WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

'Fully committed to safety' while at the same time not complying with the requirements of the Rule Book?  That sounds like yet more WCRC double speak - this lot are beyond even a sad music hall joke.    I really do wonder exactly what they are playing at - apart from not complying with the Rules?

They've presumably taken cash from customers for a 2024 Jacobite service, handing that back would be potentially ruinous if it has already been spent or sent elsewhere.

 

They need to provide the service for as many people who've booked as possible and are doing so most likely in whatever way they can get away with for as long as they can get away with it.

 

From a PR perspective alone not being able to run the service will also place doubts in people's minds elsewhere where it is their stock providing the train.  So in some respects they have to find a way to keep this up until they can come to a solution that financially they are prepared to go with and keep punters booking onto services that use their stock.

[john new]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

'Fully committed to safety' while at the same time not complying with the requirements of the Rule Book?  That sounds like yet more WCRC double speak - this lot are beyond even a sad music hall joke.    I really do wonder exactly what they are playing at - apart from not complying with the Rules?

As they indirectly mention loss of income to 3rd parties in the press release are they hoping those same 3rd parties will (collectively?) stump up cash for the necessary work? Rather like @The Stationmaster I cannot comprehend WTF they are playing at!  They have just unnecessarily p****d off 100,000 people (their figure in the webpage statement*) so even at a kindergarten level of business theory that is not a good marketing strategy for attracting any, let alone repeat, bookings.

 

*from the WCR website - “This is affecting not only WCR, but over 100,000 passengers, the majority of whom are tourists to the West Highlands, this in turn affects thousands of local businesses and employment in the area.”

[LNER4479]

My understanding is that the two train service does not run low season, only the morning train currently. So, a plausible explanation behind the announcement is that the second service was due to start on 6th May but not yet enough suitable stock available yet to put together a second rake similar to the one currently running?

 

Just my interpretation; happy to be proven wrong.

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

There are two sets. In a post a few days ago, @adb968008 reckoned they didn't have enough stock for two trains:

 

If I have counted correctly, they appear to have 6 Mk2s with CDL and they are (or were) using 4 of these on the morning train.

Not enough locos either…

 

You cannot run a 2 train a day set up 7 days a week with 2 locos….. they need washouts, maintenance etc.

 

WCRC is out of AB locos…, and WHL ops specifically states only 4 types of steam loco can be used… B1, K1, Black 5 and 8f.

 

if they move 44871 north, they are down to just 34067 in the south.

 

60007’s owners could be cashing in right now if they hadnt gone to LSL.

Theres not much options on the table either.. 60163 coming back, other AB locos like 6201, 6233, 60009, 71000 are long gone, 60103 under guard.

 

tbh it smells like the beginning middle of the end to me.

I dont see how wcrc going to have a viable railtour business at the size / number of employees it has with just 2 rakes of stock long term and I cant see how the Jacobite survives next year, under a new wcrc contract.
 

Whats happened by stealth over the last decade is the slow retreat of preserved steam locos also..

4936/53/6023/9466/30777/31806/6201/6233/45305/45690/60009/61264/61994/62005/70013/71000/76084 have all dropped by the wayside, pretty much only 60163, 35028 and 45596 which are still independent and not aligned to LSL. VT is a closed shop for its own.

 

having 35018, 45699, 46115, 44932, 48151 sitting around wasting their overhaul costs sitting around cant be cheap either.. then theres 34016, 44767 and 45110 hiding in there somewhere.

 

it could be wcrc is simply seeing the end of the ride coming, started looking for a hill to die on, and ORR is the one theyve picked.

Edited April 30 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

From a PR perspective alone not being able to run the service will also place doubts in people's minds elsewhere where it is their stock providing the train.  So in some respects they have to find a way to keep this up until they can come to a solution that financially they are prepared to go with and keep punters booking onto services that use their stock.

John new beat me to it - if they keep trying to run it in the current "sub-optimal" way it is now, and things keep going wrong (stalled loco, cancelling certain services etc) eventually there will be a tipping point where the perception is that the Jacobite is hit and miss as to whether it will run even if people book it. The negative reviews and bad feeling will mount up.

 

But as you say, they want/need the money. They've taken the stock up there, they can't use it for anything else so just have to keep going or write off all the costs of getting the stock up there plus related contracts and commitments. If they bail out now not only do they eat a huge slice of humble pie, but they will p1ss off even more people locally, and we've already seen a lot of local businesses and politicians hold WCRC responsible for the problems, not the ORR or anyone else. And that may be enough for the locals to say "you're not welcome up here any more, we want someone else to run this service" - presumably why LSL decided to do a trial run to show the locals, ORR and NR that there are others who can run this sort of train.

