Suburban Passenger Train Formations

[KLee55]

Can anyone assist as regards the use of brake coaches  in trains formed of non corridor suburban coaching stock on the Midland Region in the late 50s/early60s period (in particular, ex LMS stock) It appear that there were generally two with one at each end of the train. 

 

How common was it for a train to include only one brake coach?

 

If only one brake coach was used, where would this have been marshalled in the train?

[csiedmo]

The LMR Central division ran a bunch of ex-LMS non corridor BS-C-BS formations. I’m not sure without looking but it I think that a single BS or BC might possibly be in a two coach formation. That was certainly the case with corridor stock. 

[Steamport Southport]

Quite common.

 

A BT and a C or even a T with the brake section near the middle (or van inboard as the LMS called it).

 

Click on the instructions here for some typical formations.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/m58k/

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Aire Head]

On the Aire Valley Line which I am depicting two formations were used for local trains.

 

BT-C-BT the van end of the brake coaches was typically marshalled to the ends of the formation however this isn't always the case

 

C-BT with the van end of the brake typically marshalled into the centre of the formation however again this wasnt always the case.

 

When required strengthening vehicles were attached which is usually a Third. These were attached to the end of the formation so this could result in

 

BT-C-BT-T

 

C-BT-T

[Wickham Green too]

Sorry to repeat my pet whinge - but can we try to get away from calling anything non-gangwayed 'suburban', please .......... many of them never ventured anywhere near a suburb ! 🙄

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Sorry to repeat my pet whinge - but can we try to get away from calling anything non-gangwayed 'suburban', please .......... many of them never ventured anywhere near a suburb ! 🙄

 

I think you'll find most of the LMS was and still is suburban or main line. Not many sleepy branchlines around here.

 

Suburban railways? We invented them! The first proper railway was a suburban railway going from Liverpool to Manchester with stations to stop off at for commuters. Stations such as Rainhill and Huyton were built entirely for that reason with next to no goods facilities. Most stations in places like Liverpool and Manchester never had any.

 

So Suburban is a valid term.

 

BTW BR even called them that!

 

As did the SR with titles such as 4 Sub. Guess what the sub stands for.....

 

 

Jason

Edited April 17, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[Wickham Green too]

Though the L.T.& S. and Cathcart Circle stock were, indeed built for 'suburban' lines, the L.M.S. built ( and, of course inherited ) loads of Lavatory and non lavatory stock for cross-country and branchline use ............ I, personally, wouldn't classify the likes of Wick, Leadhills, Afon Wen or Uppingham as being a suburb of anywhere !

 

Yes, of course the 4SUB units were suburban - but like the L.T.& S. and Cathcart Circle stock they rarely strayed from the 'burbs they were built for. ( The longer distance non-gangwayed BIL, HAL, NOL & LAV units weren't called 'SUB'.)

[Wheatley]

Talking of the Cathcart Circle and other Glasgow area local services:

 

BT-T-C-T-BT

 

In 5 or 10 coach sets as required, all periods mixed in together and  supplemented by BR Mk1 and Thompson coaches by the 50s/60s. Having the required number of seats was more important than having a matching rake. 

[jim.snowdon]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I think you'll find most of the LMS was and still is suburban or main line. Not many sleepy branchlines around here.

 

Suburban railways? We invented them! The first proper railway was a suburban railway going from Liverpool to Manchester with stations to stop off at for commuters. Stations such as Rainhill and Huyton were built entirely for that reason with next to no goods facilities. Most stations in places like Liverpool and Manchester never had any.

 

So Suburban is a valid term.

 

BTW BR even called them that!

 

As did the SR with titles such as 4 Sub. Guess what the sub stands for.....

 

 

Jason

Many cross-country stopping services were formed of non-gangwayed/non-corridor stock.

 

I think we can blame their being labelled 'suburban' on the model railway manufacturers, ie Hornby/Triang/Farish.

[The Johnster]

There are distinctions to be made, I contend.  'Suburban' stock proper is usually designed for high-density 12 seats-to-a-compartment, 6 a side minimal legroom work with doors to each compartment to enable fast boarding or detraining and short station dwell times, often close coupled in fixed sets and occasionally articulated.  Branch stock tends to be cascaded stopping train stuff with larger parcels compartments, and more legroom & 5-a-side seating, as does 'outer suburban' stock.

