A 'Land Cruise' Train to replace main line MK1's

[johnofwessex]

The mainline MK1 fleet is getting very old which must be a threat to the long term operation of steam on the main line.

 

In addition to this the Scottish Government has certainly recognised the potential of the nations rail network as a tourist attraction in its own right.

 

So would it be possible to build some sort of 'Land Cruise' train that would be suitable for both Steam and Heritage Diesel railtours as well as 'Tourist' trains over lines like The Settle & Carlisle, Far North line etc?

 

So, big windows, seating that matches up with windows, catering, on board power, possibly 'self powered' so it has a 'get home' capability and the ability to shunt itself at destination stations rather than need to drag a diesel round.

 

Compatible with steam/electric/diesel haulage

 

Could it be done?  Its probably technically possible even if its financially 'ambitious'

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[6990WitherslackHall]

The Jacobite services have been suspended from operating by the ORR because of  "‘a couple of issues of concern' in relation to the management of the hinged door rolling stock that is used on the Jacobite service"

 

Full page here:

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2023/07/further-jacobite-steam-train-cancellations-due-to-issues-of-concern-from-orr.

 

 

I don't know if this will have any effect on WCRC's other railtours such as The Scarborough Spa Express which I've booked a ticket for.

Edited July 20, 2023 by 6990WitherslackHall

[adb968008]

Mk3’s.

 

Theres not enough money for new build stock.

anything new will need so much derogation and sign off it will never get beyond the drawing board due to cost.

 

tbh signalling systems will cause more issue than rolling stock in the future, that may be the end of it.

 

 

[6990WitherslackHall]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Mk3’s.

 

Theres not enough money for new build stock.

anything new will need so much derogation and sign off it will never get beyond the drawing board due to cost.

Mk2s would probably be better. 

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Mk2s would probably be better. 

Mk3’s have fitted most of what you would need to fit in mk2s already.

its a cost thing.

 

Theres not many railtour sets left on the mainline now, due to compliance issues with new regulations that have been enforced this year.

Though if you have enough money, it seems you can circumvent them.. Belmond, Royal Train, Royal Scotsman, etc.. seem unaffected.

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Mk3’s have fitted most of what you would need to fit in mk2s already.

its a cost thing.

 

Theres not many railtour sets left on the mainline now, due to compliance issues with new regulations that have been enforced this year.

Though if you have enough money, it seems you can circumvent them.. Belmond, Royal Train, Royal Scotsman, etc.. seem unaffected.

 

 

 

 

Correction!

 

if you have enough money you can maintain your trains to a standard the ORR finds acceptable.

 

WCR have been sailing close to the wind for some time - the ORR have made their feelings about the use of Mk1s well beyond their design life crystal clear in the past few years and are expecting operators policies and standards to address the ORRS concerns

 

Also if you take the Belmond Pullman it clientele tend to find remaining seated preferable to roaming the isles and thus coming in close proximity to the train doors thus lessening the risks - plus there are awful lot of stewards on board to ensure doors are not tampered with. Belmond also has active plans underway to fit central door locking to its fleet (unlike WCR who are just moaning about the cost and trying to get continual exemptions)

 

 

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Mk2s would probably be better. 

 

Not that many Mk2s about these days - most of the non air-con ones were scrapped with the arrival of BRs 2nd Generation DMUs

 

The air con Mk2s were mostly scrapped following the delivery of the arrival of the Voyagers and Pendalios

 

The Mk3 is the last coach which is (was) available in any quantity (ex GEML and ex HST rakes)

 

 

[Guest]

While not fitting steam traction so well, if Trans Pennine were to get rid of their Mk5 sets, they might make decent future- proofed rolling stock for railtours & tourist land cruises. Given the state of funding for national rail, no TOC are likely to be allowed to take them. 
 

LNER are likely to get rid of their Mk4s as/when they receive new rolling stock that they’ve gone to market for. That’s another alternative. Wales are already using some & the open access services from Wales, Stirling and North West have planned to use them. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Guest

[Wickham Green too]

As has been pointed out elsewhere ..... who wants to sit in a hermetically sealed aircon vehicle where you can't hear or smell the steam loco on the front ? ☹️

[Nearholmer]

Or even the diesel, or just feel somehow connected to the outside world.

 

I rarely if ever travel by train simply for the joy of travelling by train any more, and that is very largely because of the hermetically sealed business.

 

There is presumably a market for comfortable, air-conditioned, well-fed, and firmly sealed leisure travel, but how that overlaps with the market for travelling behind steam locos, I don’t know.

