WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, Stevebr said:

I am due to spend 3 weeks in May in the Fort William general area so have been communicating and booking  with a number of hotels/self catering establishments over the last couple of weeks.  In virtually all cases they were aware that the Jacobite wouldn't run but none seemed to think it was that great an impact. It seems that nobody has cancelled their holiday as a result of the train not running. There also seems a major uptake in interest on the service trains which are nearing capacity.  I suspect there is a negative impact on businesses in Mallaig though.  I hope all the refunds do actually happen.

Not all the visitors to the West Highlands are Harry Potter fans.  My sister-law's Ukrainian guest is one such - but she can't afford to take that sort of holiday and had to settle for Platform 9¾ for now.   Most of the tourists go there for the scenery, the history, the wildlife or to go climbing/hiking.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

(spot the elephant)

It's behind you!!!!!

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

(spot the elephant).

 

and I thought Spot was a dog!

[Morello Cherry]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Not all the visitors to the West Highlands are Harry Potter fans.  My sister-law's Ukrainian guest is one such - but she can't afford to take that sort of holiday and had to settle for Platform 9¾ for now.   Most of the tourists go there for the scenery, the history, the wildlife or to go climbing/hiking.

 

I am not sure I buy the 'all Jacobite users are Harry Potter fans' argument either. Afterall, the steam trips have been running since well before the popularity of the books and films.

 

I suspect that if you are a Harry Potter fan and you happen to be in the West Highlands then you might make a thing of it, in much the same way that if you happen to be visiting the centre of London you might go and check out platform 9 3/4.

 

Obviously, just as there are a hardcore of people who will go on holiday as an act of pilgramage to a railway or railways, so I guess it is with Harry Potter. I can remember a few years back I was sat on a train heading to Oxford and I got chatting to the guy opposite me who had flown over from the US and was super excited about going to a pub in Oxford where Tolkien and C.S.Lewis had hung out. So there are all sorts of things hardcore fans will make a pilgramage to.

 

TBH given the way JK Rowling is rapidly heading into Morrissey territory, she might blow up the Harry Potter market by herself before the summer is out anyway.

Edited April 3 by Morello Cherry

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, StuAllen said:

TBH I don’t think most passengers on the Jacobite travel on the line because it’s the West Highland Line and the spectacular views - they aren’t enthusiasts, they travel on it because of the Harry Potter connection, they want steam and coaches that look similar to those in the film (don’t forget in some of the scenes they were on open carriages it wasn’t all corridor stock.

 

I was booked on the Jacobite a couple of years ago but the journey was cancelled due to a strike, and didn’t we have time during the few days we stayed at Fort William to do the journey using Scotrail instead due to other planned activities.

 

A few pictures from our trip to Glenfinnan Viaduct the day after the strike day shows that people only care about steam.

 

The Jacobite has 7 full coaches, there were 100s of people on the hillside to take photos, but none waited around for the pair of 156’s the arrived not long after - barely half full.  There were 4 Jacobites services cancelled that week so if people wanted to travel the line then I would have expected to see the Scotrail service to have been full.

someday, people will appreciate the class 156.

They will be preserved.

They will run railtours.

They are the future of Heritage on the mainline

someday.

 

😀

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[Claude_Dreyfus]

49 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

someday, people will appreciate the class 156.

They will be preserved.

They will run railtours.

They are the future of Heritage on the mainline

someday.

 

😀

You jest, but that sort of thing happens a lot in Japan. A large percentage of tourist trains are rebuilt examples of JNR DMUs and EMUs (KiHa40/48 being probably the most common), which are known by the fantastic term 'Joyful Trains'.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyful_Train

 

Many are adapted for specific routes (big windows in scenic areas, local craftsmanship in the interiors), and prove popular. Rebuilding a couple of 156s when the time comes to run specific WHL tourist services may not he such a mad idea.

Edited April 3 by Claude_Dreyfus

[adb968008]

41 minutes ago, Claude_Dreyfus said:

You jest, but that sort of thing happens a lot in Japan. A large percentage of tourist trains are rebuilt examples of JNR DMUs and EMUs (KiHa40/48 being probably the most common), which are known by the fantastic term 'Joyful Trains'.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyful_Train

 

Many are adapted for specific routes (big windows in scenic areas, local craftsmanship in the interiors), and prove popular. Rebuilding a couple of 156s when the time comes to run specific WHL tourist services may not he such a mad idea.

