TPE loses contract

[jjb1970]

I find ride quality has gone downhill on quite a few modern-ish trains. Some of the Class 350s are dire, and the newer Velaro Eurostar trains have a worse ride quality than the original sets.

[BR traction instructor]

...wonder whether any managers will learn the lesson of not making overtime compulsory in order to run all of their services 🤔

 

BeRTIe

[spamcan61]

6 hours ago, 4630 said:

I appreciate  @spamcan61  from what you’ve said that you don’t follow the 1:1 scene, but the issues affecting TransPennine Express, which are multi-layered, have been building over several years and for context, in my opinion, pre-dates the start of the COVID epidemic.

 

 

Yeah fair enough I wasn't pointing the finger at TPe particularly as being responsible, just morbidly interested as a taxpayer to see how this goat rodeo pans out.

[4630]

2 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Yeah fair enough I wasn't pointing the finger at TPe particularly as being responsible, just morbidly interested as a taxpayer to see how this goat rodeo pans out.

 

From the taxpayer point of view - unhappily I would suggest, 'But it was ever thus' is I think the correct phrase.

 

 

[Geep7]

4 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

That seems to be a common feature of CAF stock, it's been reported on the Caley sleepers and their various DMUs and EMUs.

Maybe they're too used to building stock for a wider gauge?

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, 62613 said:

The wife and I had a ride on one just before Christmas, Stalybridge - York and return. Whether it's the state of the track or the vehicles themselves, they do seem to yaw and bounce a lot; coming back, we were sat over a bogie in one of the coaches, and it seemed to be bottoming out on its suspension a fair bit, judging by the bangs from below. This on a train no more than about 4 - 5 years old.

 

I had exactly the same experience from Chester to Bradford, I thought it was a bogie in need of maintenance as about all I can compare it with is a MK1/2, but obviously it's a built in fault.

 

Mike.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, BR traction instructor said:

...wonder whether any managers will learn the lesson of not making overtime compulsory in order to run all of their services 🤔

Probably not. Finance gurus only understand one virility symbol - headcount - so the diagrammers will be forever under pressure to use OT & RD working to keep numbers down. 

 

Meanwhile, as drivers' salaries increase, so they see more and more reason to spend time off duty in leisure and family pursuits -  willingness to be forever at work reduces in line with need to make money. 

[woodenhead]

10 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

 I can immediately think of a route that should never have gone over to DMUs and is sufficiently self-contained - the operator has no other diesel routes/stock. Transfer the 68s + Mk5s to the Waterloo - Exeter route...

But you're just moving the noisy beasts to Waterloo, Westminster have already complained about the noise of Chiltern 68s, I don't think they want to add Lambeth to the chorus.

 

Perhaps we need a new IEP version 3rd rail and diesel....

Edited May 11, 2023 by woodenhead
your to you're - poor show Woodenhead

[BR traction instructor]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Probably not. Finance gurus only understand one virility symbol - headcount - so the diagrammers will be forever under pressure to use OT & RD working to keep numbers down. 

 

Meanwhile, as drivers' salaries increase, so they see more and more reason to spend time off duty in leisure and family pursuits -  willingness to be forever at work reduces in line with need to make money. 

 

...I had the roster clerk standing next to me saying that a new 3x12 hr roster (4 days a week off) had only been agreed to on the understanding that we were on call during our days off. I asked how much we were being paid to be on call and he replied nothing. In that case don't bother asking me to work beyond my rostered hours was my response. No rocket science there.

 

BeRTIe

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

 

...I had the roster clerk standing next to me saying that a new 3x12 hr roster (4 days a week off) had only been agreed to on the understanding that we were on call during our days off. I asked how much we were being paid to be on call and he replied nothing. In that case don't bother asking me to work beyond my rostered hours was my response. No rocket science there.