[Wickham Green too]

10 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... There is presumably a market for comfortable, air-conditioned, well-fed, and firmly sealed leisure travel, but how that overlaps with the market for travelling behind steam locos, I don’t know.

The aroma of a steam loco is probably of secondary importance to the bucket bouquet of the champagne for many firmly sealed in their hired attire.

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Theres not many railtour sets left on the mainline now, due to compliance issues with new regulations that have been enforced this year.

Though if you have enough money, it seems you can circumvent them.. Belmond, Royal Train, Royal Scotsman, etc.. seem unaffected.

 

 

 

I understand that everyone apart from WCRC had given a date by which they would be compliant with the regulator allowing them to continue running in the meantime.  However unless WCRC have now given a date then they are going to be acting in defiance of regulations and against the flow of the other companies who have agreed to make the necessary changes.

 

Everyone is affected, it is how you work with the regulator that makes the difference.

[Reorte]

All sounds rather a pity, a big part of the appeal, as well as not being sealed in, is being on a train where things are simple and hands-on, like opening the doors, and where the entire thing doesn't feel like a lump of plastic spat out of a 3D printer.

[phil-b259]

18 minutes ago, Reorte said:

All sounds rather a pity, a big part of the appeal, as well as not being sealed in, is being on a train where things are simple and hands-on, like opening the doors, and where the entire thing doesn't feel like a lump of plastic spat out of a 3D printer.

 

There is nothing in there’s which prohibits manually opening doors for Charter operations - but it is a requirement that they come with a robust form of central locking

 

Equally there is nothing which prohibits the use of opening windows in train carriages - the openings must just be designed such that it’s very difficult to place part of one’s body out of them (e.g. ‘hopper style)

 

The main issue is that new build coaches (even to a tweaked Mk1 design with enhanced doors, windows and collision resistance) would be very expensive (particularly as no modern operator is going to be remotely interested in such a design) and the charter train sector simply doesn’t have the cash flow to support it.

Edited July 21, 2023 by phil-b259

[Colin_McLeod]

14 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Mk2s would probably be better. 

 

The RPSI acquired a fleet of Mk2s twenty years ago in 2003 with some more over the years up to 2015.  These were retrofitted with electronic door locks etc in compliance with modern railway requirements. They have been painted in RPSI green livery which is based on the UTA livery that was used in the last days of steam up to 1970. These coaches are used for steam tours on the NIR and Irish Rail systems.

 

 Pictures are on the first link. (Scroll past the locomotives)

 

The second link is a list giving details of the fleet.

 

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection

 

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/stocklist-carriages-north

[phil-b259]

12 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

As has been pointed out elsewhere ..... who wants to sit in a hermetically sealed aircon vehicle where you can't hear or smell the steam loco on the front ? ☹️

 

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Or even the diesel, or just feel somehow connected to the outside world.

 

I rarely if ever travel by train simply for the joy of travelling by train any more, and that is very largely because of the hermetically sealed business.

 

There is presumably a market for comfortable, air-conditioned, well-fed, and firmly sealed leisure travel, but how that overlaps with the market for travelling behind steam locos, I don’t know.

There is nothing to stop an operator switching off the air con and installing hopper type windows into M3, Mk4 or even potentially Mk5 coaches.

 

That would allow some of the exterior sounds you crave to be heard inside the train.

 

Fully opening drop lights (or any window design which allows body parts to be put outside the train) are of course a no-no and it’s quite likely that once central door locking is fitted to Mk1s, mainline operators will be told to fit interior door opening mechanisms and prevent drop lights from being lowered.

 

Of course with the Mk4 and Mk5 coaches having powered doors they are going to need to have a diesel generator bought along for the ride as modifying the doors to manual operation isn’t as feasible as replacing the windows.

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

The RPSI acquired a fleet of Mk2s twenty years ago in 2003 with some more over the years up to 2015.  These were retrofitted with electronic door locks etc in compliance with modern railway requirements. They have been painted in RPSI green livery which is based on the UTA livery that was used in the last days of steam up to 1970. These coaches are used for steam tours on the NIR and Irish Rail systems.

 

 Pictures are on the first link. (Scroll past the locomotives)

 

The second link is a list giving details of the fleet.

 

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection

 

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/stocklist-carriages-north

Unfortunately most Mk2s have long since scrapped meaning that in terms of the UK, charter train operators will have to jump straight from Mk1s to Mk3 (or later) stock if they need to update their rates.

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi there,

 

Anyone wanting to ride in a Mk1 with open windows to 'smell' the steam engine can still do so on heritage lines at 20mph.  I'd have thought that to a certain demographic that is one of their primary attractions.

