WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[The Stationmaster]

On 19/03/2024 at 15:41, Reorte said:

If it feels like some want to shut WCRC down it's only because  WC keep treading on toes and dragging their heels and generally giving the impression of not being a responsible operator. I said it earlier it's the job of an operator to follow the rules (they can argue against them, just as long as they follow them), and WCRC don't appear to be all that keen to do so. And whilst I'd more than happily travel on a train without locked doors (indeed, I'd prefer to) I'd have serious doubts about travelling on one belonging to a company that seems unwilling to meet the requirements - if they can't be bothered on one I'm not concerned about what are the chances that they're not bothering on one that I very much would be?

 

So it's no wonder some people appear to have it in for them.

I 'have it in' for WCRC for one reason, and only reason - they have long had a reputation of being a bunch of cowbioys when it come to ignoring even the most basic of safety management procedures;  Wootton Bassett proved that in the starkest and most frightening of ways.   Added to which they seem to think they have some sort of 'special case right' not to do what the law and the regulating authority require of them.

 

I know of several concerns in. the heritage/leisure sector (but not mainline operators) who have had a couple of visits from ORR Inspectors less than 3 months apart.  But I think WCRC are probably the only ones who have had three visits in a not much longer timescale than that.    Whatever some pf their managers have tried to do to put things right - which has happened since Wootton Bassett - they still seem to give the impression of swinging back towards their old ways;  the company is its own worst enemy

[Andrew Young]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Wheres your coaches coming from, and the crews, the paperwork etc ?

Oxley carriage sidings doesnt have many mk2’s these days.

 

if overhauling / reregistering youve not just got £30ks worth of cdl to fit, youve the same in CET toilets, and in a few years need internal handles, maybe hopper windows too… not much change from £150-200k a coach to bring back a wreck, plus the purchase cost, certification, insurance etc..

 

Railtours are being canceled as theres no stock, this operation uses 2 rakes, twice a day for six months, doesnt wcrc swap them mid season too.. so maybe 4 rakes needed, plus spares… so say 26-30 coaches to run a safe operation. (Wcrc has over 100).

 

Then youve got time, who's going to overhaul them, and how long will it take ?… 2-3 years assuming order books have space ?

Then you need a regular maintenace provision.. and a base… go on where are you going to put it ?

 

Meanwhile you need to hire staff, professionals, train them, certify them, route learning, safety etc…

 

Then marketing… lots of it, you need to create a new brand, distinct from the old, and convince people that a dead dog has returned to life, assuming they havent gone on to fill tours with alternative ideas that are waiting to steal that tourist tour space.

 

Sorry but hiring a steam loco is the easy part, unless youve got wcrc on board, or a bunch of coaches hidden in strategic reserve you need time, patience and a ton of cash… hiring 3 black 5’s is the easy part.
 

we can all play fantasy TOC, but model railways is the only way to dream this idea.

 

The barrier to enter is too high, without wcrc, even for lsl. Best chance is adhoc tours or a limited program for the next few years, or you need wcrcs help, and why would they do that ?

Bottom line is all the coaching stock operators have dragged their feet on spending on their stock, not just wcrc… they are all guilty. Unfortunately the clock ran out on wcrc and whl is a very big requirement, without a deal with the ORR this isnt going anywhere… looking online, most operators have been given 5 years from 2023 to do it… i’m surprised its that generous, but now ive read it, i’m surprised wcrc didnt go for that either, that kind of timeline with the facilities they have would probably put them in a stronger position than others.

 

Crews shouldn’t be that hard to sort. There will be some WCRC crews with no work looking for something to do! Given the choice of not getting any work this summer if they stay on a zero hours WCRC contract, or going to work for another operator with their West Highland Route knowledge then I’m pretty certain what would happen. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 21/03/2024 at 09:11, adb968008 said:

Thats the thing I suspect many are missing.

 

WCRC isnt a train company.

its a business running trains.

 

)snipped)

Not quite right there adb.  WCRC is a train operating company - just like, for example Hull Trains and the other open access operators.  But it largely restricts its business operations to the charter and excursion trains rather than providing a regular timetabled service.  'The Jacobite' is a slight exception to this in that  it is a regularly timetabled service, albeit on limited dates etc, rather than a one off excursion or charter type of operation.   

