WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Fine in the MkIIs today; not sure what it would be like in height of summer with no air-con running ...

Could they not open the sidelights by the seat's in the mk1, wedge the mk2d doors open and let the fresh air flow through ?

 

so 4 coaches, 64 seats each, £65 a seat, £16k a day revenue.

 

I wonder how much Scotrail are making on that line each day ?

 

so whats up in scotland..

 

37676/685  94225 4951 99326 99329 21266 1840 13320 13306

47245 45212 35486 6000, 6022 6103 1860 3360

45407 35517 3350 5453 99312 

fomation looks like

 

Train A 6000 4951 6022 1860 6103 21266 3360 

 

by my reckoning there isnt enough to run a complaint train B…

Unless theres been another drop, the only compliant stock is what just went up.. 3350, 5453.

 

Perhaps there isnt a train B, but replacing the empty mk1  TSO with 5453, and a spare FO

 

whats odd is theres now 3 Buffets up there.. 1840, 1860 and 99318, but only 1 brake.. 21266… the other two are support coaches. Could the buffets be the cdl power source?

 

Whats the max length they could run with a 1 train operation on the current timetable ?

 

 

 

Edited April 26 by adb968008

[uax6]

7 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

The various general duties under HASAWA are often not well understood, but are a catch all for safety incidents. There is a statutory duty to protect employees and one to protect third parties regardless of whether they are directly part of the activity (e.g. pedestrians walking past a building site). Another one not well understood is the legal requirement for employees to protect themselves and comply with employers instructions - plenty of case law of employees being prosecuted for not protecting their own safety, often where they were injured and the employer is prosecuted for not ensuring their safety by not dealing with poor safety behaviours, whilst the employee is prosecuted for not wearing the provided PPE or following legitimate employer procedures.

 

There does not need to be a specific regulation for someone to be prosecuted due to the breadth of general duties under HASAWA. The duty GTR was prosecuted under for a head out of a window was the same duty used against the Met in the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. So the general duties are wide ranging and cover situations even where there is no specific regulation.

 

UPDATE: as a safety practitioner covering H&S and fire safety, amongst the wider management population the existence and risk associated with the core general duties under both safety regimes is not well understood and I've had plenty of arguments with colleagues who don't understand or even accept this. If you manage people or activities with any risk you need to understand all the general duties as that is where the HSE starts looking to find ways to prosecute.

 

When I worked at BT the mirrors it the toilets all had nice little signs stuck to them that said 'You are looking at the person responsible for your safety'. A very pointed and accurate statement...

 

Andy G

[stewartingram]

5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

So ... FWIW, today's Jacobite report :

 

MkI doors locked out of use; MkIIs CDL fitted.

 

No seating allowed in the MkIs, but you can walk through. They really are towing empty coaches about.

 

Everybody in MkIIs; obviously fully booked.

Florence and her stewards patrolling, dissuading folks standing in vestibules taking photos through D/L windows. 

 

Those toilets in use on MkIs are retention tank fitted (they were last year - paid for by Net Rail). Didn't check whole train, but MkII toilets I saw were either locked out of use or 'do not use in station'(!?)

 

More to follow...

So, no stiitting in a Mk1, but toilets locked in a Mk2, then you have to sit  in the Mk1......

[Not Jeremy]

Quote

No. I wasn't doing any sort of audit(!) I was actually there leading a tour group and they were my priority. I grabbed the above photos as and when I could.

 

Oh really, you'll be telling us that you all enjoyed yourselves next - dreadful behaviour🤡

[LNER4479]

Being forced to photograph the train crossing the viaduct on the way out ...

 

... and being forced to photograph the train on the way back.

 

Dreadful behaviour indeed!

 

[rodent279]

So they are running Mk1's with doors that don't operate and toilets that do, that passengers can't sit in, with mk2's with doors that do operate, and toilets & air con that doesn't, that passengers can sit in. One might ask what's the point? Is this to avoid fitting retention toilets in the MK2 stock, or fitting CDL in the MK1 stock? Or are they just trying to make a point?

They look more and more like the sad old drunk trying to pick a fight with anyone who comes close.

Edited April 26 by rodent279

[uax6]

Are retention tanks actually mandated now? I would have thought that the Mk2's have grandfather rights to not have them. 

Are the Mk1's doing something else other than providing toilets (like providing electricity to the Mk2's).

Is the CDL actually under the control of the Guard or is it being controlled locally in each carriage? (not knowing how CDL is controlled along the train makes this difficult to know).

