WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[adb968008]

But it doesn't make sense.

 

Anyone gong to court, is advised to do so on the basis of being prepared to lose as well as win.

 

its not exactly WCRCs first legal rodeo, and they didnt end favourably either.

Plus they were aware of the outcome in event of failure would be the revokation.

 

so theres no unexpected outcomes.

 

But so far, no plan B is apparent.

 

In the haste of many to project their displeasure of wcrc, Ive not seen anyone actually stop and rationally actually ask why no plan B ?.. this is a business afterall, it exists to make money.

 

it could be simply what it is… no plan B, no more railtours and a refocus of the business to other diverse activities. I could imagine WCRC being a prolific restoration and hire business of locos to preserved lines for instance, in addition to its route learning, staff piloting, thunderbird, stock move business etc.

 

We dont know how much the mk1 railtour stock hire adds to its bottom line, it simply could be..not enough. After Wootton Bassett the south went from steam oasis to steam desert.. WC occasionally had 2 a day, and 7+ a week out of London… 2 rakes based at Southall. Those days dried up.. obviously it didnt stand up economically afterwards… they only have a dozen or so a year with steam-on from London now, The last 5 years was a pretty much diet of 61306 on Tuesday night summer circuits.

 

They do have some stock with cdl, so they arent totally flat footed, and WHL has used Ian Rileys locos which are Air braked… so that base could well be covered….
 

But at least for now, unless theyve been cdl’ing in secret in the dark.. thats definitely it… those hoping lsl will step in may be dissapointed.. they might be compliant but they dont have that much ready to go… maybe WHL could be pacers in 2024 ?

 

Edited January 12 by adb968008
Edited to keep the peace.

[ruggedpeak]

57 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

lets see what the trigger for the revocation was, have West Coast tried it on again, has there been another transgression this week or is this ORR just stamping its authority on events?

The trigger was the court ruling, which made it very plain what the situtation was. I don't think reference to "ORR just stamping its authority" is appropriate in the circumstances or in relation to a safety regulator dealing with a company with an less than ideal safety culture.

 

If ORR were to allow the exemption now after the judgement and someone got hurt, it would be the ORR in the dock explaining how they allowed WCR to operate witout CDL. after such a clear cut judgement from a High Court Judge. The risk assessment process around this seems very clear. And then there is the media pile in when the WCR back catalogue of not seeing eye to eye with authorities and near misses and incidents comes to light.

 

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

In the haste of many to project their hate of wcrc, Ive not seen anyone actually stop and rationally actually ask why no plan B ?.. this is a business afterall, it exists to make money.

This is offensive and ridiculous.

 

No one is projecting hate, they are expressing their concern and opinion of a company that has not put safety at the forefront of its operation as is demonstrable by ongoing safety failings and failed legal disputes with safety authorities, as well as their attitude to those who have more expertise than they do.

 

Why is Plan B our concern, it is not ours or yours? If they have one then it should involve improving their inadequate safety performance, culture and attitude. If not then like all outfits who think the law does not apply to they should cease operating. I have little concern for the fate of WCR, I have a lot of concern for their customers and third parties who might be put at risk. The JR case put forward was so weak I am struggling to understand how it went ahead, the Judge even had to explain to WCR that saying random unevidenced stuff in the court room leads to it being ignored.

 

Think about Wootton incident, 30 seconds or so was the difference between a SPAD and a mass casualty/fatality incident with an HST going through a loaded set of Mk1 carriages. Then look at WCR's response to that. Let's stop pretending WCR are the victims here, the Graun website is a better place for faux victimhood. WCR made all these decisions themselves. They had choices and made the wrong ones.

Edited January 12 by ruggedpeak

[Chris116]

I note that as of 1140 today WCRC are still taking bookings for the Jacobite on their website. 

[adb968008]

26 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

I have little concern for the fate of WCR, I have a lot of concern for their customers and third parties who might be put at risk.

 

 

theres nothing wrong with that, and I dont dispute that.

But (and honest question), why is it your concern ?.. are you working for the ORR by chance ?

 

However there are a lot of people out there who really just dont like wcrc, and come across as having no interests in the rail industry other than carrying a camera… they are far more likely to spout online than managerial rail industry professionals (who if they are, mostly are posting anonymously).

 

This is a model railway forum, its not an ORR board room, so discussion from those outside the industry should be reasonably expected, tolerated, and ideally those in the industry can educate.

