WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[Morello Cherry]

6 hours ago, arran said:

so how do you know WCR got Mps to stick up for them ? i should imagine that came from local Business going apoplectic as  the whole sorry mess   

 

Strange then that the MP for the Fort William and Mallaig areas did not sign it then.

 

I am struggling to work out which businesses are being damaged in Keighley, Altrincham, and Norfolk by the ORR demand that WRC fit CDL to their coaching stock.

 

I think the only MP responding to a local business going apoplectic is the MP for Morecambe.

[ruggedpeak]

9 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

Strange then that the MP for the Fort William and Mallaig areas did not sign it then.

 

I am struggling to work out which businesses are being damaged in Keighley, Altrincham, and Norfolk by the ORR demand that WRC fit CDL to their coaching stock.

 

I think the only MP responding to a local business going apoplectic is the MP for Morecambe.

It's like 'Have I Got News for You' odd one out round!!

 

My guess all the English areas mentioned have heritage railways that may have some loose connection to WCRC. The Scottish MP's are a bit less gullible than their English counterparts, know the real story, and are probably as p1ssed off with WCRC as many of their constituents.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

2 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

Strange then that the MP for the Fort William and Mallaig areas did not sign it then.

 

I am struggling to work out which businesses are being damaged in Keighley, Altrincham, and Norfolk by the ORR demand that WRC fit CDL to their coaching stock.

 

I think the only MP responding to a local business going apoplectic is the MP for Morecambe.

Isn't Carnforth in Tim Farron's constituency (he signed the letter too). Cat Smith represents Lancaster, and David Morris, as you say, represente Morecambe and Lunesdale. All three of them have a legitimate interest in representing WCRC (but not The Jacobite, as such). James Wild is MP for King's Lynn, where RTC is based.

 

I can't see that it's got much to do with any of the others. As you say, it is telling that Ian Blackford didn't sign, he being the MP for the entire route of The Jacobite.

[JIJ]

To those comparing this to other countries which may run without doors, approximately 10 years ago, I was a passenger on a very full voyager heading south on the MML late at night. Due to the full train, several of us were travelling in the vestibule.

 

At one of the station stops (possibly east midlands parkway), one of the doors didn't close fully and opened as the train was leaving the station (I'm not sure how any interlocking was working). The four or five of us in the vestibule huddled around the other door, and some moved into the corridor connection. At the next station, the door closed and locked properly. 

 

I've since wondered how the train continued despite the door being open; but at the time neither I or the other passengers pulled the emergency lever, as we all wanted to get home. 

 

It certainly felt unsafe, but the hazard was obvious to the passengers because we all saw the door not closed and could move away while the train was at low speed. Had the door have come open while we were traveling, it would have been a very different situation.

[Morello Cherry]

4 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Isn't Carnforth in Tim Farron's constituency (he signed the letter too). Cat Smith represents Lancaster, and David Morris, as you say, represente Morecambe and Lunesdale. All three of them have a legitimate interest in representing WCRC (but not The Jacobite, as such). James Wild is MP for King's Lynn, where RTC is based.

 

I can't see that it's got much to do with any of the others. As you say, it is telling that Ian Blackford didn't sign, he being the MP for the entire route of The Jacobite.

 

When I checked quickly it said Carnforth is in the Morecambe constituency but you maybe right. My main point is that the only local business that is complaining is WRC. That there are a group of Carnforth and surrounding area MPs and a few randoms says a lot.

 

Maybe Brady is Riley's local MP? I do recall that MPs will tell you that they can only respond to constituents' concerns. 

 

 

 

[arran]

https://www.westcoasttoday.co.uk/news/jacobite-petition-builds-up-a-head-of-steam-as-business-owner-warns-of-devasting-effect-of-suspension

[BoD]

1 hour ago, arran said:

Them All ?  it was more than One MP wasn't it

But only one letter.

 

Bandwagon, jumping on, for the use of.

[11B]

22 minutes ago, JIJ said:

To those comparing this to other countries which may run without doors, approximately 10 years ago, I was a passenger on a very full voyager heading south on the MML late at night. Due to the full train, several of us were travelling in the vestibule.

 

At one of the station stops (possibly east midlands parkway), one of the doors didn't close fully and opened as the train was leaving the station (I'm not sure how any interlocking was working). The four or five of us in the vestibule huddled around the other door, and some moved into the corridor connection. At the next station, the door closed and locked properly. 

