Bank Trains (not banking engines)

[RonnieS]

I was loaned a copy of THE GWR AT STOURBRIDGE and in it is a reference to Bank Trains (not banking engines) I am not quite sure what this means? However thinking back to 1961 when my Dad was a railway shunter/goods guard I do recall a local/pick up goods referred to as "33 Bank". I could find nothing on a GOOOLE search. Maybe the more knowledgeable here may be able help

in qualifying the term?

Edited July 12, 2023 by RonnieS
ADDED IMAGE OF BOOK

[Wickham Green too]

The term 'Bank Trains' makes me think of bullion vans ................................. but I don't think that's what were talking about here !

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

The term 'Bank Trains' makes me think of...

The Northern Line on London Underground. No, it's not that, either.

[Ben B]

Might it actually be bank, as in money, trains? Given the GWR midlands location, I'm sure I've read Brum Snow Hill tunnel had a siding serving a bank vault?

[RonnieS]

Just now, Ben B said:

Might it actually be bank, as in money, trains? Given the GWR midlands location, I'm sure I've read Brum Snow Hill tunnel had a siding serving a bank vault?

I don't think so. From the book the duties of the bank train.

[Ramblin Rich]

There is a considerable climb from Stourbridge Junction up to Old Hill, and there was another very steep descent from Stourbridge Town to the goods yard (long closed). I wonder if it's anything to do with that?

Edited July 12, 2023 by Ramblin Rich
clarify

[bécasse]

I too remember hearing the expression (and probably not in connection with the WR) and certainly assumed that it referred to a pick-up goods. Its origin isn't clear to me but it could be that a pick-up goods was thought of as serving one and all, rather like a bank.

[RonnieS]

48 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I too remember hearing the expression (and probably not in connection with the WR) and certainly assumed that it referred to a pick-up goods. Its origin isn't clear to me but it could be that a pick-up goods was thought of as serving one and all, rather like a bank.

Having reread the book it appears it may have been the "odd job man "as the duties for "No 2 Bank" relate to a 12 hour shift and include station pilot, shunting local yards a, bit of pick up work etc. I think later dates may have had a  no in the duty roster? At least The Bristol area did. (I model the North Somerset line)

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, RonnieS said:

I don't think so. From the book the duties of the bank train.

Is that actuallya description of the work a description of the work?  Not very well laid out but that seems to be what it means as in bank [the] train.

 

Oh no it wasn't!!

 

From a bit of delving they were actually trip and shunting engine workings although there were assisting jobs in some of them,   in 1948 there were 16 such workings for them listed at Stourbridge Jcn although I haven't worked out how many engines would be needed to cover them.  In 1960  they were still listed as Bank Trains and had trip headcodes in the 9TXX series.  

 

It appears to be a very old-fashioned term as several of the 1948 workings start or end at 'Stourbridge Engine House' or 'Engine House' as light engine movements and the running time from there to.from Stourbridge Jcn indicates that it was the running shed.  In 1960 that entry had changed from 'engine house' to 'engine shed'

 

Oxley also had Bank trains; '33 Bank'  might refer to Oxley's 9T33 ?  Interestingly most of the Oxley bank workings - which are listed separately from exchange trips and certain other trips - don't include any timings to get an engine to or from shed.

 

The association of both with marshalling yards (Stourbridge Jcn and Oxley) makes me wonder if the term came from from an association with those facilities.  

In all my time on the Western I never came across the term although I never worked in the Black Country although i knoew plenty of e Enginemen who'd worked at Tyseley and never heard any of them use it.  So while I'm still looking for other example it appears to be a Black Country term (but I might find others eventually?)

Edited July 12, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, RonnieS said:

Having reread the book it appears it may have been the "odd job man "as the duties for "No 2 Bank" relate to a 12 hour shift and include station pilot, shunting local yards a, bit of pick up work etc. I think later dates may have had a  no in the duty roster? At least The Bristol area did. (I model the North Somerset line)

That shows the engine diagram with teh Enginemen's diagrams noted against it although it's not shown exactly what happens in teh men's working and it isn't complete annwayy as someone must have worked the light engine from Westbury to Frome for 807A to relieve it there.

 

807A was possibly took the engine on shed at Westbury at 14//15 and then either worked something else back to Frome or travelled as passenger.  However it's possible that the crews changed over in Westbury station at 14.07.    However on Saturdays the Frome men's working might have been. bot different.   As this is the engine working only the bare bones of the men's working will be shown, the detail of their work would be shown on their own diagrams.  Mentioning the turn (diagram) numbers on the engine working is only a handy reference which saves somebody having to look through lots of diagrams to find out who is covering that part of the engine turn but it also would serve as back check in teh diagrammin office that the engine has been covered by an Enginemen's diagram.

 

Ths devolves naturally from the usual way of doing things for many years where teh first part of diagramming was always the engine diagram then the crew dagrams would be done from that startong point.  Nowadays whenever possible you would try to do the two together but at least one of the computerised duagrammin systems works by doing it in the traditional way.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

That shows the engine diagram with teh Enginemen's diagrams noted against it although it's not shown exactly what happens in teh men's working and it isn't complete annwayy as someone must have worked the light engine from Westbury to Frome for 807A to relieve it there.

