WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[pete_mcfarlane]

35 minutes ago, 5944 said:

I really feel for the passengers today. You have two hours in cold, very wet and very windy Mallaig, and your train back is a set of cold, dark Mk2s that have been parked up for years until this week. 

It's all about nostalgia. In this case, bringing that distinctive damp railway carriage smell back to the mainline. 

[ruggedpeak]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but if no ETH loco what powers the CDL?

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Legend said:

Who knows what WCRCs interpretation of the rules are . I have a feeling they may be different from the ORR with reference doors locked out of use on RMB

 

What is interesting is that as I see it WCRC have eventually capitulated realising the only way they are going to get to run Jacobite is with CDL stock .   This whole episode has not convinced me they are fit to be on our railway though . 

Being a sometimes cynical person, especially when it comes to the machination of WCRC,  I have wondered if their clearly intended use of vehicles without opening quarter lights and not looking like the 'Hogwarts Express' vehicles is yet another ploy on their part?  Are they hoping that customer reaction to these 'modern' coaches will lead to demands to reinstate 'the old coaches' on the train. Or do they really think they have lost the battle?

 

I  could obviously be well wrong - but you never know with this bunch.

 

3 hours ago, 31A said:

 

The interesting thing about this Rule Book extract is that it very clearly refers to defective doors.   You need to read both TW1 and TW 5 to arrive at a slightly  more comprehensive answer but even then it allows a bit of rope for operators to make their own Instructions.  What the Rule Book modules do not seem to say anywhere is that it is required to bar passengers from travelling in a coach which has locked doors - but only from one with locked defective doors.

 

It is arguable, but not exactly stated as far as i could find when looking yesterday, that a coach not fitted with CDL amounts to the same as a coach with defective CDL.   I would tend very much to regard it in that way (and would have done exactly that way back in the past when my job included ruling on interpretation of the Rules and Regulations

 

Edited April 15 by The Stationmaster

[5944]

7 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Apologies if this has been answered before, but if no ETH loco what powers the CDL?

The coach batteries. It only needs power to unlock it, air pressure keeps the locks engaged in service.

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Being a sometimes cynical person, especially when it comes to the machination of WCRC,  I have wondered if their clearly intended use of vehicles without opening quarter lights and not looking like the 'Hogwarts Express' vehicles is yet another ploy on their part?  Are they hoping that customer reaction to these 'modern' coaches will lead to demands to reinstate 'the old coaches' on the train. Or do they really think they have lost the battle?

 

 

Something along the lines of American lady "Why can't we sit in the Harry Potter coaches" to which they reply "Well the government tell us we cannot let you as it is dangerous"  and then "What business does your federal government have in telling you how to run a train" "Exactly"  says the WCRC spokesperson.

 

They want to actually have people complain by locking carriages out of use - it's quite specific isn't it to go Mk1, Mk2, Mk1, Mk2 - if it was operational i.e. brakes they could have put the Mk1s all together.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I can understand why they have 1860 (catering) and 21266 (guard, and quite likely support crew) in the formation, but I wonder what reason they have for 4951.

 

Perhaps they have invited the press along.

 

They could then show the journalists the rather less pleasant conditions that fare-paying passengers have to put up with. Mind you, I suppose Mk2fs don't have steam pipes, so the coaches will all be cold.

Edited April 15 by Jeremy Cumberland
Thought 4951 was an end vehicle

[ruggedpeak]

I've just found that Mr Wolmar did a piece in the Spectator entitled "Don’t blame health and safety for killing the Harry Potter steam train" a couple of weeks ago.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dont-blame-health-and-safety-for-killing-the-harry-potter-steam-train/

 

He doesn't mince his words:

 

"Should we be tempted to regard the safety risks on a few puffa trains as being nothing much to worry about, it should be noted that West Coast Railways has form on potential dangers of this sort. The company was involved in what, in my 30 years of writing about the railways, came close to becoming one of the worst disasters in British railway history."

 

I will let readers guess what he is referring to.........

Edited April 15 by ruggedpeak
spacing

[john new]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Being a sometimes cynical person, especially when it comes to the machination of WCRC,  I have wondered if their clearly intended use of vehicles without opening quarter lights and not looking like the 'Hogwarts Express' vehicles is yet another ploy on their part?  Are they hoping that customer reaction to these 'modern' coaches will lead to demands to reinstate 'the old coaches' on the train. Or do they really think they have lost the battle?