 

As a train operating company WCRC - whether they like it or not, or happen to regard regulation and various safety and managerial  procedures as bureaucratic or irrelevant - are required to comply with the law of the land the various regulations relating to the safe operation of a railway and/or to the operation of trains on a railway.  In that respect they are exactly the same as every other operating company which is running trains in order to convey passengers.

 

Beyond that, like any other open access operator, they work in a different commercial environment  from the franchised/contracted by Govt operators of passenger trains services.  But that is the only difference between them and such companies as GWR or SWR etc.

[The Stationmaster]

On 21/03/2024 at 12:14, stewartingram said:

Don't forget that WCR "own" the train paths for the Jacobite. They would have to hand back their rights to NR before they could be transferred to another operator.

It's long time since I had anything to do with the Access Conditions so things might have changed BUT there was provision fora situation where an operator could not resource its paths for those paths to be used by another operator.  

 

The question of payment for the paths was also involved in this and could, and did, make a difference.  Thus if an operator was paying for the paths and could demonstrate that they were waiting delivery of the necessary traction and rolling stock then their paths were secure.   At present WCRC would seem to not have available compliant rolling stock and might not even have a plan in place to be able to give a date by which they would have such stock.  So even if they continue to pay for the paths they might facea problem - a lot depends on what is in their Access Contract (a massive dicument - freely availableon teh 'net for anyone who is interested) and, possibly, whether or not they are paying for unused paths.

 

But if they fail to meet their contract and/or aren't paying then it is possible that NR could reasonably time through those paths for an operator who has got the wherewithal.  The Access agreement does make provision for default (on the part of either the operator or the network) and in one place it could be read to mean that non-compliant rolling stock could be covered by such a situation.   Incidentally all WCRC's train path requirements are regarded as charter trains

[Stevebr]

It’s too late for this season but the WCRC contract expires on the 31st of October 2024 after 4.5 years. It is probably time to open the route to tender so that next year can happen. Needless to say CDL should be specifically defined. Whether WCRC should be invited is another discussion.

[BoD]

12 minutes ago, Stevebr said:

It’s too late for this season but the WCRC contract expires on the 31st of October 2024 after 4.5 years. It is probably time to open the route to tender so that next year can happen. Needless to say CDL should be specifically defined. Whether WCRC should be invited is another discussion.

Forgive my ignorance, but what contract is that?  With Network Rail?

 

Given that the Jacobite has been running since Nineteen Eighty Dot I’m guessing the renewal must have happened automatically - unlike their ORR exemption - which they presumed would be automatic.

[Stevebr]

Yes it’s Network Rail. I didn’t see any auto renewal clause in the contract. The contract was signed by Andy Saunders of NR and JS from WCRC

[adb968008]

It begins..

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/petition-launched-to-get-the-jacobite-steam-train-back-on-tracks.html

 

https://www.change.org/p/get-the-jacobite-steam-train-back-on-tracks

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 21/03/2024 at 10:18, Reorte said:

although that assumes they're in decent condition and not rotting apart by now.

Last weekend I was travelling in one elsewhere (at low speed) that certainly had body panel rot. Not quite bad enough to examine the condition of the framework though.

 

On 21/03/2024 at 10:18, Reorte said:

In any case what's the line speed on the Mallaig extension?

I think it is 45mph maximum. We discussed that with a lot of explanation as to how a lower speed isn't practicable and would require rewriting the timetable for just about every line in western Scotland north of the Clyde. You'll find it from about page 8 or 9 of the thread onwards.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what contract is that?  With Network Rail?

 

Given that the Jacobite has been running since Nineteen Eighty Dot I’m guessing the renewal must have happened automatically - unlike their ORR exemption - which they presumed would be automatic.

101 pages of it…

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/s18-wcrc-directed-contract.pdf
 

page 57, Schedule 6 “Events of default” is the page some will find of interest.

is this stock fitted with CET already ? As its mentioned within (para 10, p55) as a requirement from April 1st 2023.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22 by adb968008

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not quite right there adb.  WCRC is a train operating company - just like, for example Hull Trains and the other open access operators.  But it largely restricts its business operations to the charter and excursion trains rather than providing a regular timetabled service.  'The Jacobite' is a slight exception to this in that  it is a regularly timetabled service, albeit on limited dates etc, rather than a one off excursion or charter type of operation.   

 

As a train operating company WCRC - whether they like it or not, or happen to regard regulation and various safety and managerial  procedures as bureaucratic or irrelevant - are required to comply with the law of the land the various regulations relating to the safe operation of a railway and/or to the operation of trains on a railway.  In that respect they are exactly the same as every other operating company which is running trains in order to convey passengers.

