DCC obsolescence

[Roger Sunderland]

Should have mentioned- you’ll need a Zimo (even the MX600 at £25 will work) or an ESU decoder - poorer quality decoders don’t have an uncoupling function built in. Personal experience says it’s easier to fit and set up with a Zimo decoder.

[Pandora]

HM7000 App for Android went live on the Hornby website yesterday.

If searching Google Playstore, a search  term is HMDCC.

Check your search return  carefully so as not confuse to the proper DCC digital App with the DC analogue App.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Pandora

[Tallpaul69]

On 15/06/2023 at 22:01, Roger Sunderland said:

Should have mentioned- you’ll need a Zimo (even the MX600 at £25 will work) or an ESU decoder - poorer quality decoders don’t have an uncoupling function built in. Personal experience says it’s easier to fit and set up with a Zimo decoder.

Hi Roger,

I have just found out about this uncoupler, and I am investigating it for my layout which is about to be fitted out for Kadee operation.

I take it then that the Hornby TTS decoders or even their new HM7000s wont operate this Precimodels unit?

 

On another point, any thoughts on how you get kadee operation on a curve. I have this situation at the end of a platform on my main lime where I think magnets will just uncouple all my trains instead of just particular ones?

 

Many thanks,

Paul

[Nigelcliffe]

3 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Roger,

I have just found out about this uncoupler, and I am investigating it for my layout which is about to be fitted out for Kadee operation.

I take it then that the Hornby TTS decoders or even their new HM7000s wont operate this Precimodels unit?

 

 

That depends on what you mean by "operate".    

To move the motor requires a function output, almost all decoders offer that.  

 

Then you get into the more subtle stuff...   

The motor in the uncoupler is meant to be run very briefly, so one needs a function output which runs for a short period of time, then goes off again.  This can be done with a non-latching key on the throttle, but is better handled in the decoder.    Some decoders can do this.  Some can't. 

 

And there's the "Kadee Shuffle", or the "Coupling Waltz".  For the coupling to operate, the loco needs to backup a little before pulling away.   
This can be done manually by an operator - stop, reverse, couple of speed steps, stop, operate coupling output Function, forwards, apply a couple of speed steps, stop, turn off coupling output Function. 
Or it can be done automatically in some decoders - stop, operate "uncouple function".  Watch it all happen.  Turn off "uncouple function".  

 

The automatic uncoupling Waltz and has worked on Zimo decoders for a very long time.  I've used it for almost 15 years.  

  

 

 

4 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

On another point, any thoughts on how you get kadee operation on a curve. I have this situation at the end of a platform on my main lime where I think magnets will just uncouple all my trains instead of just particular ones?

 

Put the magnets below the track (need bigger than the "in-track" type - the O gauge ones will often work), and arrange them so they can be swung out of the way when not required.   

 

 

- Nigel

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Put the magnets below the track (need bigger than the "in-track" type - the O gauge ones will often work), and arrange them so they can be swung out of the way when not required.   

 

 

- Nigel

Rapido have a neat electrically operated kadee uncoupler which seems to feature a rotating magnet and only needs to be set or unset, no current is drawn whilst not moving.

https://rapidotrains.com/detail-parts/railcrew.html

They were to be available in the UK but I don't know whether that has happened.

[BachelorBoy]

On 25/05/2023 at 01:22, spamcan61 said:

I agree, indeed as I've said before, I don't think Hornby innovate often, but what they can be very good at is taking niche/prototype ideas and turning them into viable mainstream products at relatively reasonable prices. I'd put Live Steam and Bluetooth decoders in that category, TTS decoders as well for that matter. 

 

As modish but rather annoying people say: hashtag-realitycheck

 

Live steam was very impressive, but is not a good example. Obviously it wasn't a viable mainstream product as Hornby dropped it.

 

Steampunk was innovative ... in the sense of doing things in new ways, rather than inventing something new ... but the niche was possibly too small for Hornby to make it a viable product, or Hornby's products disappointed buyers. Probably a bit of both. Either way, I think Hornby squandered the Bassett-Lowke brand name.

 

And then there's the fiasco of the Titfield Thunderbolt (and other locos/trains associated with films) .  An interesting niche, but the products never appeared.

 

And lest we forget: the massive success of the London Olympics, and the utter failure of Hornby's innovative attempts to produce viable mainstream Olympic products at relatively reasonable prices that people actually wanted to buy. The Olympic range was supposed to make two million pounds of profit ... but Hornby lost a million quid instead. 

 

And back to control systems for models: Zero 1 was an interesting step forward, but it failed too.

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

 

 

On another point, any thoughts on how you get kadee operation on a curve. I have this situation at the end of a platform on my main lime where I think magnets will just uncouple all my trains instead of just particular ones?

 

 

It's worth noting that Kadee don't sell curved uncoupling magnets. 😉

 

Also consider that prototype practice, is to avoid the planned joining or separation of vehicles/units on curved track so far as is practicable. In my signalling days, I remember occasional "fun and games" splitting a set off the first train (a 9-car Class 159 formation) in the down line at Honiton, and that's a platform road with a 60mph limit, so by no means that tight a curve!

