date it between 1894 to 1913 plus there is still bulk road on the running lines. They might not be taken on the same date anyway as the staff photo looks more 1920 fashion.

 

David

[magmouse]

The height of the wagon 7851? suggests it is a diagram O2 7-plank, built 1905-07. So the photo is no earlier than 1905. Is that a date chalked on it? Could be 18/7/09?

 

Nick.

[kitpw]

16/7/09? (chalked on wagon side)

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Sometimes the obvious stares you in the face, I was looking for other clues rather than a chalked date!

 

The station building shot does not seem to show the footbridge unless it was hidden by the building  which was put up in 1891 but the fashions look much later than that. 

 

[Tony Cane]

The notice in the first picture has the text "European war"  on second line of small text. So this probably is a WWI picture backed up by the number of female staff?

 

[unravelled]

1 hour ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

Sometimes the obvious stares you in the face, I was looking for other clues rather than a chalked date!

 

The station building shot does not seem to show the footbridge unless it was hidden by the building  which was put up in 1891 but the fashions look much later than that. 

 

Looking at a map, I think that at the angle the photo was taken, the footbridge would have been hidden by the building.

One detail of the building which differs from its final state is that there are notice boards at the right hand end of the building, where later there was a window. Is there a known date for this alteration?

What seems to be the same tree is present to the end, by which time it was the height of the building.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I noticed the window was missing to the lamp/store room, it is not on the original plans either, but as a later addition was matched in quite well.  

 

The attached photo shows the station after closure and demolition of the overall roof. yes the tree is still there, but the post box has gone.

Edited April 13, 2023 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

The notice in the first picture has the text "European war"  on second line of small text. So this probably is a WWI picture backed up by the number of female staff?

 

 

Stretcher practice is also suggestive of wartime.  Who gets to play the casualty - the stationmaster?

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, magmouse said:

The height of the wagon 7851? suggests it is a diagram O2 7-plank, built 1905-07. So the photo is no earlier than 1905. Is that a date chalked on it? Could be 18/7/09?

 

Lot 522 was for 450 wagons numbered 78431-78880. Atkins et al., GWR Foods Wagons (3rd edition) note some or all of this lot were fitted with AVB, making them Open Bs of diagram O10 rather than Open As of O2, but that is evidently not the case here. 

 

Interesting that many of these O2 / O10 wagons were given cast numberplates, despite being built after the 1904 livery change. From other photos, it appears they did not have the matching  G.W.R cast plates. 

[dagrizz]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Stretcher practice is also suggestive of wartime.  Who gets to play the casualty - the stationmaster?

 

If the chalk date (1909) is correct then this is five years before WW1. Was first aid training and practice routine on the railways at this time?

[73c]

9 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

The notice in the first picture has the text "European war"  on second line of small text. So this probably is a WWI picture backed up by the number of female staff?

Also mentions that the Passenger train Boat services may be curtailed or interrupted. Still has V R on the post box.

[Mike_Walker]

V R doesn't really mean anything there are still a few around today .

[kitpw]

9 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

The notice in the first picture has the text "European war"  on second line of small text.

I thought it was interesting that the poster was published by the Railway Clearing House, not the GWR. Was the "Railway Clearing House" something that the publlic would have recognised/understood in the same way that we would recognise BR or Railtrack?

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

The notice in the first picture has the text "European war"  on second line of small text. So this probably is a WWI picture backed up by the number of female staff?

 

19 minutes ago, 73c said:

Also mentions that the Passenger train Boat services may be curtailed or interrupted. Still has V R on the post box.

 

The staff photo is certainly Great War and probably fairly early on. When did the railways start taking on female staff to replace men who had volunteered?

 

The poster reads:

 

Railway Clearing House

Seymour Street, Euston Square, London NW

 

Traffic by

Passenger Train

 

Notice is hereby given that in

consequence of the European war

[ ] the regular passenger train

[and?] boat services usually run by

[the] railway companies may be con

[isider]ably curtailed or interrupted,

[ ] that traffic can only be accepted

[ ] can be dealt with and then

[only] on the understanding that

[respo]nsibility will not be accepted

[for] any delay, damage, or loss

[that] may arise through any such

[ ]lment or interruption.

 

Executive Committee

 

Interesting that it is headed Railway Clearing House, rather than Railway Executive Committee - though that is presumably what the Executive Committee at the end refers to. This does illustrate that the REC didn't come into existence out of the blue but used the existing structures of the RCH. The Executive Committee was made up of the General Managers of the principal companies - in other words, it was a continuation of the existing RCH General Managers' Committee.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Compound2632

[Michael Hodgson]

6 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I thought it was interesting that the poster was published by the Railway Clearing House, not the GWR. Was the "Railway Clearing House" something that the publlic would have recognised/understood in the same way that we would recognise BR or Railtrack?

They may not have recognised the RCH as such, but I think they would have realised from its full title that it was an industry body, also that Euston Square was railway-related, and of course they would be aware that we were at war.  No risk of confusion.

[kitpw]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They may not have recognised the RCH as such

That's rather what I thought:  the RCH may be familar to railway historians/enthusiasts/modellers, but I've always understood it to be a rather arcane institution with no "public" face.  I note that its main concern here seems to be "the railway companies won't accept any claims" - certainly no confusion in that!

 

[Morello Cherry]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

The staff photo is certainly Great War and probably fairly early on. When did the railways start taking on female staff to replace men who had volunteered?

 

The poster reads:

 

Railway Clearing House

Seymour Street, Euston Square, London NW

 

Traffic by

Passenger Train

 

Notice is hereby given that in

consequence of the European war

[ ] the regular passenger train

[and?] boat services usually run by

[the] railway companies may be con

[isider]ably curtailed or interrupted,

[ ] that traffic can only be accepted

[ ] can be dealt with and then

[only] on the understanding that

[respo]nsibility will not be accepted

[for] any delay, damage, or loss

[that] may arise through any such

[ ]lment or interruption.

