TPE loses contract

[skipepsi]

Does anyone think there may be an opening for a national organisation to coordinate a railway service across the UK only dependent on the Treasury... 

[Ray H]

It might cost less than the present arrangement!

[spamcan61]

23 minutes ago, skipepsi said:

Does anyone think there may be an opening for a national organisation to coordinate a railway service across the UK only dependent on the Treasury... 

Seems to me that whilst the railways are reliant on the Treasury then they will be run directly or indirectly by civil servants. Not sure how much of the railway "network" could be run viably as a business.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

 I can immediately think of a route that should never have gone over to DMUs and is sufficiently self-contained - the operator has no other diesel routes/stock. Transfer the 68s + Mk5s to the Waterloo - Exeter route...

Or maybe better still, Cross-Country?

[woodenhead]

14 minutes ago, R. Knowles said:

Or maybe better still, Cross-Country?

Cannot run two sets together so whilst more capacity than any single voyager when they run in twos they have a lot more seats.  Whilst they do have some HSTS they will go this year leaving them with just Voyagers and some 170s, they probably wouldn't want to train on a new traction type with limited application.

 

A five car Mk5 has 291 seats

A four car 220 has 200 seats

A four car 221 has 188 seats

A five car 221 has 250 seats

 

 

[Graham108]

1 hour ago, skipepsi said:

Does anyone think there may be an opening for a national organisation to coordinate a railway service across the UK only dependent on the Treasury... 

And call it something like .... British Rail

[RedgateModels]

18 minutes ago, Graham108 said:

And call it something like .... British Railways

 

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

 Unfortunately that also seems to apply to some of those actually running railway companies. apart from the 'freely admit' bit !

Some are, and some have been excellent, but in the case of some others paying them would have been a gross waster of brass washers (because they certainly didn't merit being paid with anything else).

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Cannot run two sets together so whilst more capacity than any single voyager when they run in twos they have a lot more seats.  Whilst they do have some HSTS they will go this year leaving them with just Voyagers and some 170s, they probably wouldn't want to train on a new traction type with limited application.

 

A five car Mk5 has 291 seats

A four car 220 has 200 seats

A four car 221 has 188 seats

A five car 221 has 250 seats

 

 

Interesting post. As an XC user from time to time,what’s on offer to replace their 125’s which are due for the knacker’s yard shortly ? Can’t see the TPE 68 sets doing it but Avanti WC have their 221’s being replaced soon so I would think they’ll fill the vacancy.EMR also have their Meridian units being similarly displaced .Thus maybe problem solved ? But I’m sure a suitable replacement problem will arise to confuse the issue.All too simple…not.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, skipepsi said:

Does anyone think there may be an opening for a national organisation to coordinate a railway service across the UK only dependent on the Treasury... 

While some have mentioned BR what you have suggested also fits the original privatisation model albeit there were the Franchising Director and SRA in that mix.  That arrangement kept DafT's noses out of things and I think at that tiem the 'railwaty section' of what has become DafT was still about is orighinal size as a very small part of the Minstry.

 

It all went wrong in three principal ways -

 

1.  The privatisation of Railtrack completely disrupted the original financial model and led to a huge amount of money being drained out of the industry (as so called 'dividends') instead of being invested in infrastructure repair and investment (Tory political error)

 

2.  Abolishing the very independently minded franchising and strategic leadership posts and subsuming their roles into an enlarged 'railway department' at DafT moved the goalposts about 15 pitches down the valley and ended the independence plus putting things into the hands ot people who hadn't a clue what it was all about (Labour political error).

 

3. Moving a lot of control into DafT completely messed up the franchising system because (un)Civil Servants think in typical Civil Service ways about anything and don't understand the difference between cost and value.  Plus they love dabbling in things they don't understand in order to show how clever they are (and in doing so prove exactly the opposite).

 

In the early years of the break up of BR I worked for what had become a GoCo (Government Company) where or MD worked in direct personal contact with a nominated senior person in the still tiny 'railway section;'.  The person was known to and trusted by the BRB when it existed and did not interfere in any way at ber ynd simply sticking to official remit of the company - which was basically public policy established by various Acts and Parliamentary Orders.  He did not interfere in any way with costs or the way in which we did our jobs (and in fact I understand that he fully recognised that he should never do that).   A competent Civil Servant could do such a job - trouble is he's retired too,

 

So,  using a simple example,  I decided how many Drivers and Train Managers the company needed in order to cover existing work and future planned work, and the rate at which qualified staff would be needed for that future work.  And the Directors agreed the relevant budgets for that plus the training budgets.  That worked well. and it couls still work as long as DafT keeps its nose out and doesn't play with things it hasn't got a snowball's chance in a tropical rainforest of ever understanding.

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, skipepsi said:

Does anyone think there may be an opening for a national organisation to coordinate a railway service across the UK only dependent on the Treasury... 