 

In model terms, for uncoupling, you are in with a chance, but not even that on "train set" curves, and only with an electro-magnetic uncoupler (or a permanent one mounted on a drop-flap), so that the train can be positioned before activating it. 

 

Coupling (in my experience) can only be achieved with manual assistance using a plastic rod, and doing it reliably at the first attempt is an acquired art that gets harder as the curve gets tighter.

.

Tension locks, Sprat & Winkles, and many other couplers, go up or down to couple/uncouple. Kadees work by moving sideways so it's a completely different game. Unless the pair to be uncoupled can be guaranteed to "hit" the magnet exactly the same, every time, irrespective of whatever permutation of vehicles, be they bogie, rigid, long, short, light, or heavy, might be involved, the result will be similarly inconsistent.

 

That's somewhat akin to discovering that there were actually two Holy Grails and finding both of them!

 

My own "Kadee journey" began as a member of a group that had been using them since the 1960s and all their layouts were designed with uncouplers sited only on straight track and at least six inches from the commencement of any curve. That was Lesson One; Lesson Two was never to use fixed permanent magnets in running lines!

 

Sorry, but my best advice, if you want to achieve wholly dependable operation, with all trains, is to redesign that bit of your layout. 

 

John

 

  

Edited September 13, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Roger Sunderland]

14 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Roger,

I have just found out about this uncoupler, and I am investigating it for my layout which is about to be fitted out for Kadee operation.

I take it then that the Hornby TTS decoders or even their new HM7000s wont operate this Precimodels unit?

 

On another point, any thoughts on how you get kadee operation on a curve. I have this situation at the end of a platform on my main lime where I think magnets will just uncouple all my trains instead of just particular ones?

 

Many thanks,

Paul

As far as I’m aware, and Nigel pretty much confirms this, only Zimo and ESU decoders will perform a “Kadee shuffle” on the press of one function button. Hornby decoders are, I’m afraid, no where near sophisticated enough to do this. I agree with Dunsignalling’s comments regarding Kadees and curves ie.  don’t.

[Nigelcliffe]

9 minutes ago, Roger Sunderland said:

As far as I’m aware, and Nigel pretty much confirms this, only Zimo and ESU decoders will perform a “Kadee shuffle” on the press of one function button. Hornby decoders are, I’m afraid, no where near sophisticated enough to do this. 

 

Its not only Zimo and ESU.    Other decoder maker's I'm aware of which include the Shuffle/Waltz include Train-O-Matic, Doehler & Haass, and (no longer available) CT-Elektronik.    I am sure my list is incomplete, there will be more.  

 

 

 

[melmerby]

I've found that trying to couple on even a gentle curve relies greatly on how rigid the vehicles are.

Short wheelbase 4 wheel wagons are pretty good, however trying to couple a Hornby Prairie tank to a rake of coaches is very hit and miss and depends mainly on the amount of sideplay on the pony trucks on the loco, which on the Hornby one is quite a bit.

 

I ended up redesigning the track to get a straight section to couple on.

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Its not only Zimo and ESU.    Other decoder maker's I'm aware of which include the Shuffle/Waltz include Train-O-Matic, Doehler & Haass, and (no longer available) CT-Elektronik.    I am sure my list is incomplete, there will be more.  

 

 

 

From limited experience with them (a couple of MTC21 connection), I have found that Train-O-Matic seem to be pretty decent decoders and are priced competitively.

[NFWEM57]

Fascinating thread.  Now officially an OAP, I think I am fairly safe with my wired ESU DCC set up..!  Who know, the major DCC manufacturers and the NMRA might agree a wireless standard one day..!

[tingleytim]

On 13/09/2023 at 09:06, Roger Sunderland said:

As far as I’m aware, and Nigel pretty much confirms this, only Zimo and ESU decoders will perform a “Kadee shuffle” on the press of one function button. Hornby decoders are, I’m afraid, no where near sophisticated enough to do this. I agree with Dunsignalling’s comments regarding Kadees and curves ie.  don’t.

              On my “Templecombe Lower” (00) I’m looking for something better than hands of god to uncouple pilot locos (a pannier tank and an Ivatt tank - both Bachmann).  The pannier has a Zimo sound chip (145 036).  The Ivatt has a Zimo no-sound chip (145 037). I wish my piloted trains could stop on straight track but they have to stop on a curve of about 3 foot radius.  Might Preci uncouplers work if the curve has this largish radius?  Is the problem reduced if the cotton is pulling towards the outside of the bend?  It’s very difficult to stop piloted trains at a precise position; this precludes some other uncoupling methods and makes the Preci system seem very attractive. 

              One other problem; separating the rear coaches of two trains that leave joined together and then are separated (in full view!) to go their opposite ways.  Equip one of the coaches with a decoder? 

              Any advice very welcome on Preci or other systems.  West Hill Wagon Works have an uncoupler coming “this year” for their Hunt magnetic couplings; a possible alternative?

              Many thanks for any responses.

[melmerby]

4 minutes ago, tingleytim said:

It’s very difficult to stop piloted trains at a precise position;

Why?

I can stop a train within a few mm manually (or automatically)

[tingleytim]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Why?