 

BeRTIe

Call off rest is a US idea and widely used although I know thajt some roads pay a standby fee to cover call-off days.  The way it has been used by certain boil-in-the-nag private sector managers is simply to cut out spare days and agree with the local ASLEF reps that the consequential open tuens would be covered by Rest Day working.  What these naive clowns didn't realise is that while offering it as part of an big increase in basic pay there were also creating a disincentive for Drivers to volunteer for Rest Days worked. (and of course Hidden 18 limits also need to be applied but the 'children' probably didn't understand them anyway).  

 

ASLE&F were in negotiating terms absolutely brilliant because they undoubtedly realised exactly what would happen.   So the union abandoned its long standing anti-Rest Day working policy and allowed TOC level negotiation to achieve large pay increases paid for by the operator effectively selling the spares to finance the pay increase and then adding a bit more to get staff side agreement.

 

But two managers - who BR probably would never have put into such senior jobs without the necessary training in lesser posts - made their names by doing exactly that and the quickly moved on elsewhere.  Duly leaving in their wakes a brewing mess of a shambles and cancelled trains.  One of them was even daft enough to be led by staff reps into making Sunday driving turns completely voluntary - yet more cancellations because working a Sunday was no longer an economic necessity following a big increase on baisc pay.  Oddly various people have seen fit to promote some of them even further and it's hardly surprising that they have become rather distrusted by the union side when it comes to more recent negotiations.

 

But the trouble is that DafT - as explained above like anything which keep sthe headcount down so  in a number of TOCs Driver numbers are being kept below establishment  - craziest way to runa railway I'b ve ever heard off.

 

All of this is one read son why I, and many rerired senior railway managers, think GBR is a load of nosense and a train service reliability shambles waiting to happen.  as long as the naive ignorants in DafT carry on in their blinkered manner - which they will - GBR will make it even worse as these lunatics gain even greater control of the asylum.

 

As for TPE - Nigel Harris is spot on with his comment.    Nobody can recruit and train Drivers in les than 6-9 months and they can't even do that of DafT won't sanction the costs.

[BR traction instructor]

This is the reason in a nutshell, for me, when Rishi Sunak asks why so many 50-60 year old early retirees won't rejoin the workforce...too many d@@kheads in managerial positions trying to take the p@@s Rishi...I'm perfectly happy sitting drinking beer by the sea thankyou and don't need the money or the aggravation...over to you. On top of this my 50-60 year old (very experienced) friends still on the railway are desperately trying to retire early too.

 

BeRTIe

Edited May 13, 2023 by BR traction instructor

[JeffP]

Been waiting to get 68 haulage, I'd better do York Scarborough before its too late.🙂

[Butler Henderson]

Given the branding of "northern by Arriva" became "NORTHERN" and "Virgin"   "LNER" with no major livery change, I  would expect the only immediate change will some change to "TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS" applied branding, allong obviousl with the removal of the First logo etc.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Butler Henderson

[ColinK]

I do wonder if the franchise will be split up, eg Mcr Scotland services to Avanti (yes I know its First), others to Northern and Cross Country.

[Legend]

9 minutes ago, ColinK said:

I do wonder if the franchise will be split up, eg Mcr Scotland services to Avanti (yes I know its First), others to Northern and Cross Country.

 Not sure that Avanti might not be next in the firing line !

[Reorte]

25 minutes ago, ColinK said:

I do wonder if the franchise will be split up, eg Mcr Scotland services to Avanti (yes I know its First), others to Northern and Cross Country.

I've sometimes wondered if it would make more sense for TPX and Northern to be the same company, so they (somewhat) operate in the same area but with local and express services. If nothing else it would give more of a career path for staff without changing companies, but a level of integration of both sorts of service might be good. But I freely admit I know very little about running a railway company, so I won't be unhappy if that idea gets torn to shreds.

[spamcan61]

41 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 But I freely admit I know very little about running a railway company, 

 Unfortunately that also seems to apply to some of those actually running railway companies. apart from the 'freely admit' bit !

Edited May 12, 2023 by spamcan61

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 But I freely admit I know very little about running a railway 

Which puts you in good company among those who are paid to do so.