 

Beyond that, like any other open access operator, they work in a different commercial environment  from the franchised/contracted by Govt operators of passenger trains services.  But that is the only difference between them and such companies as GWR or SWR etc.

Yes but i’m Looking at it from an outsiders viewpoint.

(I dont work in the industry, so allow me some latitude of ignorance).

 

wcrc is what you say, but to the man on the street they are not selling tickets to Blackpool, London or anywhere else….

 

Virtually Every other operator (inc OA) are selling travel tickets from A to B….

They are train companies, running as a business.

They are constrained to that purpose (even if parent companies have other businesses).

They cannot cancel a train on the basis of passenger numbers that day alone.

And most get paid regardless if they run, cancel or dont care how many or how few are on board… theres no obvious business economics applied to it (though OA may may pay more attention to it).

 

WCRC are a Tourism and Leisure business, that just happens to run trains, or hire them to others to do the same (plus whatever else they do). Nothing stops WCRC tomorrow running buses or planes (except regulators of course). They are also free to schedule and cancel as they please based on business demand for that specific plan.

Wcrc simply run a business as any other “real world” business.. based on profit, loss, demand and supply without the protective bubble that most of the rail industry lives off.

For example WCRC could simply retreat from railtours, and become a loco and rolling stock hire company to preserved railways.. they aren't compelled to run railtours… SWR couldnt just unilaterally decide to close and stop Waterloo Exeter services

 

I think some here are blinkered that wcrc must conform to the industry and must operate trains… they dont*.. they can simply give it up and walk away and do something else… just because something was profitable, doesnt mean it will remain so in the future..any good business would do these maths, and in wcrcs are making a stand to fight for it, but equally it could mean ultimate defeat…

 

the saying in sales is “you can be right, and you can be dead, right.”.…Basically theres a point where you cant make a deal even if it all makes sense, and you simply have to walk away from it.

 

Thats what I mean.

 

* they do if they want to continue the current business model, but they arent compelled to stick to that business model

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

Interesting business strategy. Lost the JR to the ORR with a clear decision that the ORR is correct. The Jacobite contract expires this year and they can't run the service at all at present. Genius.

 

And now a petition has started to try and get a safety regulator to change its position on a serious safety issue that has already been examined by a High Court Judge. The petition is pretty weak effort. Worrying but not surprising in the social media age that people think safety regulations should be determined by a petition signed by amateurs. 🤣 WCRC could try and boost their credibility by publicly disowning the petition as an inappropriate way to respond to the High Court decision, but I'm guessing that won't happen. 

 

I also hear that Boeing are watching to see if this petiton works in case they can get one to overrturn the FAA restrictions on 737s.....🤪

 

 

Edited March 23 by ruggedpeak
typo

[arran]

9 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Interesting business strategy. Lost the JR to the ORR with a clear decision that the ORR is correct. The Jacobite contract expires this year they can't run the service at all at present. Genius.

 

And now a petition has started to try and get a safety regulator to change its position on a serious safety issue that has already been examined by a High Court Judge. The petition is pretty weak effort. Worrying but not surprising in the social media age that people think safety regulations should be determined by a petition signed by amateurs. 🤣 WCRC could try and boost their credibility by publicly disowning the petition as an inappropriate way to respond to the High Court decision, but I'm guessing that won't happen. 

 

I also hear that Boeing are watching to see if this petiton works in case they can get one to overrturn the FAA restrictions on 737s.....🤪

 

 

I don't think anyone's going to get Sucked out a MK1 by Explosive Depressurisation .!!!

[BoD]

4 minutes ago, arran said:

I don't think anyone's going to get Sucked out a MK1 by Explosive Depressurisation .!!!

… unless you are sitting on the toilet.

[62613]

15 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Moreover if someone invented a vacuum based CDL system that could be proved to meet the basic requirement of preventing a passenger from being able to open a locked door (however much they pull / push / bash it) then the ORR would have no issue with such a system being employed.

Anyone up for the challenge? A pure mechanical system is non - starter, I think. I'm thinking about something that works directly off the brake cylinder actuating a solenoid, with an electricomagnetic lock. Against such a system might be; why operate it off the vacuum cylinder when you can operate the lock without it anyway; and, what would happen when the vacuum is destroyed when braking? 