 

Just now, john new said:

I cannot comprehend WTF they are playing at! 

 

I can, but we are into the psychology of individuals running the business and the associated culture. Whilst I am relaxed about commenting on that, it may fall foul of forum rules and given WCRC's proclivity for legal action, whether well advised or not, it is not appropriate to put Warners at risk of a libel case! However it is a well trodden path and a recurring storyline. I see nothing new or unusual about what WCRC are doing, even if it appears odd from the outside.

[Matt37268]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Not enough locos either…

 

You cannot run a 2 train a day set up 7 days a week with 2 locos….. they need washouts, maintenance etc.

 

WCRC is out of AB locos…, and WHL ops specifically states only 4 types of steam loco can be used… B1, K1, Black 5 and 8f.

 

if they move 44871 north, they are down to just 34067 in the south.

 

60007’s owners could be cashing in right now if they hadnt gone to LSL.

Theres not much options on the table either.. 60163 coming back, other AB locos like 6201, 6233, 60009, 71000 are long gone, 60103 under guard.

 

tbh it smells like the beginning middle of the end to me.

I dont see how wcrc going to have a viable railtour business at the size / number of employees it has with just 2 rakes of stock long term and I cant see how the Jacobite survives next year, under a new wcrc contract.
 

Whats happened by stealth over the last decade is the slow retreat of preserved steam locos also..

4936/53/6023/9466/30777/31806/6201/6233/45305/45690/60009/61264/61994/62005/70013/71000/76084 have all dropped by the wayside, pretty much only 60163, 35028 and 45596 which are still independent and not aligned to LSL. VT is a closed shop for its own.

 

having 35018, 45699, 46115, 44932, 48151 sitting around wasting their overhaul costs sitting around cant be cheap either.. then theres 34016, 44767 and 45110 hiding in there somewhere.

 

it could be wcrc is simply seeing the end of the ride coming, started looking for a hill to die on, and ORR is the one theyve picked.

60007’s owners have said they’re happy to work with other operators though, just as long as it doesn’t clash with the commitments they have with LSL, I also believe they’re rather happy to have 60007 not overworked. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

They've presumably taken cash from customers for a 2024 Jacobite service, handing that back would be potentially ruinous if it has already been spent or sent elsewhere.

 

They need to provide the service for as many people who've booked as possible and are doing so most likely in whatever way they can get away with for as long as they can get away with it.

 

From a PR perspective alone not being able to run the service will also place doubts in people's minds elsewhere where it is their stock providing the train.  So in some respects they have to find a way to keep this up until they can come to a solution that financially they are prepared to go with and keep punters booking onto services that use their stock.

But they knew well in advance when their exemption certificate expired so did they take the bookings on a somewhat 'misleading' basis without advising passengers who booked that they might not be able to run the trains?   That is nobody's fault but theirs

[5944]

40 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

60007’s owners have said they’re happy to work with other operators though, just as long as it doesn’t clash with the commitments they have with LSL, I also believe they’re rather happy to have 60007 not overworked. 

Indeed - not even so much as a tentative email received regarding the loco's availablity.

[Matt37268]

1 hour ago, 5944 said:

Indeed - not even so much as a tentative email received regarding the loco's availablity.

Ever get the feeling that someone’s cutting off their nose to spite their face? 

[Northmoor]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Whats happened by stealth over the last decade is the slow retreat of preserved steam locos also..

4936/53/6023/9466/30777/31806/6201/6233/45305/45690/60009/61264/61994/62005/70013/71000/76084 have all dropped by the wayside, pretty much only 60163, 35028 and 45596 which are still independent and not aligned to LSL. VT is a closed shop for its own.

I know not all of them were main line certified simultaneously, but a decade or more ago there were far too many locos available for the number of tours the market could support.  

[Matt37268]

33 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I know not all of them were main line certified simultaneously, but a decade or more ago there were far too many locos available for the number of tours the market could support.  

Absolutely, in the case of 6023 it’s only mainline trips were to be towed to the loading point to go on a low loader elsewhere and that one trip to Padd for the open day at Old Oak Common. 

6201’s absence from the mainline is a little bit ‘self inflicted’ shall we say? 

 

 

[BMS]

A question that puzzles me: the mk1 on the Jacobite were there to provide the loos? Not for Potter appearances sake? Or were they there for to assist in battery charging the set?

So what loos do the Mk2 have now?

[ruggedpeak]

13 minutes ago, BMS said:

A question that puzzles me: the mk1 on the Jacobite were there to provide the loos? Not for Potter appearances sake? Or were they there for to assist in battery charging the set?