My guess is that the times with double lines are shed turns. 807A, for instance, hands over to a Westbury shed crew at 14:07 in modern English. Seeing the key would help, of course.

 

I can't see what this has got to do with "Bank trains" though.

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

My guess is that the times with double lines are shed turns. 807A, for instance, hands over to a Westbury shed crew at 14:07 in modern English. Seeing the key would help, of course.

 

I can't see what this has got to do with "Bank trains" though.

The time with a double is a light engine time   That was the standard way of indicating light engine times by then.

[keefer]

Maybe similar to the term 'bank staff' or 'bank shift', in that you're scheduled to be working but with no definite role i.e. you're there to cover whatever jobs need doing (which aren't already covered by regular shifts)?

I suppose it's like a Bank of hours or staff etc. that can be drawn on, when needed.

Edited July 12, 2023 by keefer

[RonnieS]

8 minutes ago, keefer said:

Maybe similar to the term 'bank staff' or 'bank shift', in that you're scheduled to be working but with no definite role i.e. you're there to cover whatever jobs need doing (which aren't already covered by regular shifts)?

I suppose it's like a Bank of hours or staff etc. that can be drawn on, when needed.

I am almost sure your interpretation is right 

[RonnieS]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Is that actuallya description of the work a description of the work?  Not very well laid out but that seems to be what it means as in bank [the] train.

 

Oh no it wasn't!!

 

From a bit of delving they were actually trip and shunting engine workings although there were assisting jobs in some of them,   in 1948 there were 16 such workings for them listed at Stourbridge Jcn although I haven't worked out how many engines would be needed to cover them.  In 1960  they were still listed as Bank Trains and had trip headcodes in the 9TXX series.  

 

It appears to be a very old-fashioned term as several of the 1948 workings start or end at 'Stourbridge Engine House' or 'Engine House' as light engine movements and the running time from there to.from Stourbridge Jcn indicates that it was the running shed.  In 1960 that entry had changed from 'engine house' to 'engine shed'

 

Oxley also had Bank trains; '33 Bank'  might refer to Oxley's 9T33 ?  Interestingly most of the Oxley bank workings - which are listed separately from exchange trips and certain other trips - don't include any timings to get an engine to or from shed.

 

The association of both with marshalling yards (Stourbridge Jcn and Oxley) makes me wonder if the term came from from an association with those facilities.  

In all my time on the Western I never came across the term although I never worked in the Black Country although i knoew plenty of e Enginemen who'd worked at Tyseley and never heard any of them use it.  So while I'm still looking for other example it appears to be a Black Country term (but I might find others eventually?)

Wow! thanks I found a 1962 BR(WR) ref so Bank Train was an official term. It appears to be trip working?

[RonnieS]

 

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Is that actuallya description of the work a description of the work?  Not very well laid out but that seems to be what it means as in bank [the] train.

 

Oh no it wasn't!!

 

From a bit of delving they were actually trip and shunting engine workings although there were assisting jobs in some of them,   in 1948 there were 16 such workings for them listed at Stourbridge Jcn although I haven't worked out how many engines would be needed to cover them.  In 1960  they were still listed as Bank Trains and had trip headcodes in the 9TXX series.  

 

It appears to be a very old-fashioned term as several of the 1948 workings start or end at 'Stourbridge Engine House' or 'Engine House' as light engine movements and the running time from there to.from Stourbridge Jcn indicates that it was the running shed.  In 1960 that entry had changed from 'engine house' to 'engine shed'

 

Oxley also had Bank trains; '33 Bank'  might refer to Oxley's 9T33 ?  Interestingly most of the Oxley bank workings - which are listed separately from exchange trips and certain other trips - don't include any timings to get an engine to or from shed.

 

The association of both with marshalling yards (Stourbridge Jcn and Oxley) makes me wonder if the term came from from an association with those facilities.  

In all my time on the Western I never came across the term although I never worked in the Black Country although i knoew plenty of e Enginemen who'd worked at Tyseley and never heard any of them use it.  So while I'm still looking for other example it appears to be a Black Country term (but I might find others eventually?)

Just received this (1961) info so at the risk of Duplicating your info. I have to thank you for pointing us in the direction of Oxley

Edited July 12, 2023 by RonnieS
duplication

[nigb55009]

"Wigan bank engine" was name used for the station pilot at Wigan North Western. During the 1980s and 90s it was officially Target 91. It worked at

Wigan NW during the evening and at night shunting parcel and newspaper vans. During the day, in the 80s, the loco was used to shunt Wigan Canal

Sidings and Prescott St Sidings as well as GKN at Douglas Bank. Occasionally trips to Springs Branch were made. In the late 80s and early 90s after the

closure of the sidings at Prescott St and GKN, Wigan bank was used to shunt long welded rail trains being repaired at Springs Branch. This also 

involved tripping wagons to and from Wigan Canal Sidings. I`m not sure what year the use  of Wigan bank ended, probably 1991 or 1992.