 

[pH]

10 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Talking of the Cathcart Circle and other Glasgow area local services:

 

BT-T-C-T-BT

 

In 5 or 10 coach sets as required …

When I started paying (some) attention to train makeup on the Gourock line, about 1962, I seem to remember many 8-car sets, especially in rush hours.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Weren't the non-gangwayed Mark 1s specifically called "suburban", like the DMUs with doors to every seating bay (classes 115, 116, 117, 118, 125 and 127)? I can see why some people might then apply the term to all other non-gangwayed stock, but in pre-Mark 1 days, non-gangwayed stock was used for all sorts of trains, and not just suburban workings.

 

I see from my Ian Allen spotting books from the 1970s that the "suburban" label was also used for SUB and EPB units on the Southern, but not for HAPs or SAPs, which also had a door to every seating bay, and certainly the VEPs weren't suburban, for they were painted in blue and grey. The term wasn't used for other regions' EMUs at all.

 

Also, not all suburban trains were worked by "suburban" stock. Finsbury Park had a fleet of 105s for local services from King's Cross (and I have to pity the poor people who had to use them). I think the intention had been to use 125s, but these proved even less reliable than the 105s.

 

[phil-b259]

38 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

 

Also, not all suburban trains were worked by "suburban" stock. Finsbury Park had a fleet of 105s for local services from King's Cross (and I have to pity the poor people who had to use them).

 

 

I have heard that the 105s were one of the earlier DMU designs and were originally ordered for branch lines / cross country rural routes which were then closed by Beaching as the DMUs were being built.

 

BR therefore redeployed the fleet to Kings Cross suburban duties (thus negating the need for further new build stock) despite the 105s 'rural' design with a limited number of doors per car, plus their relatively feeble engines which did them no favours on the climb out of Kings Cross or ability to accelerate away from frequent station stops..

[KLee55]

Thanks for your replies. Can anyone help as regards loco classes generally used to haul non-gangwayed stock (late 50s/early 60s Midland Region). I believe Stanier 4ps were common. Any others?

[Aire Head]

53 minutes ago, KLee55 said:

Thanks for your replies. Can anyone help as regards loco classes generally used to haul non-gangwayed stock (late 50s/early 60s Midland Region). I believe Stanier 4ps were common. Any others?

 

Oh boy which part of the Midland Region?

 

On the Aire Valley Line I know that the following were used

 

Fowler 4F

Johnson 3F

Ivatt 2MT (both types)

Stanier/Fowler 3P

L&Y Radial

Midland 2P

Ivatt 4MT

Fowler/Fairburn/Stanier 4MT

 

So a large variety of stuff was used! 

 

The reason I ask what part of the Midland Region is that whoever the original pregrouping owner of the route was could effect things well into the 60s.

 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Jeremy C said:

Weren't the non-gangwayed Mark 1s specifically called "suburban", ...

Young Mr.Parkin does refer to "... replacing of suburban stock ..." in the first line of his section on 'Non-gangwayed stock' but I can't see any further use of the term.

[KLee55]

I had, in mind, the West Midlands and surrounding areas but including cross country services (formed of non-gangwayed stock). Were any diesel hauled?

[Clive Mortimore]

4 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

Weren't the non-gangwayed Mark 1s specifically called "suburban", like the DMUs with doors to every seating bay (classes 115, 116, 117, 118, 125 and 127)? I can see why some people might then apply the term to all other non-gangwayed stock, but in pre-Mark 1 days, non-gangwayed stock was used for all sorts of trains, and not just suburban workings.

 

I see from my Ian Allen spotting books from the 1970s that the "suburban" label was also used for SUB and EPB units on the Southern, but not for HAPs or SAPs, which also had a door to every seating bay, and certainly the VEPs weren't suburban, for they were painted in blue and grey. The term wasn't used for other regions' EMUs at all.

 

Also, not all suburban trains were worked by "suburban" stock. Finsbury Park had a fleet of 105s for local services from King's Cross (and I have to pity the poor people who had to use them). I think the intention had been to use 125s, but these proved even less reliable than the 105s.

 

No

 

[Clive Mortimore]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I have heard that the 105s were one of the earlier DMU designs and were originally ordered for branch lines / cross country rural routes which were then closed by Beaching as the DMUs were being built.

 

BR therefore redeployed the fleet to Kings Cross suburban duties (thus negating the need for further new build stock) despite the 105s 'rural' design with a limited number of doors per car, plus their relatively feeble engines which did them no favours on the climb out of Kings Cross or ability to accelerate away from frequent station stops..

The class 105s used out of Kings Cross were in service on the Great Northern before Dr Beeching left ICI metals division.