 

SNAP

Edited May 12, 2023 by Oldddudders

[62613]

20 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I've sometimes wondered if it would make more sense for TPX and Northern to be the same company, so they (somewhat) operate in the same area but with local and express services. If nothing else it would give more of a career path for staff without changing companies, but a level of integration of both sorts of service might be good. But I freely admit I know very little about running a railway company, so I won't be unhappy if that idea gets torn to shreds.

I think that was an original aim when the franchises were re - let, but for some reason it never went ahead. To a degree, it would make sense; at the moment, the Manchester - Huddersfield stoppers are run by TPE for instance, which to me has always seemed ludicrous.

Edited May 12, 2023 by 62613

[Reorte]

22 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Which puts you in good company among those who are paid to do so.

 

SNAP

Well no-one's paying me to do so, so at least I don't have to try to pretend I know what I'm on about in order to keep my job! (well, at least when it comes to railways)

[woodenhead]

Splitting the business does look good on paper.

 

But Avanti aren't exactly a shining example of how to run a railway, and it's operated by First (at the moment).

 

Northern is already a sprawling TOC covering a massive area that includes several large cities and a lot of countryside in between.  Perhaps along the way what might be needed are some more regional operations North West, North East, East with Trans Pennine providing the services that cross them all (as it does now) but the electric services up the WCML do seem to be seperate to all this in some manner.

[Mike_Walker]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Northern is already a sprawling TOC covering a massive area that includes several large cities and a lot of countryside in between.  Perhaps along the way what might be needed are some more regional operations North West, North East, East with Trans Pennine providing the services that cross them all (as it does now) but the electric services up the WCML do seem to be seperate to all this in some manner.

Which is exactly what we had back in the early days of privatisation, north east and north west although there was no TPE then.

[Talltim]

TPE's issues date back to the beginning of the franchise. The requirement for loco hauled was in the specs, and the DfT also inisted on splitting the unit procument into two (Hitachi and CAF), meaning they have had three types of traction to train on.

But then First have deiced to massively reduce route knowledge too (to save money on training, in theory). Many of their routes now have 2 crew changes,  meaning three point of crewing failure instead of one and a crew often can't continue to cover a missing crew because they don't sign the road. Then the crew for the last section might be available but with no train.  Add in the usual reliance on RDW and when Covid hit training went right out the window. I've also seen reports of staff being available, but their trains being cancelled anyway.

They are now stuck in a situation where they can't afford to take staff off driving, to train new drivers, so the new drivers can't pass out. Staff morale has suffered so drivers have gone elsewhere and the situation has just got worse. TPE got rid of their original director when First realised what was going wrong, but with franchises now being management contracts the current director had his hands tied by the Dft (Treasury).

There's a hope the OLR, despite being DfT, actually have a bit more autonomy. They seem to have on East Coast.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Talltim

[jjb1970]

I think the core issue is getting the industry out of the grip of DfT, while some of the TOCs are not especially impressive the real issues point towards DfT (and by extension, the government) being the real problem.

[Wheatley]

44 minutes ago, 62613 said:

I think that was an original aim when the franchises were re - let, but for some reason it never went ahead. To a degree, it would make sense; at the moment, the Manchester - Huddersfield stoppers are run by TPE for instance, which to me has always seemed ludicrous.

 

I'm not sure of the reason at the moment but at least part of the problem has been the DfT trying to jam spread the stops between Northern and TPE to free up a path (an all stations stopper anywhere between Manchester and Leeds takes up two express paths), then changing their minds after the timetable bids have been submitted and finding out that in the meantime Northern has redeployed the stopper's crew and unit somewhere else to cover something else the DfT had asked them to do. 

 

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Northern is already a sprawling TOC covering a massive area that includes several large cities and a lot of countryside in between.  Perhaps along the way what might be needed are some more regional operations North West, North East, East with Trans Pennine providing the services that cross them all (as it does now) but the electric services up the WCML do seem to be seperate to all this in some manner.

Northern is already effectively run (at an operational level) as 3 regions and has been since 2016. West and Central have been under the same Regional Director for a long time and is in effect the old North West Regional Railways with the Merseyrail bits hived off, East covers everything in the old ER south of York and North East has always operated in isolation from the other 2-3.