So what loos do the Mk2 have now?

It appears from earlier posts that they provided both the toilets and power for the set. Getting some form of ETHEL will not solve the toilet issue however!

[rodent279]

I was most impressed with HDL's thumper-not only does it have CDL, but the toilets are all retention types as well. Double winner because whilst waiting in station stops you can both drink beer, and let it out!

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

I know not all of them were main line certified simultaneously, but a decade or more ago there were far too many locos available for the number of tours the market could support.  

It depends what you mean by support.

 

I have a feeling 2007-2012 were mainline steams golden years.

 

London can support more tours than it has, but it was neglected as a market. The DCE to Swanage and Weymouth 3 x a week was onto something, just as an example. Wcrc were looking at putting a turntable in Weymouth.

I also recall plans for a return to Stratford upon avon, and Oxford as a tourist product from Londom, and regular steam to Kyle from Inverness.

This wasnt down to lack of demand.

The decline started after Wootton Bassett, its never recovered. 

Its becoming is more about a higher end business model, rather than an enthusiast support base. The locos are the casualties and the tour market for the exclusive, as the costs have risen not because demand fell. At some point mainline steam will be a once in a lifetime opportunity ss it becomes too expensive.

 Saturday May 11th puts three steam locos into the Capital on three different tours (Actually 4 tours if you count 86259 on the CME) , enjoy it whilst it lasts, as its gone from a routine summer event, to an almost biennial, indeed I am approaching as most likely the last time 4 tours trapse London in the same day… 5 when the 33 comes on Sunday..

Enjoy it whilst it lasts.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30 by adb968008

[Matt37268]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

It depends what you mean by support.

 

I have a feeling 2007-2012 were mainline steams golden years.

 

London can support more tours than it has, but it was neglected as a market. The DCE to Swanage and Weymouth 3 x a week was onto something, just as an example. Wcrc were looking at putting a turntable in Weymouth.

I also recall plans for a return to Stratford upon avon, and Oxford as a tourist product from Londom, and regular steam to Kyle from Inverness.

This wasnt down to lack of demand.

The decline started after Wootton Bassett, its never recovered. 

Its becoming is more about a higher end business model, rather than an enthusiast support base. The locos are the casualties and the tour market for the exclusive, as the costs have risen not because demand fell. At some point mainline steam will be a once in a lifetime opportunity ss it becomes too expensive.

 Saturday May 11th puts three steam locos into the Capital on three different tours (Actually 4 tours if you count 86259 on the CME) , enjoy it whilst it lasts, as its gone from a routine summer event, to an almost biennial, indeed I am approaching as most likely the last time 4 tours trapse London in the same day… 5 when the 33 comes on Sunday..

Enjoy it whilst it lasts.

 

 

 

 

There was an event going on in 2012 that made London ‘out of bounds’ to Charters in the run up to it and afterwards don’t forget. 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

Absolutely, in the case of 6023 it’s only mainline trips were to be towed to the loading point to go on a low loader elsewhere and that one trip to Padd for the open day at Old Oak Common. 

Do you really think 6023’s transformation from this..

 

with hundreds of thousands of pounds, thousands of man hours, volunteer efforts and good will, including what was considered impossible in 1985, of casting a new driving wheel

 

to this…

 

was solely done to trundle up and down Didcots track ?

 

It was a perfect storm of failure that 6023’s preservations dream was never realised, and I doubt will ever be.  it was even sized with chimney, bonnet and cab roofs for mainline and preserved line use. 4079 is another failed promise, but that one never made it to the starting gate before giving up.. 6023 did but was blocked on every turn.

 

if one loco sums up how the golden years started to fade, 6023 was it. (You may note i did not include 6024 in my original post, as it already exited before the end of the beginning). 6023 was destined to perform a duty it was denied to do.

Edited April 30 by adb968008

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

London can support more tours than it has, but it was neglected as a market.

The south east generally is a complex pile of spaghetti to weave a path through and an expensive place to cause delays, even if the costs are capped under the Performance Regime. 

 

Even in the early 1990s when FSS were running trips from there every week and the Performance Regime wasn't a thing, the imperative was that their path back into London was preserved because if they missed that they could wind up hours late. Plenty of times I was asked by the FSS train manager to cancel the run pasts at Appleby and just do a minimum water stop because they needed to hit their WCML or ECML slot. Given that he would be the one getting grief off the passengers for their missed photo ops it can't have been asked lightly. 

 

And a few times I cancelled them for him because the Sprinter was up his bum ...