 

It is said the batch that worked in East Anglia and on the GN outer suburban services were built for the M&GNJR. This batch was ordered in 1957, the announcement the M&GNJR was to close came in 1958, so planning must have been going on when they were ordering new DMUs for the line? Many of the Cravens units were delivered with LT trip-cock gear for working the Widened Lines, so again why have units destined for sleepy Norfolk fitted with gubbins that was only of use between York Road platform and Moorgate?

 

I am sure had the M&GNJR stayed open this batch of Cravens units would have been seen plying for trade around Melton Constable but I don't think as often stated the whole batch was built for this line. There would have been more new coaches built for it than it ever had, for a line that was not profitable. 

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, KLee55 said:

I had, in mind, the West Midlands and surrounding areas but including cross country services (formed of non-gangwayed stock). Were any diesel hauled?

 

 

You might want to set aside a few hours to trawl through this site:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/index.htm

 

[bécasse]

45 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The class 105s used out of Kings Cross were in service on the Great Northern before Dr Beeching left ICI metals division.

 

It is said the batch that worked in East Anglia and on the GN outer suburban services were built for the M&GNJR. This batch was ordered in 1957, the announcement the M&GNJR was to close came in 1958, so planning must have been going on when they were ordering new DMUs for the line? Many of the Cravens units were delivered with LT trip-cock gear for working the Widened Lines, so again why have units destined for sleepy Norfolk fitted with gubbins that was only of use between York Road platform and Moorgate?

Obviously they had to have trip-cock gear for working over the Widened Lines but many of the units used on the GN also had provision for the fitment of token-exchangers which can only have been for use on the M&GN. My suspicions have always been that the decision to effectively close the M&GN was taken quite late on, BR had a major financial crisis during 1958 (which resulted in much thinning of train services elsewhere) and the swift closure of the M&GN would have been one way for the ER to meet its obligations for harsh cuts.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Obviously they had to have trip-cock gear for working over the Widened Lines but many of the units used on the GN also had provision for the fitment of token-exchangers which can only have been for use on the M&GN. My suspicions have always been that the decision to effectively close the M&GN was taken quite late on, BR had a major financial crisis during 1958 (which resulted in much thinning of train services elsewhere) and the swift closure of the M&GN would have been one way for the ER to meet its obligations for harsh cuts.

A rubber pad was added to several types of DMU operating in East Anglia, post the closure of the M&GNJR,  to prevent damage to the the bodywork behind the cab door if the driver didn't catch the token. I have never seen damage to those units that did not receive this addition but worked the same lines. It was not token exchange apparatus. The M&GNJR token exchange was just above 4 ft above rail level, a height a signalman could reach without acceding a ladder. On the locos it was at tender running board height. The rubber pad was at coach window height another 3 feet higher.  Plus anyone who has travelled on a DMU in East Anglia knows where high speed tablet exchange takes place so does this,

"Hello Jack"

"I see your on early turns this week Bert"

"Yeah, you know I hate getting up early."

"How is your Ethel's varicose veins? Dot was asking about them at the weekend."

"No change."

"Ill let Dot know".

"Must get going, give my love to Auntie Rose".

Edited April 18, 2023 by Clive Mortimore

[jim.snowdon]

14 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

Weren't the non-gangwayed Mark 1s specifically called "suburban", like the DMUs with doors to every seating bay (classes 115, 116, 117, 118, 125 and 127)? I can see why some people might then apply the term to all other non-gangwayed stock, but in pre-Mark 1 days, non-gangwayed stock was used for all sorts of trains, and not just suburban workings.

Arguably, by the time BR built them, they were destined for suburban use, with gangwayed ex-main line stock having cascaded its way down onto cross-country services.

 

14 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

I see from my Ian Allen spotting books from the 1970s that the "suburban" label was also used for SUB and EPB units on the Southern, but not for HAPs or SAPs, which also had a door to every seating bay, and certainly the VEPs weren't suburban, for they were painted in blue and grey. The term wasn't used for other regions' EMUs at all.

The VEPs certainly weren't suburban, but everything on the Southern was plain blue until quite late on, even the REP+TC sets, despite Portsmouth and Bournemouth/Weymouth being definitely not suburban. I suspect the change only came about when someone finally accepted that the fast Waterloo - Bournemouth/Weymouth services were on a par with other region's InterCity services.

 

[Morello Cherry]

Here is an Ivatt 2MT on some non-corridors in the throbbing metropolis of Barmouth with the van inwards from 1964.

 

 

FWIW - the Warwickshire railways site has a good section on the Ashchurch line as far as Evesham but looking at the photos it appears to be a mix, some services use corridor stock, some use non-corridor stock. So tbh you could probably get away with a mix.