Multiple units are popular worldwide for heritage and tourist use on the mainline.

Eastern Europe has oodles of them, as found in South America etc also.

 

The UK is lagging behind in unit preservation, but things like the wcrc episode bring the day nearer that units become the sensible answer as alternatives like steam, vb, mk1’s become less viable.

 

Thats why big window, high space, polarising units like 142s will be attractive in the future.

 

When it comes to making mk2’s safer, maybe look to New Zealand, and what they did to our older stock..

mk2 FO 3394…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_British_Rail_Mark_2_carriage#/media/File:Metlink_SW_3394_at_Masterton_Station.JPG
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_British_Rail_Mark_2_carriage#/media/File:SD_masterton.jpg
 

When other countries can do this with our cast offs, you have to wonder why we are unwilling to try… I guess we have too much money and can afford this kind of waste, where as others havent as much, and so cannot afford to waste, hence come up with innovative solutions… but I guess whos money is being wasted, and is the person wasting it the owner of that money… its easy to blow someone elses credit card… and when you dont have a credit card, you need an eye for a bargain and a keen mind.

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Thats why big window, high space, polarising units like 142s will be attractive in the future.

 

 

 

Yes but ride quality cannot be ignored. From that point of view the Sprinter fleet are a far more sensible proposition than a Pacer when it comes to 2nd gen unit.

[TheSignalEngineer]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yes but ride quality cannot be ignored. From that point of view the Sprinter fleet are a far more sensible proposition than a Pacer when it comes to 2nd gen unit.

And they make a terrible squealing noise on tight curves due to grinding off the flanges and rail head. Weren't they banned from the Esk Valley and other lines for that?

[adb968008]

26 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yes but ride quality cannot be ignored. From that point of view the Sprinter fleet are a far more sensible proposition than a Pacer when it comes to 2nd gen unit.

Weve already established the UK populace has no sense, thats why they need regulating to save them from themselves.

 

A pacer will be “that train my parent complained about as a kid”… a Sprinter.. no ones heard of it..

 

So a Pacer is the 2040’s legendary flying scotsman… sadly… passengers will await the squeal, bounce and then cheer… that may last a decade or so before the ORR clamps down on road vehicles being used on the railway… then a whole new thread will appear here.

 

Weve already seen what an 87 can do to a 142, but a mk1 is less safe apparently… and 2x 142s are in mainline use, more may follow.

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

21 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Weve already established the UK populace has no sense, thats why they need regulating to save them from themselves.

 

A pacer will be “that train my parent complained about as a kid”… a Sprinter.. no ones heard of it..

 

So a Pacer is the 2040’s legendary flying scotsman… sadly… passengers will await the squeal, bounce and then cheer… that may last a decade or so before the ORR clamps down on road vehicles being used on the railway… then a whole new thread will appear here.

 

Weve already seen what an 87 can do to a 142, but a mk1 is less safe apparently… and 2x 142s are in mainline use, more may follow.

 

But if the primary selling point is a ride through some pretty countryside then whether something is famous (or infectious) is irrelevant to most people. 

 

The LSL Pacers are very much a case of Hoskins wanting to play trains rather than them being ideal as the way forward while those which have entered Preservation on heritage lines is largely due to the owners selling them dirt cheap / donating them as a way of avoiding to have to pay to scrap them rather than them being ideal units for use on such lines*

 

Pacers are also banned from some of the most scenic lines in the country - most 15X based units are not!

 

 

* Restored loco hauled four wheeled coaching stock also tends to ride badly - the difference between that and a Pacer is that its (1) usually fitted with very comfortable and deeply sprung seating plus (2) its usually of the compartment format so there is no need to be stood up as it runs along.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

But if the primary selling point is a ride through some pretty countryside then whether something is famous (or infectious) is irrelevant to most people. 
 

 

if that were true, then this whole thread wouldnt exist, neither would wcrc as a tourist business, as they are providing a product any normal train can already provide…

The public want a product that isnt normal, as normal they can do anytime… being different is the USP.