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, keefer said:

Maybe similar to the term 'bank staff' or 'bank shift', in that you're scheduled to be working but with no definite role i.e. you're there to cover whatever jobs need doing (which aren't already covered by regular shifts)?

I suppose it's like a Bank of hours or staff etc. that can be drawn on, when needed.

I was thinking along similar lines.  Never heard the term myself in my own railway career; we had ‘spare’ turns at Canton, a complete traincrew booking on every two hours 24/5 weekdays and every four weekends & bank hollys.  But I was familiar with the idea of a ‘banker’ as something used as a spare, kept in reserve against an unforeseen need, which is pretty much how our spare turns were used.  Not the same thing as a booked ‘bank’ diagram of course. 
 

But a pickup or factory clearance for traffic too urgent to wait for the next booked train, or a transfer clearance between yards, on a spare ‘as required’ basis with semi-dedicated loco and crew, beyond the normal ‘spare’ capacity, might fit the bill, particularly if it required and specialised knowledge or equipment beyond the normal route knowledge or equipment familiarity.  Might that be a ‘bank’ train, a service in reserve with loco and a traincrew booked to it?  Presumably, if not required, they become ‘spare’, awaiting orders.  I’d expect them to be at larger depots with sufficient resources.  
 

No idea if this right, just a suggestion.  Spare turn every two hours were more flexible, giving several sets of men available to the traincrew supervisor with varying amounts of time left on duty to be used on whatever job turns up; cover for men late on duty, rung in sick, fallen ill on duty, whatever... sent home disciplinary/sober up, relief for men from other depots ‘on their day’, anything else you can think of!

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by The Johnster

[Hal Nail]

12 hours ago, keefer said:

in that you're scheduled to be working but with no definite role

A bit like most of my bosses then.

[MR Chuffer]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

'bank staff' or 'bank shift'

I was reminded by my daughter that "bank" is a term for locum staff in the NHS. As a GP having just quit - its a sh*t job - she is applying to be Bank staff at the local hospitals so that she can work as a locum i.e. called in as required to plug staffing gaps.

Edited July 13, 2023 by MR Chuffer

[Michael Hodgson]

Doesn't sound any different from a Q path in the timetable - runs if required.

[keefer]

8 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

I was reminded by my daughter that "bank" is a term for locum staff in the NHS. As a GP having just quit - its a sh*t job - she is applying to be Bank staff at the local hospitals so that she can work as a locum i.e. called in as required to plug staffing gaps.

I think that's where I've maybe heard it from, particularly with Nurses.

[Grovenor]

10 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

- she is applying to be Bank staff at the local hospitals so that she can work as a locum i.e. called in as required to plug staffing gaps.

That will be more than a full time job then given the staff shortage!

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

a full time

To the contrary, you can pick and choose what jobs you want to do, you get paid more than salaried staff, and there is NO PAPERWORK. At the end of a 10 hour GP shift, she still has up to 2 hours of paperwork to do at home, or as the other night, 199 prescriptions to go through and process. This is why GP staffing is on its knees. 1 in 5 vacancies at the moment, 1 in 4 by the end of the decade. Forget the new staff plan, it's no point filling the bath if you've left the plug out.... The NHS is on its knees. Rant over!

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/07/2023 at 18:05, keefer said:

Maybe similar to the term 'bank staff' or 'bank shift', in that you're scheduled to be working but with no definite role i.e. you're there to cover whatever jobs need doing (which aren't already covered by regular shifts)?

I suppose it's like a Bank of hours or staff etc. that can be drawn on, when needed.

That doesn't make sense in the context of  post 1920s agreements and definitely doesn't make sense in the context of the 1942 Rostered Turn Agrreement on the GWR,

 

The use of therm 'engine house' clearly indicates a pretty early origin of these workings so possibly at one time they were used as turns which were left open (in some cases but not all I would think) to be covered by overtime or time left within a crew's day.  Clearly that would not have worked in a situation such as that in 1948 when there were 16 Bank Train workings at Stourbridge Jcn all of them containing detailed work including train times etc adding up to many hours of work which would have to be covered by booked diagrams for the simple reason there was simply too much work to cover by Spares (or the depot had an enormous number of spare turns (which it might have done but I doubt it with all booked work).

 

The expression clearly seems  - with evidence so far - to have been a Black Countryterm so presumably had its origin there back in the days of 'engine houses'.

 

On 13/07/2023 at 08:52, Michael Hodgson said:

Doesn't sound any different from a Q path in the timetable - runs if required.

But they aren't shown as Q (i.e. only runs when required) - they are all shown as booked working therefore they would be cob veed by booked diagrams for engines and enginemen plus booked diagrams for Guards.  And all of the diagrams would be included in the roster - no way round that.

 

As a matter of probably not much interest I'm the person who finally abolished Q freight train paths on the WR.