 

But there is a mix of legitimate concern, bias and just outright dislike of wcrc from some here, and whilst some are clearly in the industry, others arent (myself included), and in some cases (not all), it simply comes across as bile (other forums / facebook are even worse) , with apologies to those who are talking constructively.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by adb968008

[Reorte]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

However there are a lot of people out there who really just dont like wcrc,

WCRC have largely brought that on themselves.

[john new]

21 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

I note that as of 1140 today WCRC are still taking bookings for the Jacobite on their website. 

Which is entirely acceptable within the ORR rules if for the short term they use their Mk2 stock assuming that is CDL fitted. Whether the punters will then be disappointed by coaches that don't look like those from the Harry Potter film will probably depend on how much of a true film buff they are. I suspect most pax won't notice, or care, but that consideration is one for WCRC to evaluate, not only for the W Highland but also general tours - how many of their passengers really want opening windows to hear the locomotive (enthusiasts) and how many just want a day out train ride with or without silver service meals?

 

Edited January 12 by john new
Punctuation corrected

[ruggedpeak]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

theres nothing wrong with that, and I dont dispute that.

But (and honest question), why is it your concern ?.. are you working for the ORR by chance ?

 

However there are a lot of people out there who really just dont like wcrc, and come across as having no interests in the rail industry other than carrying a camera… they are far more likely to spout online than managerial rail industry professionals (who if they are, mostly are posting anonymously).

 

This is a model railway forum, its not an ORR board room, so discussion from those outside the office should be reasonably expected, tolerated. If your an industry professional, then be professional and educate.

 

Tin foil hat time. Last time I checked you are not a mod and it is not for you to decide what is posted on here.

 

If there is anything factually or technically incorrect or demonstrably biased in my posts then do feel free to highlight it or challenge it based upon your railway, safety or management expertise. I have educated if you had read my posts and thought about them. For example I mention the weak court case, and question how that went forward given it was so weak, and that that decision has led to the situation being considerably worse for WCR than it needed to be. That is management education, based upon learnings from serious corporate failings like Boeing, BP etc. Again had you read my posts you would have seen it.

 

Had you bothered to do even the most basic research before posting it would be pretty clear that I am not working for the ORR. I will let you figure that out for yourself. 

 

And so what if people do dislike WCR, given the circumstances that is entirely understandable. Personally I'd question the ethical standards of anyone who thinks this is an appropriate way to conduct business. Unlike many people I am not prepared to remain silent when I see people being put at risk through poor judgement, poor attitudes to safety, arrogance, incompetence or whatever. That is exactly why we had Grenfell, the Post Office horizon issue, tainted blood etc.

 

I will comment on it as I see fit until those who have the right to stop me do so (i.e. in this case the RMWeb Mods), so feel free to report my posts. And yes, it is a model railway forum but you may not have noticed this is the section about the real world railway. If it is a problem for you why are you commenting here?

[ruggedpeak]

4 minutes ago, john new said:

Which is entirely acceptable within the ORR rules if for the short term they use their Mk2 stock assuming that is CDL fitted. Whether the punters will then be disappointed by coaches that don't look like those from the Harry Potter film will probably depend on how much of a true film buff they are. I suspect most pax won't notice or care but that consideration is one for WCRC to evaluate, not only for the W Highland but also general tours - how many of their passengers really want opening windows to hear the locomotive (enthusiasts) and how many just want a day out train ride with or without silver service meals. 

Same rules as in any consumer situation, book using a credit card for protection in case it goes wrong.

 

Unless WCR are trading whilst insolvent or it is provable they can't deliver the service (unlikely as there is CDL stock around) then there is nothing wrong with this legally. At present there is no evidence to suggest either situation is the case, so they can take bookings.

 

Barring any more unforeseen cock ups or starting more fights with regulators then the Jacobite will probably run.

[Reorte]

17 minutes ago, john new said:

how many of their passengers really want opening windows to hear the locomotive (enthusiasts) and how many just want a day out train ride with or without silver service meals?

If you just want a train ride without a silver service meal and aren't that bothered about what you're sitting on or what makes it move then surely it's rather cheaper just to get the ordinary service train.

[nightstar.train]

WCRC lost the judicial review just before Christmas. I do wonder if the ORR gave them two working weeks to present a realistic plan to fit CDL to their carriages. With all the bank holidays etc this has now expired and they haven't presented a plan, and so the exemption they have is withdrawn. Afterall the ORR is allowing other operators like Belmond (both the British Pullman and Royal Scotsman) to continue to operate under an exemption as they have given the ORR a definite plan with timescales for when CDL will be fitted. They would have to offer the same to WCRC if they met the same criteria. 