Edited April 30 by Wheatley

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

The south east generally is a complex pile of spaghetti to weave a path through and an expensive place to cause delays, even if the costs are capped under the Performance Regime. 

 

Even in the early 1990s when FSS were running trips from there every week and the Performance Regime wasn't a thing, the imperative was that their path back into London was preserved because if they missed that they could wind up hours late. Plenty of times I was asked by the FSS train manager to cancel the run pasts at Appleby and just do a minimum water stop because they needed to hit their WCML or ECML slot. Given that he would be the one getting grief off the passengers for their missed photo ops it can't have been asked lightly. 

 

And a few times I cancelled them for him because the Sprinter was up his bum ...

London victoria however has p2, and set paths, at 073x and 084x that were available daily for mainline steam to use. It has paths almost hourly until noon invariably used by Belmond and Northern Belle.

 

The Dorset Coast Express I dont recall stopping at Appleby however.

Edited April 30 by adb968008

[Wheatley]

I didnt say it was impossible, I merely offered a reason as to why it might not be as popular as it once was. 

[Morello Cherry]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

It depends what you mean by support.

 

I have a feeling 2007-2012 were mainline steams golden years.

 

London can support more tours than it has, but it was neglected as a market. The DCE to Swanage and Weymouth 3 x a week was onto something, just as an example. Wcrc were looking at putting a turntable in Weymouth.

I also recall plans for a return to Stratford upon avon, and Oxford as a tourist product from Londom, and regular steam to Kyle from Inverness.

This wasnt down to lack of demand.

The decline started after Wootton Bassett, its never recovered. 

Its becoming is more about a higher end business model, rather than an enthusiast support base. The locos are the casualties and the tour market for the exclusive, as the costs have risen not because demand fell. At some point mainline steam will be a once in a lifetime opportunity ss it becomes too expensive.

 Saturday May 11th puts three steam locos into the Capital on three different tours (Actually 4 tours if you count 86259 on the CME) , enjoy it whilst it lasts, as its gone from a routine summer event, to an almost biennial, indeed I am approaching as most likely the last time 4 tours trapse London in the same day… 5 when the 33 comes on Sunday..

Enjoy it whilst it lasts.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd suggest that the 'golden era' is at the root of the problems the industry is seeing now.

 

During that period we saw a lot of expansion but that expansion was only possible by playing fast and loose with safety and in the end this culminated in Wootton Bassett. You can run lots of charters if you cut costs and corners such as getting rid of traction inspectors.

 

Beyond Wootton Bassett we've seen the SDR, GCR, NYMR, WSR all come under scrutiny over safety issues, paperwork and taking responsibility, in some cases we've seen not just ORR but also the CPS.

 

At the same time, the clowns by the trackside during Flying Scotsman's return to steam as well brought unwanted attention to the sector (videos such as the guy at the level crossing as well). (I did find it ironic that someone was complaining about parents not taking responsibility for their children when I've seen plenty of irresponsible train spotters and photographs on the railway - including people going off the end of the ramp on a 3rd rail station to get that all important photograph. It did make me wonder who the real 'brutes' who need a responsible adult to supervise them really are in all of this). You reap what you sow.

 

The result of Wootton Bassett, etc means that the authorities are paying a lot more attention to what goes on in the heritage sector. Whether that is WCR or WSR. The days when people could treat a line as their own private fiefdom are going and what we are seeing in WCR is the last kick of a dying regime.

 

But more importantly, scrutiny means costs are pushed up (as they should be) and what this means is that essentially only the very wealthy can afford to play trains - either essentially paying up, or being wealthy enough to think that the rules don't apply to them (hello lockdown trips to the Scottish highlands to test the toilets).

 

The smaller operating groups are unfortunately the collatoral damage caused by the sloppy, unsafe practices of others during the 'golden era' of rail tours.

 

When it comes to some connected with railways I am constantly reminded of Orwell's comment that nothing short of dynamite will convince some people which century they are living in.

[Not Jeremy]

Gosh, it's being so cheerful that must keep you chaps going.

 

On, and on, and on, and on, and on, and......

[david.hill64]

Reading the WCRC website, they are certainly playing the victim, unfairly singled out by the ORR.

 

Ho hum.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, david.hill64 said:

Reading the WCRC website, they are certainly playing the victim, unfairly singled out by the ORR.

 

Ho hum.

The only ones in step, as the saying used to go.

[rodent279]

3 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

Reading the WCRC website, they are certainly playing the victim, unfairly singled out by the ORR.

 

Ho hum.

Of course they are being singled out.

 

They are the only ones who haven't complied with ORR requirements.