ex GWR 58xx

[snowy1051]

Hi, I'm just starting to convert a Hornby 48xx 0-4-2 tankie to a 58xx. Not too difficult I know, but just how many 58's were fitted with top feed? I have pictures of  11 of them and so far only 5815 was fitted with top feed. Were there any more please and about when would top feeds have been fitted?

My era is BR early fifties. Many thanks for any info. 

[asmay2002]

I can't answer your question directly but GWR standard boilers moved around between engines and it was possible for an engine to have a top feed boiler at one overhaul and lose it at the next one.  In this case boilers would have been interchanged between 14/48xx and 58xx.

[Steamport Southport]

Without looking through every member ISTR it was rare for them to have topfeed. I think there was only about six that got it at various times.

 

Don't forget most of them were early withdrawals and topfeeds didn't start to be fitted until about 1946. Most of the class had gone by the end of 1957.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/042_5800det.htm

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

A couple here

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p320959101

 

5800

5809

And confirmation of 5815

 

Another one here.

 

5804

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p540554706

 

I'm pretty sure this info is in the Peto Register book. But it's finding my copy!

 

 

Jason

Edited July 11, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[The Johnster]

17 hours ago, asmay2002 said:

I can't answer your question directly but GWR standard boilers moved around between engines and it was possible for an engine to have a top feed boiler at one overhaul and lose it at the next one.  In this case boilers would have been interchanged between 14/48xx and 58xx.

This is because it takes less time to overhaul a locomotive than the boiler, so in order to return the poco to revenue and free up the erecting shop bay, another boiler is fitted from stock, one having been recently overhauled and certificated but from a different loco.  Where boilers were standard between classes, as those for 58xx were with 14xx, 16xx, 54xx, 64xx, and 74xx, they were kept in a pool for use by those classes, and even brand new locos did not always recieve brand new boilers; all that happened was that a number of new boilers were built corresponding to the new locos (and a specified number of spares) into the pool.  
 

Boilers built after 1936? had top feeds, which became more common as new boilers entered the pool and older ones were scrapped.  Locos that had been built with top feed boilers recieved plain ones at overhauls, and vice versa, and this continued throughout the lives of both locos and boilers.  By the late 50s top feeds were the norm, but locos could still be seen coming out of works with plain boilers.  
 

This presents a problem for modellers wishing to represent specific individual locomotives at specific times in the correct liveries and with the correct type of boiler.  Dated photographs of good provenance are best of course but not always available, and assuming, for instance, that a loco carried a top feed boiler in 1955 because it was photographed with one in 1950 and again in 1960 is probable but not certain…

 

I have this issue on Cwmdimbath with 57xx/8750 panniers, and for some locos have had to go with a best guess but be prepared to alter to the correct condition if better information comes to light.  For example, 9649 was delivered new to Tondu in 1946, in what I’ve assumed to be unlined green livery with G W R initials and an equally assumed top feed boiler, and I’ve modelled the loco in this condition, which it is reasonable to assume it ran in during  the early BR period I model, but I’ve never seen a photo of it at this time, and modelled it with my fingers crossed behind my back (which made fixing the number plates difficult…).

 

 

[melmerby]

According to RCTS, the first top feed was fitted to a 48XX/58XX in 1944 and at the time of writing (1959) "most" have received it but boilers without were still in use at this period.

 

However at this time only four 58XX were still in existence.

 

[DCB]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 Where boilers were standard between classes, as those for 58xx were with 14xx, 16xx, 54xx, 64xx, and 74xx,

The 14XX (48XX) boiler was the same as the 58XX class boiler,  A larger boiler, 3" bigger diameter, 6"  longer 1ft longer firebox fitted the  54/64/74XX classes  running 160 lbs pressure in the 54/64XX and 180 llbs in the 74XX.  The 16XX boilers were the same diameter as the 14XX but had a different firebox .    

All seemed to share the same smokebox diameter.

What I never resolved is whether the 58XX were screw or lever reverse.

14XX 54XX 64XX were screw, 74XX lever (with some 57XX motion parts) but I am not sure about 58XX. 

The GWR allowed 10% spare boilers so 9 for the 95 14/48/58XX and the earliest were built1932 so 1944 sounds about right for boilers needing major renewals to justify fitting top feeds.  ISTR  The benefit was less pronounced on the Parallel boilers than the Tapered according to K.J.Cook.

[Miss Prism]

12 minutes ago, DCB said:

What I never resolved is whether the 58XX were screw or lever reverse.

 

What is this driver sitting on?

 

[Steamport Southport]

Screw.

 

The only real difference was they weren't auto fitted which was the reason for their earlier demise. Mostly due to branch closures and the arrival of DMUs.

 

The 14XXs were seen as more useful so tended to last longer.

 

Details of individual locomotives are in the Peto book, pity they only published the three of them. Virtually a Yeadon's for the GWR. Worth picking up if you can find a reasonable priced copy. I paid about £15 for mine.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Petos-Register-Great-Western-Locomotives/dp/1871608880

 

 

 

Jason

[RodneyS]

Interesting link, thanks Steamport Southport.

I also fancied converting a Hornby 14xx into 5815 as I saw that at Swindon dump in December 1963.  It would be something a little different.

 

The weather on that day was terrible as was the photograph I took on my Brownie 127.

I've often wondered if the loco was in green or black.

Looking at one of the photos of 5815 in that link I think I can just make out what looks like lining for the green livery.

 

What do others think ?

Rodney

[Miss Prism]

I doubt any 58xx got into lined green, for the reasons Jason gives.

[Hal Nail]

On 12/07/2023 at 20:48, Miss Prism said:

 

What is this driver sitting on?

 

His backside?!

Interesting there's a battery box for atc but no wires visible, unlike the 14XXs (which were obviously therefore auto-related, not ATC).

Edited July 14, 2023 by Hal Nail

[snowy1051]

Many thanks to all who contributed info.  Greatly appreciated. 

[RodneyS]

On 13/07/2023 at 15:20, Miss Prism said:

I doubt any 58xx got into lined green, for the reasons Jason gives.

Thanks.

Looking at the photos again I think I was wrong about the lining.

Probably just a line of rivets.

This has inspired me to look out my old loco and the plates for 5815 and have a go myself.

A friend has given me some unwanted Romford wheels so I have no excuse now.

Rodney

[kevinlms]

There is a photo apparently of 5810 in Model Railway Constructor 1965 July near Cwm Prysor. It is passing an inspection trolley.

 

The photo isn't great, certainly not good enough for me to comment on. But the article is by Chris Leigh, so perhaps he can remember something about it?

[Miss Prism]

 

(I'm trying to remember the name of the photographer, but escapes me at the moment - J S Gilks?)

[melmoth]

I'm pretty sure that image is also in D.W. Southern's "Bala Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog". Originally published by Foxline and reissued by Book Law in 2014, isbn 9781909625372.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

(I'm trying to remember the name of the photographer, but escapes me at the moment - J S Gilks?)

That is the photo, but the MRC issue doesn't give the photographer.