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

As people say. (And ive seen) people dont know how to open the doors.

stewards will still be needed, with cdl, and definitely in an emergency.

 

 

Yes but not as many - plus when the train is in motion they can go round selling refreshments rather than monitoring the vestibules for people interfering with garden gate bolts!

 

Therefor to most sane companies fitting CDL actually improved efficiency and revenue generated by the opperation of the train….

 

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I do think though that cdl on its own isnt the answer.

 

It IS the answer to avoiding people opening doors while a train is in motion / away from a station

 

It also provides a means by which internal door handles can be retrofitted and drop light windows restricted to stop passengers  putting their heads outside of carriages - though I do appreciate this is not a specific ORR requirement so far.

[john new]

24 minutes ago, Reorte said:

If you just want a train ride without a silver service meal and aren't that bothered about what you're sitting on or what makes it move then surely it's rather cheaper just to get the ordinary service train.

Don’t disagree, but the steam tour market these days seems to be more about the day out behind a steam loco by non-enthusiasts of the traditional type than in former years. Regarding the Jacobite it is Harry Potter inspired for many, steam loco (tick) route over the viaduct (tick) exact steam loco from the film (can’t tick doesn’t seem to matter) so if the loco isn’t exact/doesn’t matter I doubt the coaches will other than perhaps being maroon. 
 

I like to hear the loco but when I travel on a heritage line these days many fellow passengers either shut the top light or if shut leave it shut. 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

But it doesn't make sense.

 

Anyone gong to court, is advised to do so on the basis of being prepared to lose as well as win.

 

its not exactly WCRCs first legal rodeo, and they didnt end favourably either.

Plus they were aware of the outcome in event of failure would be the revokation.

 

so theres no unexpected outcomes.

 

But so far, no plan B is apparent.

 

In the haste of many to project their hate of wcrc, Ive not seen anyone actually stop and rationally actually ask why no plan B ?.. this is a business afterall, it exists to make money.

 

it could be simply what it is… no plan B, no more railtours and a refocus of the business to other diverse activities. I could imagine WCRC being a prolific restoration and hire business of locos to preserved lines for instance, in addition to its route learning, staff piloting, thunderbird, stock move business etc.

 

We dont know how much the mk1 railtour stock hire adds to its bottom line, it simply could be..not enough. After Wootton Bassett the south went from steam oasis to steam desert.. WC occasionally had 2 a day, and 7+ a week out of London… 2 rakes based at Southall. Those days dried up.. obviously it didnt stand up economically afterwards… they only have a dozen or so a year with steam-on from London now, The last 5 years was a pretty much diet of 61306 on Tuesday night summer circuits.

 

They do have some stock with cdl, so they arent totally flat footed, and WHL has used Ian Rileys locos which are Air braked… so that base could well be covered….
 

But at least for now, unless theyve been cdl’ing in secret in the dark.. thats definitely it… those hoping lsl will step in may be dissapointed.. they might be compliant but they dont have that much ready to go… maybe WHL could be pacers in 2024 ?

I doubt WCR themselves went into this legal action without a plan B….

 

As has been highlighted they do own compliant Mk2s with CDL fittings. Yes there is the issue of needing some sort of air braking to be provided to work them - but WCR do have diesels which has such facilities….

[adb968008]

25 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Yes but not as many - plus when the train is in motion they can go round selling refreshments rather than monitoring the vestibules for people interfering with garden gate bolts!

 

Therefor to most sane companies fitting CDL actually improved efficiency and revenue generated by the opperation of the train….

 

It IS the answer to avoiding people opening doors while a train is in motion / away from a station

 

It also provides a means by which internal door handles can be retrofitted and drop light windows restricted to stop passengers  putting their heads outside of carriages - though I do appreciate this is not a specific ORR requirement so far.

I would add, putting some form of concertina plastic along the internal door frames on the hinged side.

very easy to trap fingers in there… did it myself just once on a Glasgow Manchester service decades ago.. never did it twice.

 

I have wondered, if at some point an operator may install a camera(s) with mics on the end, or front of stock, or even on a bufferbeam..

Then used wifi / app to relay it along the train. Passengers in seats could then get the sound/movement senstation of the exterior of a train on their devices. It could be supported with things like Traksy / Gradients.

 

It would also be an interesting souvenir to buy download/ keep in the future, and no doubt source of considerable forum inches in diagnosis should any interesting event happen.