 

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The LSL Pacers are very much a case of Hoskins wanting to play trains rather than them being ideal as the way forward while those which have entered Preservation on heritage lines is largely due to the owners selling them dirt cheap / donating them as a way of avoiding to have to pay to scrap them rather than them being ideal units for use on such lines*

 

Pacers are also banned from some of the most scenic lines in the country - most 15X based units are not!

 

 

* Restored loco hauled four wheeled coaching stock also tends to ride badly - the difference between that and a Pacer is that its (1) usually fitted with very comfortable and deeply sprung seating plus (2) its usually of the compartment format so there is no need to be stood up as it runs along.

all stock is sold cheap, scrap is the very nature of cheap.

if there was perceived value, it wouldn't be scrapped.

 

its what the owner makes of the scrap object that defines its future value.

 

Top Gear single handedly made the Morris Marina valuable by destroying them… i’d argue thats the car equivalent of a 142.

Germans use 4 wheeled heritage stock on the mainline, indeed a lot of Europe does….

whats worse is some have wooden bench seats too, verandahs and no doors !… thats actually the selling point.

 

creature comforts is a British thing, on those they will sell you schnapps to numb the pain, here a 142 tour would be with fish and chips, served with a glass of champagne, with a challenge not to get any of it on the floor as you crossover Crewe… in 20 years it will be a novelty that people pay for… I remember arguments in the 1980’s saying no one would ever ride a preserved mk2… and here we are, dead without them.

its a funny old hobby, but its a generational thing…. Tbh I suspect more than a few here would secretly ride a Pacer over Glenfinnan, just once, if it was offered… Even Sheffield Park caved in to diesels, eventually… a Pacer someday ?.. a Sprinter.. thats just Accrington Stanley… ask the public to name two diesel trains, it will be the HST and a Pacer.

 

its about the USP, and a Pacer is distinctive… a 150 vs a 197 isnt very different.

 

when it comes to EMUs how the Arterio has been kept from the public gaze is anyones guess… its a mess as big as the Prasa Afro4000’s and the NS Fyra.

 

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

I think Pacers can be jolly things, and on decent CWR the ride was more than adequate - stretches between St Davids and Newton Abbot for example. It was P&C that tended to trigger loss of composure, I felt. Some longitudinal seating helped the unique ambience. Gimcrack construction avoided any real sense of quality, but when the South West was woefully short of trains, the Pacers provided a service of sorts.

[black and decker boy]

I think the reality with Pacers is starting to bite with a few of those preserved now being stripped, up for sale or heading for scrap.

 

Yes LSL have restored a couple for novelty trips but how many others are going to get the same treatment.

 

at least with LHCS you can swap vehicles and locos to retain a service.

 

sprinters could work out in the medium term but U.K. doesn’t have a great record in mainline running of preserved units (certainly since 1994) but sooner or later we may run short of 1960s built locos to run up our scenic lines.

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

I think the reality with Pacers is starting to bite with a few of those preserved now being stripped, up for sale or heading for scrap.

 

The hobby has always eaten its young, thats never changed.

 

i’m sure the SVR regrets scrapping panniers in the 1970’s, and a few groups might of wished saving more Panniers and less Bullied's from Barry, even today an 8F has gone without a trace for just a firebox, several other steam locos exist in frames and webpages only.

 

The diesel era has completely ignored its emotional roots and is more than happy to trade diesels for scrap, mainline use or even conversion to something else, whilst overlooking favourites based on condition… theres no sincerity there… 56097 is becoming a 69.

 

What will make Pacers last long is volume. More scrapped = more spares = longer overall life, things like the CoBo, D8233 will always struggle as theres no rusting container in the dark corner of some yard full of spare bits… same logic is why the hobby is full of dull as ditch water J94’s instead of Jintys… cheap and available, several decades later theres not as many as there was at the start, but will probably out last working Bulleids someday.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[Legend]

Is this an April Fool ? Seriously pacers on Fort William to Mallaig . How to  lose the market in one go 

[adb968008]

50 minutes ago, Legend said:

Is this an April Fool ? Seriously pacers on Fort William to Mallaig . How to  lose the market in one go 

Back in the early 1980’s I recall a fight nearly breaking out when someone suggested bringing a class 40 to Bury.