 

I  could obviously be well wrong - but you never know with this bunch.

 

The interesting thing about this Rule Book extract is that it very clearly refers to defective doors.   You need to read both TW1 and TW 5 to arrive at a slightly  more comprehensive answer but even then it allows a bit of rope for operators to make their own Instructions.  What the Rule Book modules do not seem to say anywhere is that it is required to bar passengers from travelling in a coach which has locked doors - but only from one with locked defective doors.

 

It is arguable, but not exactly stated as far as i could find when looking yesterday, that a coach not fitted with CDL amounts to the same as a coach with defective CDL.   I would tend very much to regard it in that way (and would have done exactly that way back in the past when my job included ruling on interpretation of the Rules and Regulations

 

From my time in L Govt management before retirement going through London's edicts for the missed commas, misplaced words, sentences that didn't actually say what we knew they meant* and such like (which left loop-holes for things they missed thinking of blocking us from doing directly) was part of the job. 

 

From posts up thread I have got the impression you (as in the train operator)  can lock a door if (a) the adjacent vestibule door is openable & CDL fitted and (b) your concocted risk assessment shows that to be a low enough risk to be acceptable.

 

Possibly a second stab at getting around the obvious block on using non-CDL fitted Mk1s. Step one was taking them on in court arguing they really don't need their full rake of MK1s so fitted. This is step two in their campaign - the full rake is half-CDL half non-CDL, but hey all the useable doors are CDL fitted so we are compliant. Might be able to buy them some more time and  revenue over and above any subsequent legal costs, even if they (ORR) say no it can't be done this way.

 

* we did the jobs so knew how it is done locally - they thought we did it in other ways or described the task wrongly so compliance with what they actually blocked wasn't an issue for us.

 

Edited April 15 by john new
Rephrasing a small part after rereading what I had posted.

[ruggedpeak]

LSL announce their trip

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/HSLqmkhRhv3FvpyS/

 

We are delighted to present a day return journey over the world-famous West Highland Jacobite line, featuring some of the most spectacular scenery in Scotland as we cross magnificent bridges and viaducts offering views of tumbling waterfalls, peaceful lochs, and the Isle of Skye.
The train departs Fort William at 08.50 for the magnificent 84-mile round trip on the ‘Jacobite’ line to Mallaig - Passing Ben Nevis we travel along the shoreline of Loch Eil and at Glenfinnan cross the viaduct featured in the ‘Harry Potter’ movies offering stunning vistas down Loch Shiel and regarded as the most spectacular view in Britain. There will be a short break in the pretty fishing port of Mallaig from 10.50 to 11.30 before retracing our outward route past the white sands of Morar with an arrival back in Fort William at 13.20.
Tickets are available as pay on the day from staff on the train and are priced at £40 per person for adults and £20 per person for under 16’s.

[nightstar.train]

7 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

LSL announce their trip

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/HSLqmkhRhv3FvpyS/

 

It’s such a shame they announce it with so little notice. Fort William is a long way from anywhere, and you’d have to stay overnight as even the sleeper doesn’t arrive early enough. I think they’d get a lot more punters if they announced it for a fortnight or sometime in May. I’m in Paisley and would quite like a trip, but can’t swing this Friday. 
 

As to WCRC, I wonder if the guys and girls at the ORR are looking the Facebook videos with their heads in their hands, then stuffing a briefcase full of prohibition notices and booking tonight’s sleeper? I do think that WCRC are breaking the spirit, if not the letter, of the law. Also what are they thinking running a train without ETH? And presumably the Mk2Fs aren’t through piped for steam heating either, so all the coaches will be freezing. Temperatures up there aren’t breaking 10°c today. 

 

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, nightstar.train said:

 

It’s such a shame they announce it with so little notice. Fort William is a long way from anywhere, and you’d have to stay overnight as even the sleeper doesn’t arrive early enough. I think they’d get a lot more punters if they announced it for a fortnight or sometime in May. I’m in Paisley and would quite like a trip, but can’t swing this Friday. 
 

As to WCRC, I wonder if the guys and girls at the ORR are looking the Facebook videos with their heads in their hands, then stuffing a briefcase full of prohibition notices and booking tonight’s sleeper? I do think that WCRC are breaking the spirit, if not the letter, of the law. Also what are they thinking running a train without ETH? And presumably the Mk2Fs aren’t through piped for steam heating either, so all the coaches will be freezing. Temperatures up there aren’t breaking 10°c today. 