Edited January 12 by adb968008

[adb968008]

42 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I doubt WCR themselves went into this legal action without a plan B….

 

As has been highlighted they do own compliant Mk2s with CDL fittings. Yes there is the issue of needing some sort of air braking to be provided to work them - but WCR do have diesels which has such facilities….

many years ago in Poland, I was on the footplate of 5521 on the mainline.

it had an airpump fitted and air brake controls, but on its return trip the pump had issues.

in that scenario, they used the EU07 on the rear to create the air, and the air brake control on 5521’s footplate to manage the train.

(it certainly worked as we went in the upper 50’s !)

 

Would that practice be acceptable in the UK, where by an air brake control was on the footplate, but the air pressure came from the tail loco, rather than an air pump on the steam loco, thus using air-braked stock, with a vac loco with a through air pipe?

There certainly has been some steam on the mainline with through air pipes (i think 61994 was one), but wasnt sure if that was only for rescue purposes.

 

in the same veign, could the tail loco be the power source for cdl and thus use similar solutions of other operators ?

It means a tail loco is on every train, but not every steam loco needing a full air brake & pump system installed ?
 

How is vintrage trains doing it ? As far as I can see they are vacuum brake operation also.

 

Edited January 12 by adb968008

[Wheatley]

31 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I would add, putting some form of concertina plastic along the internal door frames on the hinged side.

very easy to trap fingers in there…

RRNE looked at that when the 308s were chopping thumbs off in the late 90s, it works on a domestic door with a consistent hinge gap but not on a Mk1 with a curved profile. It either fatigue fractures and falls off or has to be so flexible it either might as well not be there or it gets stuck in the door jamb and makes things worse. 

 

We ended up fitting a slightly larger grabable window ledge on the inside and plastering them with warning stickers. 

 

Their tendency to blow up was harder to fix. 

[lmsforever]

People were far more aware of dangers and yes they did leap off trains as they arrived but they knew the risks whereas today due to the nanny state everyone thinks someone else is going to look after them. Many young people have no idea about safety which is why my friends in the RNLI are increasingly having to rescue people who endanger their lives. But safety is being spread by people going into schools  I vis it many schools and other groups spreading the safety word .I have also met a team  from the east coast railway who have been out and about teaching safety on the railway and they do a brilliant job and the children love it.But people who are in thier twenties and thirties seem to have a very different view of life  which seems block anything they have been told to be safe .This is a fact born out by research so we have to make allowances  ,traveling on a preserved train is something that is a new experience for many .In the case of doors they need to recognise that they are different   to anything they have seen before ,which  why staff keep a watch at all times. I hope that the Jacobite keeps running as it is important to the area.

[stewartingram]

An hour ago I was musing over what would be the next big shock to our railway community. We've had the Hattons closure, the Warley show demise, what next? (We've also had the slightly mediocre Hornby announcement, but I can excuse that in their reorganisation plans). Now we have this prohibition notice to WCRC & the Jacobite. Not prohibition to the whole organisation as such, but how much does this affect that organisation? As others have said - what is next for them? Worst case would see them close down, just think what that would mean to the sector. I don't know how likely it is, they may continue without Jacobite or Mk1's. But if they do close, just imagine the impact. The loss of their rolling stock? Coaches and locos are used for other charters.  Crews? Used for other charters. Engineering facilities? I believe they used to take on contracts, not sure if the do now. And if they totally go, what happens to the stock? Sale for further use? Or scrap - perhaps even in a spiteful mood? We just don't know?

[black and decker boy]

3 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

An hour ago I was musing over what would be the next big shock to our railway community. We've had the Hattons closure, the Warley show demise, what next? (We've also had the slightly mediocre Hornby announcement, but I can excuse that in their reorganisation plans). Now we have this prohibition notice to WCRC & the Jacobite. Not prohibition to the whole organisation as such, but how much does this affect that organisation? As others have said - what is next for them? Worst case would see them close down, just think what that would mean to the sector. I don't know how likely it is, they may continue without Jacobite or Mk1's. But if they do close, just imagine the impact. The loss of their rolling stock? Coaches and locos are used for other charters.  Crews? Used for other charters. Engineering facilities? I believe they used to take on contracts, not sure if the do now. And if they totally go, what happens to the stock? Sale for further use? Or scrap - perhaps even in a spiteful mood? We just don't know?

It’s not a prohibition notice and it’s not Jacobite related.

 

it is the exemption from the Railway Safety Regulations, 1999, specifically regulation 5 that had been revoked.