 

It seems, to quote Question of Sport, that there are more questions than answers at the minute.

 

Andy G

[Matt37268]

35 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Are retention tanks actually mandated now? I would have thought that the Mk2's have grandfather rights to not have them. 

Are the Mk1's doing something else other than providing toilets (like providing electricity to the Mk2's).

Is the CDL actually under the control of the Guard or is it being controlled locally in each carriage? (not knowing how CDL is controlled along the train makes this difficult to know).

 

It seems, to quote Question of Sport, that there are more questions than answers at the minute.

 

Andy G

I believe CDL tanks are mandatory on the big railway now, on a certain tour with a Thousand recently, participants were advised to make use of the facilities at its station stops as the stock hadn’t had chance to be emptied from its previous day’s duties. 

[Oldddudders]

ISTR Scotland/Scotrail mandated retention toilets some time back. 

[LNER4479]

7 hours ago, uax6 said:

Are retention tanks actually mandated now?

 

Is the CDL actually under the control of the Guard or is it being controlled locally in each carriage? (not knowing how CDL is controlled along the train makes this difficult to know).

 

I can confirm, quite categorically, that the CDL was being worked and operated as designed, ie all the CDL-fitted doors were locked and unlocked from one of the door panels - the guy was right by where we were at the Glenfinnan stop.

 

The toilet retention tanks thing is completely separate to the CDL debate and is not being driven by legislation per se. That's a Net Rail driven initiative, partly due to union pressure (track workers being exposed to unpleasantness, shall we say).

 

[uax6]

9 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I can confirm, quite categorically, that the CDL was being worked and operated as designed, ie all the CDL-fitted doors were locked and unlocked from one of the door panels - the guy was right by where we were at the Glenfinnan stop.

 

The toilet retention tanks thing is completely separate to the CDL debate and is not being driven by legislation per se. That's a Net Rail driven initiative, partly due to union pressure (track workers being exposed to unpleasantness, shall we say).

 

 

I'm aware of the unpleasantness, I was just going down the retention tank route (down the pan?) to try and find a reason why the Mk1's were in the train.....

 

Andy G

 

[5944]

14 hours ago, uax6 said:

 

I'm aware of the unpleasantness, I was just going down the retention tank route (down the pan?) to try and find a reason why the Mk1's were in the train.....

 

Andy G

 

Looks like WCRC are using them as 35 tonne portaloos.

[rodent279]

For all we know, they have submitted a viable timetable to fit CDL to the mk1's, and have put this method of operation forward to ORR as an interim solution that is more robust in terms of managing risk due to door incidents than using stewards in each vestibule. Where they stand in allowing passenger access to mk1's with all doors locked I don't know.

What would happen in BR days if for some reason all external doors had to be locked OOU on a carriage in the centre of a rake? Would the carriage be failed and pulled from the rake at the first opportunity?

[Legend]

On 26/04/2024 at 17:56, LNER4479 said:

Fine in the MkIIs today; not sure what it would be like in height of summer with no air-con running ...

I was just referring to the fact that the doors themselves were locked out of use; otherwise free to walk through them (and in fact had to at both Glenfinnan and Mallaig, as the MkII at the rear was off the platform.

I mean common sense wise that just can’t be right ! The mk2d with CDL is off the platform so you have to walk through the mk1 so that you presumably alight from the next mk2 . So an opening door next to a platform could be two coaches away at the extreme and one coach away at best . Can this be legal?  Also even though the mk1s are not for passenger use surely folks going to the toilet must be considered “ passenger use “ . What is the ORR doing . I just get the feeling WCRC are sticking the two fingers of scorn up . Surely operators that have complied must be furious at these antics 

Edited April 28 by Legend

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, rodent279 said:

For all we know, they have submitted a viable timetable to fit CDL to the mk1's, and have put this method of operation forward to ORR as an interim solution that is more robust in terms of managing risk due to door incidents than using stewards in each vestibule. Where they stand in allowing passenger access to mk1's with all doors locked I don't know.

What would happen in BR days if for some reason all external doors had to be locked OOU on a carriage in the centre of a rake? Would the carriage be failed and pulled from the rake at the first opportunity?

What happened in BR days isn't wholly relevant as what matters here is what the Rule Book says now.  And Modules TW1 and TW5 are unambiguous - if all the exterior doors on a coach are locked out of use passengers must not be allowed to travel in that coach.  That shouldn't preclude them being allowed to walk through the coach at a station stop if we take the wording literally but it is, I repeat, unambiguous when it comes to someone travelling in such a vehicle.