 

We're maybe not their general target audience, it's not for trainspotters but local tourists wanting to see the area plus a trip on 'that' viaduct.  Their first trip attracted attention, but perhaps they wanted that to get the trip onto social media. 
 

LSL and WCRC don't fill their trains with rail enthusiasts at the prices they sell at, there will be some, but they need tourist money to profit.

[nightstar.train]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

We're maybe not their general target audience, it's not for trainspotters but local tourists wanting to see the area plus a trip on 'that' viaduct.  Their first trip attracted attention, but perhaps they wanted that to get the trip onto social media. 
 

LSL and WCRC don't fill their trains with rail enthusiasts at the prices they sell at, there will be some, but they need tourist money to profit.

Maybe. But I’d think a rake of Mk3s with 37s will attract a lot more rail enthusiasts than “civilians”. Overseas tourists will want a steam engine pulling red coaches to get the Harry Potter experience. And even if it’s aimed at local tourists it’s still very short notice, and rather early in the morning. The last trains did get some punters, but not even enough to fill 2 coaches. I doubt it made a single pfennig in profit. They’d be better running in the afternoon Jacobite slot. Although do WCRC own that at this time of year? They obviously do in the summer, I’m not familiar with their access agreements. 

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

Maybe. But I’d think a rake of Mk3s with 37s will attract a lot more rail enthusiasts than “civilians”.

They would not sustain it for long and they won't spend a penny in Mallaig - the area needs tourist traffic not penny pinching enthusiasts.

[ruggedpeak]

FB comment from a local about the Jacobite at 1425 hours:

 

"....I believe it is presently stuck somewhere near Glenfinnan holding up the sprinter..." Several likes suggest perhaps others aware.

 

Looked on RTT, first run of the season so likely to be teething troubles.

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C10935/2024-04-15/detailed

 

2Y62 1410 Mallaig to Fort William

Departing today operated by West Coast Railways

This service is cancelled.

This service was cancelled due to a problem with a steam locomotive (ME).

[5944]

1 hour ago, nightstar.train said:

Maybe. But I’d think a rake of Mk3s with 37s will attract a lot more rail enthusiasts than “civilians”. Overseas tourists will want a steam engine pulling red coaches to get the Harry Potter experience. And even if it’s aimed at local tourists it’s still very short notice, and rather early in the morning. The last trains did get some punters, but not even enough to fill 2 coaches. I doubt it made a single pfennig in profit. They’d be better running in the afternoon Jacobite slot. Although do WCRC own that at this time of year? They obviously do in the summer, I’m not familiar with their access agreements. 

160 passengers on the Monday, 40 on the Tuesday I believe. It's not possible to get it to it by train without staying overnight the previous day, which really doesn't help.  Then 4 hours back in Fort William before the next train south. 

 

At least today's passengers didn't have to worry about the weather in Mallaig - the train stalled leaving Glenfinnan and couldn't get going again, even with hand sanding. Driver had to go back to Fort William to fetch a diesel.

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Something along the lines of American lady "Why can't we sit in the Harry Potter coaches" to which they reply "Well the government tell us we cannot let you as it is dangerous"  and then "What business does your federal government have in telling you how to run a train" "Exactly"  says the WCRC spokesperson.

 

They want to actually have people complain by locking carriages out of use - it's quite specific isn't it to go Mk1, Mk2, Mk1, Mk2 - if it was operational i.e. brakes they could have put the Mk1s all together.

How is this rake braked?  I thought all air-con Mk2s were air braked only and wasn't aware the Black 5 provided air braking, so presumably the 47 is there to provide brake pressure (but how is it controlled?).

 

If Riley's Black 5s all have air braking then I have even less sympathy for WCRC than I started today with.  CDL fitment is routine on air-braked stock, so WCRC could have used air braked Mark 1s all along, there are plenty of them around.  This is, I suspect, why WCRC are stalling on CDL fitment; vacuum braking will become unacceptable on NR before too long so the company doesn't want to commit to the expense on stock that might have to be withdrawn altogether before they have earned the installation cost back.  CDL is a red herring.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Northmoor said:

How is this rake braked?  I thought all air-con Mk2s were air braked only and wasn't aware the Black 5 provided air braking, so presumably the 47 is there to provide brake pressure (but how is it controlled?).