Unfortunately, the railway in 2023 is very, very different from that which existed on 31.3.1994, the day before Railtrack became a legal entity. By comparison, the railway on 31.12.1947 underwent relatively few fundamental changes in the next 46 years, apart from adding an overall structure at the highest level, wresting decision-making from the Big Four. 

 

Privatisation split the industry into a myriad separate private companies, each with a legitimate profit-motive. They ranged from ROSCOs and TOCs to a man in a shed fixing wagons. Nearly 30 years later, inevitably mergers and splits have seen further changes. Outside parties, in addition, provide manpower for contracted work. At one time all this was under the BR umbrella. 

 

Getting all that lot under one control again would be somewhere between those two popular expressions - herding cats and nailing jelly to the ceiling. 

[skipepsi]

Although it was a tongue in cheek question, as a country we seem to lack strategic plans for many things from fixing roads to keeping the lights on. 

[Steadfast]

7 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Interesting post. As an XC user from time to time,what’s on offer to replace their 125’s which are due for the knacker’s yard shortly ? Can’t see the TPE 68 sets doing it but Avanti WC have their 221’s being replaced soon so I would think they’ll fill the vacancy.EMR also have their Meridian units being similarly displaced .Thus maybe problem solved ? But I’m sure a suitable replacement problem will arise to confuse the issue.All too simple…not.

Nothing to replace the HSTs. Expect rejigging of Voyager diagrams from what I've heard. Likewise on GWR, nowt to replace the 2+4 HSTs, just short form other services to free up stock.

 

Grand Central rumoured to be taking 10 Avanti 221s to replace the 180s. The 222s at EMR aren't compatible with the 220/221s, so would need to be run as a separate fleet if the did get taken on by XC.

 

Jo

[jjb1970]

5 hours ago, skipepsi said:

Although it was a tongue in cheek question, as a country we seem to lack strategic plans for many things from fixing roads to keeping the lights on. 

 

Yes, the state of the railways is a symptom of a wider malaise. There are many causes, but when I worked in electricity and if I look at my experience in maritime there is a common issue of government bureaucrats with either no experience as practitioners, or a short period at junior level, in the segments their departments are  trying to control having a belief they know so much more than industry. Ignorance in itself wouldn't be that bad if they took a hands off approach and government was concerned with regulating safety and environmental protection, anti-trust issues etc, or if they were willing to seek appropriate advice but that doesn't seem to be the case. Most of the 'expertise' I've observed at DfT is the 'I read it in a book or on wikipedia' sort, some of it can actually be funny if you ignore the possible consequences.

[BR traction instructor]

No one can claim Western capitalism to be the ideal solution in the majority of cases, it is simply the least worst. Allowing the bean counters in to subdivide, especially public services, simply allows them to tally/charge for every item/service possible. It doesn't mean that anything will be good, just that it will cost more. Each small cog in the wheel then tries to safeguard its own interest/agenda, charge others at every opportunity and adds to the creation of an inward looking, expensive, litigious & mediocre entity, when what is required is exactly the opposite...a joined up/outward looking, forward thinking and excellent system. Even worse the vast pool of experienced railway staff trained/accumulated under BR appears to have been squandered, disenchanted, paid off and scattered to the four winds...well done to the bean counters 🙄.

I don't see any alternative other than a 'not for profit' solution to providing decent public services.

 

BeRTIe

Edited May 13, 2023 by BR traction instructor

[Jim Martin]

On 11/05/2023 at 08:35, Oldddudders said:

I think some customers imagine that on day 1 they will find a whole new cadre of staff at station level and driving the train.

 

I recall someone commenting on the Guardian website that Northern had only been "renationalised" for a month, and already new trains had been delivered.

[Wheatley]

5 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

Even worse the vast pool of experienced railway staff trained/accumulated under BR appears to have been squandered, disenchanted, paid off and scattered to the four winds...well done to the bean counters 🙄.

In fairness most of them will have retired by now anyway. I started in 1987, my 7 years on the front line  under BR were just enough time to learn how to screw any given situation for overtime whilst swerving anything I didn't particularly want to do, and I'm one of the more experienced ex-BR staff left in my own organisation. All the BR senior technician and planning types retired long ago and those of us left are largely working with systems and equipment which were pipe dreams in their day. I can remember lugging a watering can full of water up and down box steps more than once to top up a boiling over DMU, now the DMU tells you it's poorly long before it gets to that state and even rings Control for you (sort of). 

[woodenhead]

23 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Interesting post. As an XC user from time to time,what’s on offer to replace their 125’s which are due for the knacker’s yard shortly ? Can’t see the TPE 68 sets doing it but Avanti WC have their 221’s being replaced soon so I would think they’ll fill the vacancy.EMR also have their Meridian units being similarly displaced .Thus maybe problem solved ? But I’m sure a suitable replacement problem will arise to confuse the issue.All too simple…not.