 

Executive Committee

 

Interesting that it is headed Railway Clearing House, rather than Railway Executive Committee - though that is presumably what the Executive Committee at the end refers to. This does illustrate that the REC didn't come into existence out of the blue but used the existing structures of the RCH. The Executive Committee was made up of the General Managers of the principal companies - in other words, it was a continuation of the existing RCH General Managers' Committee.

 

The interesting figure to me is the young man on the left on the bottom row. He looks to me to be the youngest person there and probably the only one who is of military age - maybe even younger. His hands and the hands of the figure behind him suggest that they are footplate crew. Perhaps suggesting a later date when the labour shortage really started to bite

 

Generally, I think women working on the railways was from 1915 onwards. per https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/women-at-work-first-world-war/

 

and

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/02/first-world-war-women-work-railways-1915

(Original article July 1915 - lists roles women can fulfil)

 

But tbh - any date from summer 1915 to autumn 1918.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

Generally, I think women working on the railways was from 1915 onwards. per https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/women-at-work-first-world-war/

 

and

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/02/first-world-war-women-work-railways-1915

(Original article July 1915 - lists roles women can fulfil)

 

But tbh - any date from summer 1915 to autumn 1918.

 

Also, from a quick dip into various books, I think it was not until mid-1915 that passenger train services were really curtailed. 

 

The occasion for the photo might be the women joining the staff?

 

As to the lad with the darkened hands, if he's the junior porter, he's been cleaning out the fireplaces and filling the lamps.

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

 

 

Some sort of badge (different kinds) on upper sleeves. Haven't noticed that on period uniforms before, other than GWR Police but that looked different.  Perhaps a marker of some sort of training/distinction (emergency aid)?

 

[Morello Cherry]

 

 

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Also, from a quick dip into various books, I think it was not until mid-1915 that passenger train services were really curtailed. 

 

The occasion for the photo might be the women joining the staff?

 

As to the lad with the darkened hands, if he's the junior porter, he's been cleaning out the fireplaces and filling the lamps.

 

Could be. I think the figure behind is the driver and the young lad the fireman. They both have darkened hands and different uniforms to everyone else. The figures behind resting his hands on the younger man's shoulders indicates some kind of connection between the two which isn't apparent for anyone else. (They don't look like they could be related but it is a possibility too).

 

I reckon the RCH poster dates it early but the inclusion of women dates it to no earlier than 1915. I assume later in the war the poster would have been updated (although damage to the poster suggests it has been up for a while).

[bécasse]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Stretcher practice is also suggestive of wartime.  Who gets to play the casualty - the stationmaster?

 

For somewhere like Thame stretcher practice would have had little relevance during the Great War (but much more so during WWII). The railway association with the volunteer first aid movement goes back a very long way, with the management often rewarding well-qualified volunteers with an extra day's leave and travel pass, so I suspect that it is this activity that it is depicted in the second photo.

 

The presence of several women and the lack of lads (bar one youngster who could well be too young to be called up) in the first photo certainly suggests a date during, or immediately after, the Great War.

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Perhaps a marker of some sort of training/distinction (emergency aid)?

"Besides his main duties for the Great Western, Dean was also instrumental in the founding of a branch of the St. John Ambulance Association in the Swindon works, becoming its president until his retirement" [http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_gwr_dean.html.  The man on the left may have the top badge of the two illustrated - [Getty Images, embedding permitted]

but there are also other badges for the St John Ambulance for GWR and first aid - see Bonhams auction citation here:

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/10606

/lot/787/

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by kitpw

[phil_sutters]

4 hours ago, 73c said:

Also mentions that the Passenger train Boat services may be curtailed or interrupted. Still has V R on the post box.

There is a VR post box still in use near me. I pass it on the way into town. We had an EIIR one installed a few months after HM's death. They are not good indicators of dates!

I am sure that I have read, possibly in the context of Highbridge S&DJR Works, that there were hotly contested first aid competitions between departments and stations.

Edited April 13, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Steamport Southport]

As you know the location and a vague date, it might be worth getting in touch with any local history groups. They might even know who the staff actually are.

 

Many of the line histories by publishers such as Oakwood and Middleton Press have that sort of details in them. At least who the stationmaster was.

 

Maybe someone to do with these might know.

 

https://www.thame.net/archives/16249

 

https://www.thamemuseum.org/

 

https://www.thameremembers.org/

 

 

Jason

[Mikkel]

6 hours ago, kitpw said:

"Besides his main duties for the Great Western, Dean was also instrumental in the founding of a branch of the St. John Ambulance Association in the Swindon works, becoming its president until his retirement" [http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_gwr_dean.html.  The man on the left may have the top badge of the two illustrated - [Getty Images, embedding permitted]

but there are also other badges for the St John Ambulance for GWR and first aid - see Bonhams auction citation here:

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/10606

/lot/787/

 

 

 

Thanks Kit. So that is presumably the aim of the photo - to show such a team or illustrate a particular exercise.

 

Incidentally, I found this 1907 instruction booklet on GWR uniforms the other day:

 

https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/4dce68da-720a-3256-b7e2-13a9a317b0d7/GWR-Standard-List-of-Uniform-Clothing-booklet/?field0=with_images&value0=on&field1=string&value1=roath dock&index=2

 

I don't think I have seen that referenced anywhere in the standard works (although as we are all agreeing at the moment, the standard works tend to have terrible reference practices). It would make an interesting read, I think. It looks to be in store though, so prior arrangements need to be made.