 

If Riley's Black 5s all have air braking then I have even less sympathy for WCRC than I started today with.  CDL fitment is routine on air-braked stock, so WCRC could have used air braked Mark 1s all along, there are plenty of them around.  This is, I suspect, why WCRC are stalling on CDL fitment; vacuum braking will become unacceptable on NR before too long so the company doesn't want to commit to the expense on stock that might have to be withdrawn altogether before they have earned the installation cost back.  CDL is a red herring.

According to the KWVR who own 45212 it is air braked.

[adb968008]

Starting to sound like a Highland farce rather than a Highland fling.

 

one operator openly chugging a loss making diesel service at short notice random dates.

another running a half baked, half ecs, half no heat service also probably half empty.

 

two half baked operations doesn't make a whole one.

 

Time to Shut both millionaires trainsets down.

I say 

get SRPS to finish its rake in WHL green/cream with cdl, get the 26/27’s mainline fitted, with 37025/403  … get gbrf as crews and convince someone to get steam on gbrfs safety case with Rileys black 5’s…. Then SRPS diesels can provide CS sleeper standby support from ftw coupled to a 73/9, thus releasing an all important 66 or 73/9 for other use too and a way of swapping out for maintenance in Edinburgh… 

 

I know I can dream, but it sounds better than this “Who's got the biggest haggis” contest were seeing.

 

😀

 

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

How is this rake braked?  I thought all air-con Mk2s were air braked only and wasn't aware the Black 5 provided air braking, so presumably the 47 is there to provide brake pressure (but how is it controlled?).

 

If Riley's Black 5s all have air braking then I have even less sympathy for WCRC than I started today with.  CDL fitment is routine on air-braked stock, so WCRC could have used air braked Mark 1s all along, there are plenty of them around.  This is, I suspect, why WCRC are stalling on CDL fitment; vacuum braking will become unacceptable on NR before too long so the company doesn't want to commit to the expense on stock that might have to be withdrawn altogether before they have earned the installation cost back.  CDL is a red herring.

All 3 of Ian Rileys Black 5’s have air braking, they have done for many years.

And today all three are in use in Scotland… 45407/44871 are to Glasgow, then Inverness tomorrow, whilst 45212 is on the Mallaig.

 

I suspect you may be right on vac braked stock, and hence the cdl hold off…. Because the expense triples… AB mk1’s, AB the steam locos then CDL the stock.

 

There seems to be a mk1 exemption date running until 2028 too… theres no guarentees that goal post wont shift either to an outright ban of mk1’s no matter what…

 

Then there is also sealing the droplights and fitting interior doir handles….

 

it also means any other steam preservation groups 45596, 45305,777,70013,76084 wont be able to go mainline any more either unless a vac braked cdl solution emerges… 

 

I do see a lot of business risk to this… LSL has thrown huge wedges at its dozen coaches.. WCRC I still think may run until the end and just wrap it all up… Carnforths seaside location and proximity to the motorway is a multi million property development just waiting to be scooped up… the scrapping coaches / diesel fleet and clearing the site a huge tax offset to the above…

 

put it another way.., if I owned that lot and only cared about money.. i’d be binning the lot for a property development too… theres way more potential there than wcrcs company value.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 15 by adb968008

[GrumpyPenguin]

4 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

It's all about nostalgia. In this case, bringing that distinctive damp railway carriage smell back to the mainline. 

Would you care to explain that to Mrs Grumpy as she suffers from arthritis ?

 

I don't recall ever being cold anywhere in steam days.

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

it also means any other steam preservation groups 45596, 45305,777,70013,76084 wont be able to go mainline any more either unless a vac braked cdl solution emerges… 

 

 

 

Not to mention as ECTS as it creeps northwards from London - it might not get everywhere but you can imagine there will be limited lines where steam will eventually be able to operate without ECTS.  The A1 project are spearheading the design of the ECTS application onto a steam locomotive, they were also meant to be then fitting it to a WCRC/RIley Black 5 and an LSL Black 5.