 

16 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Nothing to replace the HSTs. Expect rejigging of Voyager diagrams from what I've heard. Likewise on GWR, nowt to replace the 2+4 HSTs, just short form other services to free up stock.

 

Grand Central rumoured to be taking 10 Avanti 221s to replace the 180s. The 222s at EMR aren't compatible with the 220/221s, so would need to be run as a separate fleet if the did get taken on by XC.

 

Jo

It would seemingly make more sense to send the 221s to XC and Grand Central have the rather more spacious 222s.

 

But GC being open access can purchase what they like, if they have got to the 221s from the leasing company first then it sounds like more pain for XC if they have to use 222s to supplement their rolling stock.

 

With the Government now in full save money mode, there isn't going to be a new fleet for XC anytime soon I would imagine so it will be back to cast offs as it was in BR days until the HSTs could cascade.  If XC were to upgrade, it would certainly be bi-mode IEPs.

[Ian Hargrave]

45 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

It would seemingly make more sense to send the 221s to XC and Grand Central have the rather more spacious 222s.

 

But GC being open access can purchase what they like, if they have got to the 221s from the leasing company first then it sounds like more pain for XC if they have to use 222s to supplement their rolling stock.

 

With the Government now in full save money mode, there isn't going to be a new fleet for XC anytime soon I would imagine so it will be back to cast offs as it was in BR days until the HSTs could cascade.  If XC were to upgrade, it would certainly be bi-mode IEPs.

XC being the Cinderella of the TOC’s won’t be going to the ball then.So what else can they have from the recycling 

bin ? Or cut a few more services perhaps ?

 

[woodenhead]

35 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

XC being the Cinderella of the TOC’s won’t be going to the ball then.So what else can they have from the recycling 

bin ? Or cut a few more services perhaps ?

 

Well in the past it would have been more HSTs as the cascaded off express duties onto secondary services, but that logic went out with BR when it because new new new with each franchise change (except for Northern).  We're back to make do and mend, so it's going to be 222s and/or Mk5s with a loco I imagine.  The only possible new stock would be an extension of IEP, any chance to place an extra car into a 220/221 with a panto is long passed.  For an IEP I would argue they should try for tri mode (panto/diesel/battery) or got full quattro and throw in a third rail shoe too.  They should consider something that can go anywhere and use electricity where possible and also be fit for the LSWR route from Waterloo to Exeter.

[6990WitherslackHall]

When I go to York, I always go Brid - Seamer (or Scarborough) - York which requires me changing trains at Seamer or Scarborough. I go this way as although it's more expensive than going Brid - Hull - York, it's quicker plus sometimes you get hauled/pushed by a Class 68 so...

Edited May 13, 2023 by 6990WitherslackHall

[lmsforever]

Privatisation  has only worked in a few cases one of these is Chiltern it has a good management and the workforce go that extra yard to achieve a service that helps to grow passenger numbers .But they are a minority in a large number that dont seem able to come up with even a basic service ,the wcml is bedevilled by an absolutely chronic lack of trains that actually are available to passengers I tried to book a seat to Glasgow in February but gave up because of a useless website and this is the group who are supposed to run HS2  lord help us. But the lines worked by last chance groups seem to be prospering  our goverment select the right people to run them maybe this is an omen .  I think back to BR days with sectors this worked until poloticians messed everything up maybe if certain people takeover this will happen again.Its a real shame what has happened in the north as they seemed to have found a good pattern of services until it went wrong .Who will be next ideas on a postcard  to the ministry !

 

[Jonboy]

The thing rarely mentioned about Chiltern is the effect of the constant adding of new housing estates within its catchment area, many of which are then advertised as being within xx minutes commute of London.

[Railpassion]

Chiltern benefited from total route modernisation and a very unusual franchise arrangement. No other route has since managed total route modernisation. Virgin West Coast had a shot at it. 

[Boris]

17 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

When I go to York, I always go Brid - Seamer (or Scarborough) - York which requires me changing trains at Seamer or Scarborough. I go this way as although it's more expensive than going Brid - Hull - York, it's quicker plus sometimes you get hauled/pushed by a Class 68 so...

Checking before you travel though, TPE have managed the full service out of Scarborough on only one day since the 1st December!

 

Low availability on the 68 sets seems to have been a problem recently as well, to the point that we've been down to 3 car 185 sets rather than 6 cars in recent weeks as well, not ideal now the line is getting to peak season.  The Scarbados station gateway project has been approved recently but I'd really like to see the proposed Seamer upgrades go through as well, its placed to make an amazing park and ride for Scarborough, although with the franchise ending I wonder what will happen to the proposed half hourly service on Fridays, Saturdays and Mondays from the end of the year?