 

I've since wondered how the train continued despite the door being open; but at the time neither I or the other passengers pulled the emergency lever, as we all wanted to get home. 

 

It certainly felt unsafe, but the hazard was obvious to the passengers because we all saw the door not closed and could move away while the train was at low speed. Had the door have come open while we were traveling, it would have been a very different situation.

No. Tim Farron is Kendal area, ours in Carnforth is David Morris 

[Bucoops]

49 minutes ago, JIJ said:

To those comparing this to other countries which may run without doors, approximately 10 years ago, I was a passenger on a very full voyager heading south on the MML late at night. Due to the full train, several of us were travelling in the vestibule.

 

At one of the station stops (possibly east midlands parkway), one of the doors didn't close fully and opened as the train was leaving the station (I'm not sure how any interlocking was working). The four or five of us in the vestibule huddled around the other door, and some moved into the corridor connection. At the next station, the door closed and locked properly. 

 

I've since wondered how the train continued despite the door being open; but at the time neither I or the other passengers pulled the emergency lever, as we all wanted to get home. 

 

It certainly felt unsafe, but the hazard was obvious to the passengers because we all saw the door not closed and could move away while the train was at low speed. Had the door have come open while we were traveling, it would have been a very different situation.

 

Something similar happened with a 321 not that long ago - IIRC the bolts that held the sensor activator that allowed the system to recognise a door was open had been left out, so the door moved, but the activator didn't. so the system thought the door was shut. Wonder if the maintenance guys then moved to Boeing. Allegedly 🙃

 

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

I think the only MP responding to a local business going apoplectic is the MP for Morecambe.

 

If it wasn't Morecambe, perhaps it was Wise?

[adb968008]

11 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

That's one door lock, not a central door locking system, with interlocks and emergency overrides.

I take it youve never been to an Airport, Office, Data Centre, School … Its is no different to cdl… it all leads back to a security office with centralised and individual lock/unlock, comms, alarms, card swipes, emergency break glass etc

 

This isnt new revolutionary tech… cdl on a mk1 is nothing more than a modern office building on wheels… indeed you dont need half of what a modern building has either.

it doesnt cost £30k to secure the doors in a shared office… unless your paying for 24/7 security as well.

wcrc mk1’s only use 4 doors.

 

Rather than Travis Perkins, maybe WCRC should upgrade to Wickes ?, the catalogs got more in it. 

Edited April 8 by adb968008

[nightstar.train]

34 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I take it youve never been to an Airport, Office, Data Centre, School … Its is no different to cdl… it all leads back to a security office with centralised and individual lock/unlock, comms, alarms, card swipes, emergency break glass etc

 

This isnt new revolutionary tech… cdl on a mk1 is nothing more than a modern office building on wheels… indeed you dont need half of what a modern building has either.

it doesnt cost £30k to secure the doors in a shared office… unless your paying for 24/7 security as well.

wcrc mk1’s only use 4 doors.

 

Rather than Travis Perkins, maybe WCRC should upgrade to Wickes ?, the catalogs got more in it. 

 

The real problem with an electro magnetic system is getting a reliable power source on a Mk1.  The alternator and battery system are not reliable enough. You need better batteries, which is easy in 2024. But then they need charging. AAUI the alternator on a Mk1 doesn't work well at low speeds, and indeed can fail completely. So you need better alternators, or a regular shore connection to charge them.

 

It's not insurmountable by any means but a huge problem will be the paper work. Any system like this would need certifying for use on railway. Could certainly be worth it for WCRC with over 100 coaches to fit. But again it comes down to their willingness (or lack thereof) to spend the necessary dinars. 

[Titan]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Yes and no. Although it showed the under frames being very strong the passenger accommodation was pretty mangled…

 

 

Eh? on the CEGB crash the passenger accommodation remained entirely intact apart from about two broken windows and crush damage to the leading toilet where it over rode the loco as it did not have the benefit of the buck eye couplings that the rest of the train did. Pretty far from being pretty mangled...

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

Eh? on the CEGB crash the passenger accommodation remained entirely intact apart from about two broken windows and crush damage to the leading toilet where it over rode the loco as it did not have the benefit of the buck eye couplings that the rest of the train did. Pretty far from being pretty mangled...

I refer you to the post made by Northmoor just a few hours ago…..

[Titan]

Indeed. However I prefer to believe the photographs, of which there are also interior shots showing minor damage rather than "mangling".