[phil-b259]

20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

There seems to be a mk1 exemption date running until 2028 too… theres no guarentees that goal post wont shift either to an outright ban of mk1’s no matter what…

 

If that were a realistic proposition the LSL, Belmont, Hastings diesels etc wouldn’t have / are spending lots of money on ‘Mk1’ (the law basically considers anything with a separate bodyshell and underframe to be a ‘Mk1’ regardless of whether it is actually a true Mk1 coach.

 

Fitting of interior door handles and restring droplight openings is also hardly difficult - huge numbers of BR Mk1 based EMUs had just such a setup as a response to restricted clearances on some routes (e.g. East Grinstead line)

[adb968008]

9 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

If that were a realistic proposition the LSL, Belmont, Hastings diesels etc wouldn’t have / are spending lots of money on ‘Mk1’ (the law basically considers anything with a separate bodyshell and underframe to be a ‘Mk1’ regardless of whether it is actually a true Mk1 coach.

 

Fitting of interior door handles and restring droplight openings is also hardly difficult - huge numbers of BR Mk1 based EMUs had just such a setup as a response to restricted clearances on some routes (e.g. East Grinstead line)

Who’s going to be your internal door lock supplier then ?

 

mk1 emus were binned 20 years ago, unless someone had foresight to buy up hundreds.. theres no supply.  Hastings diesels had a head start.. afterall they were surrounded by them, in their own workshop.

 

so new designs, castings may be required…

 

Now on that note, I do recall about 10 years ago reading that the casts for the SR EMUs internal door locks overhauled at Swindon were saved, initially in the Swindon works water tower, later moved to the Wroughton hangar, I saw pictures of it at the time, so chances are they still exist in a “raiders of the lost ark” warehouse ending state. This included the door handles, grab handle casts, and the side frame mechanism.

 

 

Edited April 15 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

33 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

.  This is, I suspect, why WCRC are stalling on CDL fitment; vacuum braking will become unacceptable on NR before too long so the company doesn't want to commit to the expense on stock that might have to be withdrawn altogether before they have earned the installation cost back.  CDL is a red herring.

Vaculm braking is not unacceptable on safety grounds - it still fulfills all the legislative requirements as far as vehicles operating on the national rail network go.

 

The ONLY reason Network Rail don’t like it is hardly anyone uses it - so if a vacuum braked train needs rescuing / dragging off the main line due to a failure then it’s going to take ages to sort out thus increasing the compensation payments which have to be paid out to other operators due to the infrastructure being unavailable 

 

(If the failed train is a charter then it’s even more expensive for Network Rail as the amount of charter operators pay is capped - what Network Rail have to pay out to everyone else is not!

 

By contrast if the train is air braked then it will be say to source an air braked loco from a Freight company to get the failed train out of the way.

[5944]

35 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

All 3 of Ian Rileys Black 5’s have air braking, they have done for many years.

And today all three are in use in Scotland… 45407/44871 are to Glasgow, then Inverness tomorrow, whilst 45212 is on the Mallaig.

 

I suspect you may be right on vac braked stock, and hence the cdl hold off…. Because the expense triples… AB mk1’s, AB the steam locos then CDL the stock.

 

There seems to be a mk1 exemption date running until 2028 too… theres no guarentees that goal post wont shift either to an outright ban of mk1’s no matter what…

 

Then there is also sealing the droplights and fitting interior doir handles….

 

it also means any other steam preservation groups 45596, 45305,777,70013,76084 wont be able to go mainline any more either unless a vac braked cdl solution emerges… 

 

I do see a lot of business risk to this… LSL has thrown huge wedges at its dozen coaches.. WCRC I still think may run until the end and just wrap it all up… Carnforths seaside location and proximity to the motorway is a multi million property development just waiting to be scooped up… the scrapping coaches / diesel fleet and clearing the site a huge tax offset to the above…

 

put it another way.., if I owned that lot and only cared about money.. i’d be binning the lot for a property development too… theres way more potential there than wcrcs company value.

 

 

 

 

 

SRPS are fitting their dual-braked Mk1s with electrical CDL that doesn't need an air supply, and I assume Vintage will do the same to their stock as well. So the solution is out there, but the Yorkshire farmer isn't willing to stump up the cash to fit it to his stock. Instead he's happy to lose the income from about 50 railtours in the summer - he's said the air con isn't effective in Mk2s in the summer so the stock won't be used. RTC have about 35 trips booked from mid-May to mid-Sept, WCRC have about 15. Yet WCRC are still happy to send the Northern Belle out every few days in the summer!