[ruggedpeak]

2 hours ago, arran said:

I don't think anyone's going to get Sucked out a MK1 by Explosive Depressurisation .!!!

True, but unplanned departures from aircraft or railway coaches will often lead to similar outcomes. FAA and ORR are essentially trying to achieve the same thing - ensuring that people remain in the vessel/vehicle they started in.

Edited March 23 by ruggedpeak
typo

[Artless Bodger]

Something speed related? The black cab taxis round here seem to have a passenger door lock initiated once the cab starts to move, it routinely unlocks anytime the cab stops, at traffic lights for example.

[PhilH]

41 minutes ago, 62613 said:

what would happen when the vacuum is destroyed when braking? 

In simple terms vac brakes depend on a vacuum being maintained on one side of a piston in a cylinder whilst atmospheric pressure is introduced to the other side of the piston when the brake valve is actuated.This is often referred to as the train pipe side and the chamber side. Therefore there should always be a vacuum on the chamber side of the system otherwise the brakes wouldn't work.

Edited March 23 by PhilH

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

… unless you are sitting on the toilet.

And there was, alas, the incident where someone nearly fell out. of one because when they opened a toilet door they found that there was no floor inside (not WCRC I hasten to add).

 

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

Anyone up for the challenge? A pure mechanical system is non - starter, I think. I'm thinking about something that works directly off the brake cylinder actuating a solenoid, with an electricomagnetic lock. Against such a system might be; why operate it off the vacuum cylinder when you can operate the lock without it anyway; and, what would happen when the vacuum is destroyed when braking? 

As already explained by PhilH the vacuum is not destroyed.  In fact what happens when you do destroy the vacuum - by pulling the vacuum release cord - is that the vacuum is destroyed by admitting air to both sides of the piston and the brakes release and cease to work  leaving you witha vehicle that has no brakes at all (unless it has a separate handbrake).

 

14 hours ago, BoD said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what contract is that?  With Network Rail?

 

Given that the Jacobite has been running since Nineteen Eighty Dot I’m guessing the renewal must have happened automatically - unlike their ORR exemption - which they presumed would be automatic.

(As already implied) In some respects the date of expiry of the contract is irrelevant.   What matters is what the contract contains and here the question of default, noted above by adb, and various factors mentioned in my earlier post become what matters.

 

Look at adb's most recent about what WCRC operates as then put it into the context of their Access Contract which states they area charter train operator (with, effectively, system wide Access Rights.  The WHE (West Highland Extension) they have bid for, and been granted, various paths for the running of charter trains (adb's 'commercial business' approach).   What now comes into play is whether or not they are able to provide compliant rolling stock to enable them to make use of their paths - if they can't do that it could perhaps be construed as a default on their part.  Thus the paths cease to be valid and would in consequence become white space on the graph.

 

And if there is white space there is nothing to prevent any other operator with a similar Access Contract (they do exist)  bidding into that white space provided they own , or have the ability to obtain, compliant rolling stock and suitable traction.   They might not be able to use The Jacobite name but they could maybe re-use the earlier 'West Highlander' name (which might still be owned by some residuary part of BR?) but they would run a very similar offering to the market?

 

To my mind it's not so much a question of whether or not the steam hauled operation on the WHE could continue while there is lack of progress and intransigence  on the part of WCRC but really a matter of wondering who else could run it instead of WCRC.  if the local tourist industry want this sort of train they would, I suggest, be better off spending their time searching out someone else who could do it rather than just moaning about the loss of it.

[ruggedpeak]

Exactly, those in that part of the world need to get their head around the full situation and decide whether supporting a company with a less than stellar safety record and habit of falling out with authorities rather than just doing what is required is in their best interests.

 

I think this situation has the potential to go wrong for them. The essence of the petition is that safety regulations should not be followed due to the impact on the local economy. So essentially they are saying the risk of an innocent tourist being avoidably killed or injured is acceptable relative to the loss of some of the tourist income. Is that the message the tourist businesses of the West of Scotland want to be putting out? Looks like a potential PR disaster in the making to me. We've just seen the mess many simple minded imbeciles have got themselves into commenting about the Princess of Wales being 'awol'.