 

Exterior, First toilet compartment damaged, Some window breakage along train where wagon landed on roof:

 

http://www.nigeltout.com/assets/images/autogen/618_01_OldDalby_198408_s.jpg

 

Interior shot of where wagon landed on roof:

 

http://www.nigeltout.com/assets/images/autogen/619_03A_OldDalby_198408_s.jpg

 

When I think of "pretty mangled" these are not the kind of images I would associate with that phrase.

 

The security of the seats was somewhat less than I would have expected, so there would admittedly be injuries or worse from that, but mangled the bodyshells were not.

Edited April 8 by Titan

[rodent279]

I think that if you did survive, you'd be lucky to get away without life changing injuries. A mk2 or 3 would have fared better.

[Titan]

Indeed, and Mk2/3 would undoubtably been better. However that does not mean that Mk1s are made out of tissue paper as some seem to think.  You only have to read the Harrow and Wealdstone accident report when the then new Mk1's were praised for their crashworthiness compared to the older carriages, and it was considered regrettable that the trains were not formed entirely of Mk1 stock as many lives would have been saved due to the strength of the new carriages...

Edited April 8 by Titan

[John M Upton]

A pair of Class 37's with loco hauled stock made it to Mallaig and back today successfully, Mk III stock and the 37 in that fake Scotrail garb but they got there with no fuss or commotion, that WCRC is how you do it rather than tossing your toys out of the pram because you have been told to behave yourself and follow the rules everyone else has to...

[25901]

With LSL setting up a base at Carlisle maybe WCRC will figure their about to get a kicking off somebody else too 

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, stewartingram said:

The nuclear wagon test crash with the class 45 and mk1s, actually seemed too show the strength of the mk1 design?

Class 45?  The nuclear flask must have chipped a little bit off the class 46 that it started out with. 

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Going a bit off topic (as we do), I've been thinking.....

Do the Royal coaches have CDL? If not, do they have B&Q door bolts and stewards at every door?

Only asking.

If I told you, I'd have to shoot you...

[Wheatley]

Tim Farron isn't exactly a stranger to   WCRC:

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2018/06/train-services-return-to-the-lake-district-thanks-to-tim-farron-and-west-coast-railways.html

 

Fairly sure i never saw Her Maj open her own door. 

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

 

 

Fairly sure i never saw Her Maj open her own door. 

 

Her/His train doesnt have cdl either, nor do I see any exemptions for it.

 

 

Edited April 9 by adb968008

[rodent279]

8 hours ago, Titan said:

Indeed, and Mk2/3 would undoubtably been better. However that does not mean that Mk1s are made out of tissue paper as some seem to think.  You only have to read the Harrow and Wealdstone accident report when the then new Mk1's were praised for their crashworthiness compared to the older carriages, and it was considered regrettable that the trains were not formed entirely of Mk1 stock as many lives would have been saved due to the strength of the new carriages...

This is true, and the mk1 is in my view one of the unsung heros of the BR era, possibly BR's best legacy. Replacing thousands of wooden framed coaches on steel underframe with all steel, welded coaches was an early decision on BR's part. Mk1 stock was much more crashworthy than the stock it replaced, and is probably responsible for saving hundreds of lives and thousands of injuries overall.

The safety concerns about mk1 stock do not really lie in their inherent crashworthiness, rather they lie in the risks associated from misuse and/or failure of slam doors. As long as they are maintained well and are structurally sound, I don't think they are about to be banned on crashworthiness grounds alone. Currently the safety regime focuses on preventing accidents happening in the first place, rightly, through TPWS/ATC etc.

Edited April 9 by rodent279

[johnofwessex]

I remember having a discussion with a LT Engineer about crashworthiness.

 

I suggest that the issue now isnt the ability of the stock to withstand a crash, its the ability of the passengers to survive the impact.

 

I would imagine that in the case of the nuclear flask test (Think Hixton) the crashworthiness of the MK1 stock would be irrelevant 

 

 

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

I remember having a discussion with a LT Engineer about crashworthiness.

 

I suggest that the issue now isnt the ability of the stock to withstand a crash, its the ability of the passengers to survive the impact.

 

I would imagine that in the case of the nuclear flask test (Think Hixton) the crashworthiness of the MK1 stock would be irrelevant 

 

 

I know were drifting ot on this but, Would seatbelt's help ?

 

I have wondered by seatbelts havent been a thing on trains before…

 

planes, cars, long distance coaches all have them.

Edited April 9 by adb968008