Along the lines of “weve only got a Western and a Warship because no one else wants them” and “Diesels should live on the other side of Buckley Wells crossing”.. (BR).

The problem with over my dead body statements, is quite often the proposal is accepted.

 

Its probably safer I dont win the lottery, I like pacers and havent been to FTW for sometime, they have cdl and it looks like theres some spare paths available..

😀

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[adb968008]

I heard this rumour last week, and it seems its become a reality…

Monday and Tuesday next week, operated by LSL FTW-Mallaig

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U07998/2024-04-08/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U07999/2024-04-08/detailed

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U08000/2024-04-08/detailed
 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U08001/2024-04-08/detailed

 

😀

37667 leading the ecs today…

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U07997/2024-04-03/detailed#allox_id=0

I wonder how many Harry Potter fans will show up to see this ?…

 

This is the test those rooting for LSL are waiting for… is a Scotrail 37 and mk3’s a sellable product to Mallaig, as reality is that and a Pacer is all LSL currently has spare… is it a jolly train, test train, railtour, a way of sticking the knife in, who knows… But whatever it is the ORR/NR can tick a box that says someone else can run a compliant heritage train up there, even if later it was seen that no one wanted to ride it. (my Mossel Bay comment re Knysna comes to mind).

 

(url link to Andrewstransport smug mug page).

 

No sign of a southbound working yet.

 

 

 

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[adb968008]

the Midland Pullman has booked workings WHL trips 28th May and 18th June, but then 3 x in August, 2x September, 4x October, 1x November. ..

 

whats more interesting is the Midland Pullman has duplicate dates to different destinations on Sept 21st.. how it can do a FTW-Mallaig turn (as part of a 3 day trip) ,  whilst running Newport to Durham will be interesting… even if they ran a different set of stock on the Mallaig dayout, and it ecs’d from FTW on friday night 2030 to Newport for 5am, did a Newcastle spin and back for 2230 it’ll still be doing well to be back at FTW for Sunday 9am, cleaned, fueled and serviced to bring the other trip south…

 

two MP HST sets ?

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

all stock is sold cheap, scrap is the very nature of cheap.

if there was perceived value, it wouldn't be scrapped.

 

its what the owner makes of the scrap object that defines its future value.

 

 

You miss the point - thanks to increased environmental awareness scrapping things is actually pretty expensive these days as potential contaminants have to be contained and anything which cannot easily be recycled ends up being subjected to the landfill tax.

 

Thus if you are a leasing company wanting to get rid of rolling stock then selling it on for a token amount or donating it will make the company accountants very happy.

 

Selling it overseas (and leaving someone else to deal with disposal) is another tactic that accountants like and will have plyed a part in sending HSTs to South America.

 

 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

if that were true, then this whole thread wouldnt exist, neither would wcrc as a tourist business, as they are providing a product any normal train can already provide…

The public want a product that isnt normal, as normal they can do anytime… being different is the USP.

 

 

I was speaking on a general basis not about the West Highland line where Pacers are not permitted anyway.

[adb968008]

24 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

You miss the point - thanks to increased environmental awareness scrapping things is actually pretty expensive these days as potential contaminants have to be contained and anything which cannot easily be recycled ends up being subjected to the landfill tax.

 

Thus if you are a leasing company wanting to get rid of rolling stock then selling it on for a token amount or donating it will make the company accountants very happy.

 

Selling it overseas (and leaving someone else to deal with disposal) is another tactic that accountants like and will have plyed a part in sending HSTs to South America.

 

 

Second hand American stock is certainly not cheap.

Reusable value is very high in the US.

 

Try looking at a s/h 15 year old car with 200k miles on it, and understand why its worth $5k (been there seen that).