 

In contrast, anything travelling on the mainline is sharing tracks with other services operating at 100+ mph.  Given the vastly better crashworthiness of a Mk3 it does not surprise me that there is nervousness in the industry at Mk1s still being allowed on the mainline.  Though I can see certain derogations could be allowed over some routes (for example the Jacobite) where the majority of the running is over single track lines at limited speeds.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Legend]

I’m not sure I’d want new rolling stock, mk2s or Mk3s running with vintage steam locos . To me the whole train has to be vintage or the overall effect is ruined .  What we are trying to recapture is the majesty of steam, travelling in compartment coaches . While I love Mk3s and find them very comfortable compared to a Turbostar etc , they are not appropriate for steam haulage . I want mk1s (or big 4 ) coaches .

 

I don’t know what the ORR found when they inspected the WCRC Jacobite operation . However I do think the cancellation of these services is a massive over reaction and is doing the Scottish Tourist Industry considerable harm . Yes , of course Health and Safety is paramount but let’s get a sense of perspective here. How many people have fallen out the Jacobite from dodgy door locks ……….answer none . Yet this valuable tourist operation is suspended for a week . If I was a shop owner , restauranteur in Mallaig I’d be really annoyed ! 

[Wickham Green too]

17 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

... Given the vastly better crashworthiness of a Mk3 ...

B@@gger the crashworthiness - just make sure the TPWS isn't switched off !

[birdseyecircus]

Was there a proposal a few years back for a rake of mk3 coaches to be paired up with Tornado and based on the Severn Valley?

I recall the idea was abandoned. 

 

Paul

[frobisher]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

If I was a shop owner , restauranteur in Mallaig I’d be really annoyed ! 

 

Or glad of the week off... Well actually no, the number of people who come in on the Jacobite compared to the normal drive in tourist trade is tiny.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

 

 

I don’t know what the ORR found when they inspected the WCRC Jacobite operation 

This

 

https://orrprdpubreg1.blob.core.windows.net/docs/P-KB-14062023-West-Coast-Railway-Company-Ltd-prohibition-notice.pdf

 

https://www.orr.gov.uk/monitoring-regulation/rail/promoting-health-safety/investigation-enforcement-powers/our-enforcement-action-date/prohibition-notices/2023

 

2 hours ago, Legend said:

However I do think the cancellation of these services is a massive over reaction and is doing the Scottish Tourist Industry considerable harm . Yes , of course Health and Safety is paramount but let’s get a sense of perspective here. How many people have fallen out the Jacobite from dodgy door locks ……….answer none . Yet this valuable tourist operation is suspended for a week . If I was a shop owner , restauranteur in Mallaig I’d be really annoyed ! 

 

A few years ago someone (ironically a train enthusiast who had recently got a job in the industry) was decapitated when leaning out of a stoplight at Balham in South London.

 

The ORR were crystal clear - such an event must NEVER happen again and the requirement for charter train operators to have enough on board staff to police travellers emphasised.

 

As it happens the Jacobite does have a problem with this because of the Harry Potter mania where many tourists are eager to stick their heads out in the Glefinen Viaduct area to get selfies…

[KeithMacdonald]

15 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

As it happens the Jacobite does have a problem with this because of the Harry Potter mania where many tourists are eager to stick their heads out in the Glefinen Viaduct area to get selfies…

 

Not a problem at all - they just need to fly over in a Ford Anglia instead.

Then they can hang their whole body out the window.

 

 

Mind you ... could be a business opportunity for someone, with a fleet of Ford Anglia, all in a Harry Potter livery.

But, sadly, "Anglia" no longer appears on the models of cars for Ford on Autotrader.

And the ones on classic car sites are asking silly money numbers.

https://www.carandclassic.com/list/21/anglia/

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

43 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

Or glad of the week off... Well actually no, the number of people who come in on the Jacobite compared to the normal drive in tourist trade is tiny.

Based on my own observation in late August 2021 ,I have to agree. Two of us made the return trip from Rannoch by Scotrail 156,arrival at approximately 13:30. Our 4 car was well patronised and most I saw headed straight for local hostelries or eating places,as did we to have a leisurely lunch before return.The Jacobite influx was sparse on that day by comparison .Many of its passengers are one way,either being deposited or collected by coaches as part of a tourist package deal. 
 

TBH,it’s great that The Jacobite runs.BUT the scenery is IMHO better viewed from the dmu…..the conductor/guard even gives a charming little commentary as you traverse Glenfinnan viaduct ,Harry Potter & the Bonnie Prince included. A tolerable snap with your mobile can be taken without need to stick one’s neck out too.

     And…..whisper it softly…it’s a damned sight cheaper .So sorry WCRC.

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Ian Hargrave
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