 

this means that any carriages not fitted with operable CDL can no longer be used in passenger service by WCRC. This is nationwide and on all services they operate. WCRC are in effect grounded unless they have stashed some CDL fitted coaches away (or been busy fitting CDL).

[6990WitherslackHall]

Article on Rail Advent:

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/01/orr-revoke-west-coast-railways-exemption.html/amp

[Legend]

8 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

I think you may be overestimating the impact of those couple of hundred passengers have on the local economy compared to couple of thousand that come in on the cruise liners.

Nope . The Jacobite is an amazing draw , particularly to our US visitors . These people visit Lochaber , which does not have a cruise port, specifically to see this train .  Remember this is voted one of the top train rides in the world , and Scotland is up there in the Lonely Planet top 10 specifically because of attractions such as “The Harry Potter Train “. What that means is they spend one or two nights or even more in the local area in hotels, restaurants etc just to go on this train or see it cross the viaduct . Contrast this with a cruiseship arriving when fully fed. Cruisers descend in hordes , spend a few hours walking around then get back on cruiseship for more food drink , not really spending much locally . Quite a different market .

Edited January 12 by Legend

[Fishoutofwater]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Would that practice be acceptable in the UK, where by an air brake control was on the footplate, but the air pressure came from the tail loco, rather than an air pump on the steam loco, thus using air-braked stock, with a vac loco with a through air pipe?

There certainly has been some steam on the mainline with through air pipes (i think 61994 was one), but wasnt sure if that was only for rescue purposes.

 

in the same veign, could the tail loco be the power source for cdl and thus use similar solutions of other operators ?

It means a tail loco is on every train, but not every steam loco needing a full air brake & pump system installed ?

Would it need to be a loco? A generator van could fulfil the same purpose.

[6990WitherslackHall]

WCRC have just released a statement regarding the current situation. The article can be viewed here.

[Siberian Snooper]

Seems to be more of the same from WCRC.

 

 

[ruggedpeak]

3 hours ago, Legend said:

Nope . The Jacobite is an amazing draw , particularly to our US visitors . These people visit Lochaber , which does not have a cruise port, specifically to see this train .  Remember this is voted one of the top train rides in the world , and Scotland is up there in the Lonely Planet top 10 specifically because of attractions such as “The Harry Potter Train “. What that means is they spend one or two nights or even more in the local area in hotels, restaurants etc just to go on this train or see it cross the viaduct . Contrast this with a cruiseship arriving when fully fed. Cruisers descend in hordes , spend a few hours walking around then get back on cruiseship for more food drink , not really spending much locally . Quite a different market .

Not entirely accurate to say the cruise ship hordes don't spend much money or arrive not hungry. Cruise ship spend varies enormously according to the port. Escaping the ship and its food and drink can be a priority for passengers. The Norwegians claim they don't spend much as no one gets off at Bergen, but then no one goes on a fjords cruise to look at Bergen, it is for the on-ship experience of being in the fjords. However try and find a taxi or restaurant table in Funchal, Madeira when a cruise liner arrives, or get on any of the well known attractions and you will have your work cut out. The entire city changes its dynamic when the cruise ship approaches.

 

According to WCR the Jacobite brings £20m to the economy, whilst cruise passengers contribute £40m+ across Scotland according to Visit Scotland:

 

"Visitor spend
2.9 It is estimated that £40.6 million was spent directly onshore by cruise passengers and crew in Scotland in 2019, representing 0.4% of all (overnight and day) tourism spend in Scotland. This,
however, is a conservative estimate and does not include indirect and induced effects or some spend on tours booked through the cruise operator that is retained in Scotland. In addition, the contribution of cruise spend as a proportion of the local tourism economy varies significantly from port to port and their hinterlands and is estimated to be 2.54% of all tourism volume and 1.50% of expenditure in the Highlands region.4 Spend is focused in parts of the Highlands and Islands and the Central Belt. The five marquee ports accounted for £9 in every £10 spent by cruise passengers and crew in 2019."

 

https://www.visitscotland.org/binaries/content/assets/dot-org/pdf/research-insights/cruise-tourism-in-scotland.pdf

 

So cruise passengers do spend money and contribute.

 

All of which begs the question, if the train is so important to the Highlands and WCR reportedly care so much, why on earth would they waste money on expensive lawyers to engage in a futile and counter-productive JR rather than do the work required by law and just get on with running trains?

 

Edited January 12 by ruggedpeak