 

Heres an SW1500 switcher (an 08), not made since 1974

$325k…

http://www.sterlingrail.com/classifieds/classified.php?id=28023

 

FP40.. $500k 100mph passenger loco from the 1970’s.

http://www.sterlingrail.com/classifieds/classified.php?id=27629

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_F40PH

 

 

If getting rid of the HSTs for a song was a good deal for our accountants then I guess the Mexicans must have seen us coming, and saved a packet instead of used US stock… (I did read somewhere the same line for the HSTs actually  canceled some locos and rolling stock from the US)… 2x s/h AC4400’s and 12 well aged Coaches from Kansas was it ?

 

Scrap value of a HST power car what like £30k ?

 

I really hope that wasn't the case as if it was it shows how naive we are as a country when it comes to doing international business. .. if thats the case then no wonder they bought it all, came back for more and emptied the trash on their way out too.
Try spinning that to Cornwalls standing passengers… it would be like Gordon Browns gold sell off.

I really hope it wasnt so.. it would mean 4920 Dumbleton Halls reported reported sale for a £1mn into perspective, yet some are saying wcrc arent making sense in their decisions?

 

 

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

14 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

I really hope that wasn't the case as if it was it shows how naive we are as a country when it comes to doing international business. .. if thats the case then no wonder they bought it all.
 

 

 

 

Or obsessed with short term returns...

 

Never underestimate the influence of the money men and share traders....

 

Just look at the various privatisations - most of which have been judged as offering poor value for money over the longer term but at time of sale generated a nice tidy sum for the Government at time of sale.

 

Porterbrook, like all private business, has to be sensitive to shareholder demands and if dividends are not felt to be high enough then long term thinking tends to go out the Window.

 

In recent months there has been significant shareholder pressure on Unilever to dump what shareholders perceive as 'poorly performing' brands they own.

 

(hint they are not that poorly performing, they just don't make as much profit as the other bits)

Edited April 3 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Or obsessed with short term returns...

 

Never underestimate the influence of the money men and share traders....

 

Just look at the various privatisations - most of which have been judged as offering poor value for money over the longer term but at time of sale generated a nice tidy sum for the Government at time of sale.

 

Porterbrook, like all private business, has to be sensitive to shareholder demands and if dividends are not felt to be high enough then long term thinking tends to go out the Window.

 

In recent months there has been significant shareholder pressure on Unilever to dump what shareholders perceive as 'poorly performing' brands they own.

 

(hint they are not that poorly performing, they just don't make as much profit as the other bits)

 

Now I see why Ashley bought Hornby shares, he must have heard how many HSTs they have, and went looking for a slice of the action.

😀

oh lord, even Nigerian Princes might pay up their promises on that deal.

 

Edited April 3 by adb968008

[11B]

On 02/04/2024 at 12:20, ruggedpeak said:

Because as per your first paragraph there is a difference between amateurs and professionals. And no one has an exemption from tyre tread depth because it is utterly critical to the safe operation of a vehicle, the likelihood of it contributing to a collision is extremely high. And amateur drivers cannot be trusted to carry out any promised change.

 

For 'professionals' under HASAWA there is risk assessments and related processes. The ORR has followed these and allowed operators with suitable and sufficient risk assessments and other processes to have exemptions. This included WCRC who were granted an exemption on the basis they enacted the plan to install CDL and operated in accordance with their risk assessments. Spot checks were undertaken and WCRC were found not to in compliance with their own agreed procedures and that there had been incidents on their services, all detailed in the JR judgement.

 

Let's again clear up the misinformation being spread. The ORR has not banned anything, the 'ban' is the law set by statutory regulation. ORR's role and responsibility is to enforce those regulations - that is their statutory function. They offered exemptions to those who met the requirements. They withdrew them from those who failed to meet the requirements.

 Hi Tony,

 

I fear you may have misinterpreted the point I was trying to make, there should be no exemption or exception to the law that is currently in place. What was simply trying to imply was that a realistic date should have been set many years ago for CDL. Then after that date, if it doesn't have it, if doesn't run in passenger service. What one man calls a "safe work around" for not having CDL may not be seen the same by other!

 

And for clarification - I am neither a supporter or hater of WCR or any other TOC for that matter. I know people that have worked for them, and people that still do. And most importantly to myself, I don't discuss the politics of their work place with them, likewise we don't discuss the politics of mine. Likewise, I am fully aware of the reputation of both WCR and the owner.

 

Kindest regards Ian