I can stop a train within a few mm manually (or automatically)

The piloted trains have a loco at the front and a loco at the rear operated separately.  If there is an easy way of both locos being operated together in a consist (or other method?) then I would be interested to know how.  I tried hard some time back using NCE’s consist instructions to pair locos but without success and need a minimum of seven pairings for the operating sequence.  Perhaps it’s time to have another go, maybe searching RMWeb.

[Oldddudders]

A decent DCC system includes provision for consisting, although no doubt some systems make it more lugubrious than others. Since the full DCC standards were designed in the US, where multiple locos on a train are an everyday feature, this is hardly surprising. Once consisted, the pair (or more) will operate together until deliberately 'unconsisted'. The issue that always arises is where the locos have unmatched speed-curves, and bunching or dragging spoils the effect. Sadly even locos from the same batch often display different speeds for a given throttle value, and need CV-attenuation to overcome this. Time-consuming but very worthwhile.  

[RAF96]

Simplistically there are 3 ways to consist. In the decoder, in the controller or by software such as Railmaster, etc. Each has their own pros and cons and not all methods are possible as they can be hardware related.

[Roger Sunderland]

3 hours ago, tingleytim said:

              On my “Templecombe Lower” (00) I’m looking for something better than hands of god to uncouple pilot locos (a pannier tank and an Ivatt tank - both Bachmann).  The pannier has a Zimo sound chip (145 036).  The Ivatt has a Zimo no-sound chip (145 037). I wish my piloted trains could stop on straight track but they have to stop on a curve of about 3 foot radius.  Might Preci uncouplers work if the curve has this largish radius?  Is the problem reduced if the cotton is pulling towards the outside of the bend?  It’s very difficult to stop piloted trains at a precise position; this precludes some other uncoupling methods and makes the Preci system seem very attractive. 

              One other problem; separating the rear coaches of two trains that leave joined together and then are separated (in full view!) to go their opposite ways.  Equip one of the coaches with a decoder? 

              Any advice very welcome on Preci or other systems.  West Hill Wagon Works have an uncoupler coming “this year” for their Hunt magnetic couplings; a possible alternative?

              Many thanks for any responses.

I have to say I’ve never tried Preci couplings on a curve so I wouldn’t like to comment. If you’re using Kadee couplings I wouldn’t have thought there’d be a problem separating coaches. Kadee uncouplers work reasonably well, although their electro magnetic one works best. The Rapido trains electric uncoupler also works very well- again though probably not on curves.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Since the full DCC standards were designed in the US,

It started with the Märklin digital system which was designed by Lenz.

Lenz confirmed to the NMRA there were no Patents that would hinder it's adoption as a standard and it was developed from there.

[Oldddudders]

50 minutes ago, melmerby said:

It started with the Märklin digital system which was designed by Lenz.

Lenz confirmed to the NMRA there were no Patents that would hinder it's adoption as a standard and it was developed from there.

I think most people are well aware of that, but did Märklin/Lenz specify the requirement for consisting, the facility under discussion? 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

I think most people are well aware of that, but did Märklin/Lenz specify the requirement for consisting, the facility under discussion? 

Don't know.

I did say it was developed from there, although multiple locos were far from unknown in European rail practice.

 

 

[Ighten]

My Personal experience was that I started last spring (I think) using Hornby hm7000 system.. for a good price it introduced me to the benefits of DCC and also how sound made such a difference.

 

Now several months later and things have changed. Pretty much the first thing I fell out with was the fact (quite a major one) it won't fit most of my smaller stock or indeed mid and larger locos from other manufacturers. Indeed there are Hornby models I either can't fit it into too or there is no intention of making 6 pin sound variants. There's also the issue that 8 pin variants are quite function shy.

Profile releases also seem slow; I expect slow now because it does seem Hornby have a small team and want to keep everything in house. But sorry I'm not that patient, especially when you consider they will likely concentrate on there own catalogue first.

But it was cheap and a great introduction. 

 

Moving on to a show in autumn I came across the bargain DMG DC/DCC controller which I still use on a test layout and this immediately convinced me a physical controller is way better than having to keep looking down at a phone screen. It works perfectly has a walk around  style  control but it does have limitations. Hence the now installed powercab. 

 

My surmise with regard to that original question then is No, traditional DCC is not being replaced yet, certainly not by Hornby s offering which I think should be considered as a fantastic cheap introduction, if somewhat limited. It's big big advantage though is the ability to see and change the CVS on the fly on a screen.

Edited January 11 by Ighten

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, Ighten said:

 There's also the issue that 8 pin variants are quite function shy.

 

Presumably all 8 pin decoders are fairly function shy as there's only 8 pins.

[Ighten]

21 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Presumably all 8 pin decoders are fairly function shy as there's only 8 pins.

Hm7000 has no function mapping or for really complex lighting no swiss mapping

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

Presumably all 8 pin decoders are fairly function shy as there's only 8 pins.

Some have flying leads as well.

e.g. the Lenz Standard + V2 has an extra lead for the 4th function output and extensive mapping.

They are also good value at around £20.

 

Edit. The Gold has 2 extra leads

Edited January 11 by melmerby