 

Some of the comments on Change.org are funny, apparently no one ever fell out of a slam door ever...🤣

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, 62613 said:

Anyone up for the challenge? A pure mechanical system is non - starter, I think. I'm thinking about something that works directly off the brake cylinder actuating a solenoid, with an electricomagnetic lock. Against such a system might be; why operate it off the vacuum cylinder when you can operate the lock without it anyway; and, what would happen when the vacuum is destroyed when braking? 

You are confusing two seperate things -  braking and CDL

 

Although on trains fitted with power worked doors from the outset the doors are interlocked with the brakes there is actually no specific requirement for a retrofitted CDL system to do the same. Nor is there are requirement for the system to prevent the brakes being released and the train moving off or even that all doors are detected closed before the system can be activated.

 

in essence CDL is something operated by the train guard AFTER all doors have been confirmed closed by them / platform staff to prevent them from being opened again.

 

As such the only relevance to the braking system is that the air pipe running the length of the train provides a source of air which can be used to power the CDL mechanism.

 

Electric power supplied from Batteries / ETS or a vacuum from the vac pipe can also be used a ‘power source’ for the mechanism if so desired - it’s just that nobody has invested/ designed a backlog powered system yet while the ex BR air operated system (which could be retrieved from coaching stock being scrapped or an electromagnetic based solution as pioneered on the Hastings diesels / CIGs used on the Lymington branch  are ‘off the shelf’ solutions and are thus relatively cheap.

Edited March 23 by phil-b259

[w124bob]

22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I 'have it in' for WCRC for one reason, and only reason - they have long had a reputation of being a bunch of cowbioys when it come to ignoring even the most basic of safety management procedures;  Wootton Bassett proved that in the starkest and most frightening of ways.   Added to which they seem to think they have some sort of 'special case right' not to do what the law and the regulating authority require of them.

 

I know of several concerns in. the heritage/leisure sector (but not mainline operators) who have had a couple of visits from ORR Inspectors less than 3 months apart.  But I think WCRC are probably the only ones who have had three visits in a not much longer timescale than that.    Whatever some pf their managers have tried to do to put things right - which has happened since Wootton Bassett - they still seem to give the impression of swinging back towards their old ways;  the company is its own worst enemy

My old boss(now deceased) went to work for them after retiring as a train crew manager(ex driver) he certainly was someone who went from rule book stickler to "lets play trains", the Wootton Bassett incident was in his era as WCRC driver manager(or what ever he called himself) . In fact I know several colleagues who did or still do work for them and I always get the impression it's just one big trainset. One ex boss was a regular at driving for WCRC whilst at the sametime being the on call manager for the TOC I worked for. 

Edited March 23 by w124bob

[pete_mcfarlane]

Reading the petition hurt my brain. 

Quote

The Jacobite Steam Train which travels along the West Highland line from Fort William to Mallaig and famous for it's feature in the 2002 film Harry Potter And The Chamber Of Secrets has been suspended with immediate effect. 

 

It's also on change.org so means absolutely nothing. It's the online equivalent of writing a letter to your local newspaper in  green ink (as opposed to the ones on Parliament's website that at least can trigger some sort of parliamentary debate)

[PhilH]

33 minutes ago, w124bob said:

My old boss(now deceased) went to work for them after retiring as a train crew manager(ex driver) he certainly was someone who went from rule book stickler to "lets play trains", the Wootton Bassett incident was in his era as WCRC driver manager(or what ever he called himself) . In fact I know several colleagues who did or still do work for them and I always get the impression it's just one big trainset. One ex boss was a regular at driving for WCRC whilst at the sametime being the on call manager for the TOC I worked for. 

I have no axe to grind either way with regard to West Coast but in the interest of fairness I will say this. I was associated with LSL for five years and covered a fair few miles on the footplate out on the mainline as owners rep for them. At the time LSL were not a toc and therefore hired in drivers and fireman from both DB and West Coast. In my experience WC crews were no different than DB crews in terms of taking the job seriously and certainly did not give the impression that they were simply playing trains. We had alarms and surprises when on trips with both but both sets of crews dealt with them in a professional manner.

Edited March 23 by PhilH

[stewartingram]

Just fot clarification, about this contract that expires later this year? Can someone actually clarify this.

I assume we are talking about the train path in the timetable, that is issued by NR? WCR would have this path allocated to them (and paid for), for their sole use, so that the Jacobite can become a regular train. Just the same really as the freight operators, who have bought paths for their trains, but often only use them as required. So if GBRF have a path, but next Tuesday their freight doesn't run, Freightliner can't run a train instead,