 

So simples - as pointed out by 'Legend' above.  if somebody goes into a locked coach when the train is passing Point A an in order to use the toilet and in consequence doesn't leave that coach until the trains passes point B then they are travelling in the coach.  And that is not permitted.   When it comes to the Rules WCRC are, once again taking the p*ss even if they now actually happen to be putting it in retention tanks.

Edited April 28 by The Stationmaster

[rab]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

When it comes to the Rules WCRC are, once again taking the p*ss 

WCRC seem to be more concerned about taking the p*ss than taking the passengers

[Michael Hodgson]

10 hours ago, 5944 said:

Looks like WCRC are using them as 35 tonne portaloos.

Oh Mister Porter, what shall I do? 

I want to go to Birmingham and they've taken me to the loo"

[11B]

It would appear that according to WCR someone isn't happy with the Jacobite and has forced them to suspend the afternoon service 

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-announcement-the-jacobite-pm-1?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3VTTnZm7NiCBc4DXLW-8cmXBkVrpOPVAOLz530Ml0APt6EPzZkdHWYyUk_aem_AeRVRttCNEJQNS9BVrCRvqTv6F_0PWQgwwjUz2QavwDdEfTAuQoPkYKm7BdLtMwjrHS05WWiaAIGwJkKxrY3kbtc

 

Kind regards Ian 

[Gilbert]

2 minutes ago, 11B said:

It would appear that according to WCR someone isn't happy with the Jacobite and has forced them to suspend the afternoon service 

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-announcement-the-jacobite-pm-1?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3VTTnZm7NiCBc4DXLW-8cmXBkVrpOPVAOLz530Ml0APt6EPzZkdHWYyUk_aem_AeRVRttCNEJQNS9BVrCRvqTv6F_0PWQgwwjUz2QavwDdEfTAuQoPkYKm7BdLtMwjrHS05WWiaAIGwJkKxrY3kbtc

 

Kind regards Ian 

Do both services use the same stock?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

11 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Do both services use the same stock?

There are two sets. In a post a few days ago, @adb968008 reckoned they didn't have enough stock for two trains:

 

If I have counted correctly, they appear to have 6 Mk2s with CDL and they are (or were) using 4 of these on the morning train.

[Gilbert]

Just now, Jeremy Cumberland said:

There are two sets. In a post a few days ago, @adb968008 reckoned they didn't have enough stock for two trains:

 

If I have counted correctly, they appear to have 6 Mk2s with CDL and they are (or were) using 4 of these on the morning train.

 I assumed that had to be the reason but thank you for the confrmation. So one set is considered "compliant" by the regulator....

Chris

[rodent279]

So guess they've been told to remove the Mk1's and run a fully compliant rake of mk2's?

Edited April 30 by rodent279

[Michael Hodgson]

Cue more lobbying of Scottish politicians. 

Who at the moment are probably more interested in who's still going to have a job tomorrow.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

So guess they've been told to remove the Mk1's and run a fully compliant rake of mk2's?

I doubt it. I don't think they've got a CDL fitted brake vehicle, and presumably they want catering as well, plus some/all of the CDL-fitted stock doesn't have retention tank toilets, so Mk1s are needed for loos. To me it looks more like they simply don't have enough CDL-fitted stock for two sets.

 

I'm not sure why they took three more coaches to Fort William last week, whether it is just spares for the first set, or whether they intended strengthening the set to 5 CDL-fitted vehicles, or whether it is just part of the unfathomable mind games they are playing with the regulator.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, 11B said:

It would appear that according to WCR someone isn't happy with the Jacobite and has forced them to suspend the afternoon service 

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-announcement-the-jacobite-pm-1?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3VTTnZm7NiCBc4DXLW-8cmXBkVrpOPVAOLz530Ml0APt6EPzZkdHWYyUk_aem_AeRVRttCNEJQNS9BVrCRvqTv6F_0PWQgwwjUz2QavwDdEfTAuQoPkYKm7BdLtMwjrHS05WWiaAIGwJkKxrY3kbtc

 

Kind regards Ian 

'Fully committed to safety' while at the same time not complying with the requirements of the Rule Book?  That sounds like yet more WCRC double speak - this lot are beyond even a sad music hall joke.    I really do wonder exactly what they are playing at - apart from not complying with the Rules?