WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Which coaling / ash towers were the Hornby and Bachmann models scaled off ?

 

They may have already been scanned ?

I have an LMS booklet detailing the various types of coaling tower. I got part way through scanning it, must finish it.

[APOLLO]

Carnforth shed, last week of steam, August 1968.

 

 

 

A young Apollo !

 

 

Brit15

[ruggedpeak]

Just for fun this is the platform at Herrenberg in southern Germany, on the line between Stuttgart and Zurich.

 

Train is a DB double decker EMU. Platforms are the correct height for the local and regional single deck EMU's. Quite a step but at least there's the platform that comes out of the side of the train to stop you falling onto the track.

 

 

 

Phone images so rotated for usual reason.

[Morello Cherry]

Bodmin Parkway is one that has stuck in my mind as having a nasty drop -  due to the B&W it is the kind of station that is likely to have a fair few passengers who are either elderly or with young children but probably not enough to warrant attention (until someone badly hurts themselves)

 

[Matt37268]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Theres over 100-200 vehicles… that many vehicles all at once would flood the market. The locos would suck some cash from the sector too.

Most will end up in the bin.

Lets see what happens to these dozen coaches currently up for sale ?

6151 - MK2F - TSO

6134 - MK2F - TSO

1252 - MK2F - FO
5925 - MK2F - TSO

6154 - MK2F - TSO

1253 - MK2F - FO

6073 - MK2F - TSO

6029 - MK2F - TSO

5815 - MK2E - TSO

5888 - MK2E - TSO

5958 - MK2F - TSO

6045 - MK2F - TSO

6009 - MK2F - TSO

5978 - MK2F - TSO

 

All cdl fitted, in need of restoration, one is burnt out.

But its clear wcrc sees no future in mk2def by binning the reserve fleet, and doubt anyone else will either.

 

Dont forget capital gains, those coaches only cost £2k back in the 1990’s, there might be a horrendous liability there, which is tax to pay, not losses offset against tax.
 

LSL would be looking to feast, and lets not pretend LSL isnt hunting wcrc. The antics in FW show it is seeking to hurt WCRC. That isnt compassionate preservation its cold business. Wcrc may not want that.

 

its not as if preserved railways have loads of spare space too. I’d imagine a fair number would end up on campsites and glamping… indeed bottom end of Carnforth might even make a glamping site.

 

What makes you think people wouldnt want to live next to the wcml ?… thousands of people up and down it already do,including in Carnforth, some even have scrap coaches for a view. Commuting convienience often outweighs the distractors.

 

Just as many maybes against as for, making the retort just as facetious.

 

The truth might lie in the middle, making it no less uncomfortable… The steamies will have a future, so will Queen of Scots set, maybe the Lakelands Pullman set, but the rest… what else can you do with a crumbling listed steam shed and structures, on an industrial site in a prime real estate location populated with an extensive collection of rotting vehicles without a substantial revenue stream ?

 

Truth is, if it wasnt for WCRC, Carnforth MPD would have been demolished for housing decades ago, just like the housing estate that sprung up next to it… and just up the Barrow line. Look at Lostock Hall, Bolton, Southport flat ex-Railway land is easy to redevelop. It was game over in 1990, a sad depressing shed with few attractions at the time, why, because the 1968 vintage had gone stale and preserved lines across the country had taken its place, hence why Dinting and Southport ultimately folded too.. the will wasnt there and better options presented themselves. Tyseley is no different, it realised survival is to be a maintenance base and tour operator, not a railway museum.

 

Indeed the mistake was made back in 1968, Lostock Hall would have been a much better location for a railway museum, in its in a city catchment area, and ideal as a mainline changeover location.. As soon as the lakeside branch was lost they should have moved on.

Hindsight always has 20/20 vision doesn’t it? 

[Matt37268]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Crewe works has a substantial housing estate on it.

 

lets not pretend its impossible.

Developers smell £££ and make £££ by taking on these jobs.

 

Crewe is much less glamourous than the lakes.

 

Canary Wharf is built on poisonous toxins from hundreds of years of dubious dealings too. No one ever worried about that. I doubt theres rare newts and bats in Carnforth either.

 

 

Your plans for 10A seem all fine and dandy, but can I pull you up on a major point? 
Are you the landlord of the site of 10A? 
 

[Ohmisterporter]

AS a matter of interest what are the rules regarding the care of listed structures? Are they allowed to slowly deteriorate to the point where they either collapse or have to be rebuilt completely, even if they serve no useful purpose? I know of several listed buildings that should have been demolished but were listed in order to "save" them for posterity. An example is the former Lancaster Corporation bus garage. 

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Theres over 100-200 vehicles… that many vehicles all at once would flood the market. The locos would suck some cash from the sector too.

Most will end up in the bin.

Lets see what happens to these dozen coaches currently up for sale ?

6151 - MK2F - TSO

6134 - MK2F - TSO

1252 - MK2F - FO
5925 - MK2F - TSO

6154 - MK2F - TSO

1253 - MK2F - FO

6073 - MK2F - TSO

6029 - MK2F - TSO

5815 - MK2E - TSO

5888 - MK2E - TSO

5958 - MK2F - TSO

6045 - MK2F - TSO

6009 - MK2F - TSO

5978 - MK2F - TSO

 

All cdl fitted, in need of restoration, one is burnt out.

y catchment area, and ideal as a mainline changeover location.. As soon as the lakeside branch was lost they should have moved on.

So what you're saying is that WCRC/Steamtown or whoever in the group has just over a dozen vehicles that it doesn't want from which it could recover CDL fittings.  I wonder if they have thought of that?

 

[dunwurken]

If Mr Smith takes the same attitude to the rules for maintaining a historic building as he does to passenger safety then expect the shed to deteriorate to the extent it has to be demolished on safety grounds.   Oh, on second thoughts, would Mr Smith recognise safety as a good reason to take action!🤔

[GrumpyPenguin]

18 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Just for fun this is the platform at Herrenberg in southern Germany, on the line between Stuttgart and Zurich.

 

Train is a DB double decker EMU. Platforms are the correct height for the local and regional single deck EMU's. Quite a step but at least there's the platform that comes out of the side of the train to stop you falling onto the track.

 

 

 

Phone images so rotated for usual reason.

AFAIK most platforms in Europe are lower as are the entrances of the double decker stock - the extentable ramp/platform is a good idea.

Also, station platforms tend to be less curved, especially in Switzerland where they are often dead straight so that the driver can see down the whole length of the train through his mirrors.

I do have to comment favourably on the assistance given by the TOC's when travelling with my wife in a wheeelchair - provided that you give them a realistic notice they will provide assistance at both ends of the journey - fair play to them.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

So what you're saying is that WCRC/Steamtown or whoever in the group has just over a dozen vehicles that it doesn't want from which it could recover CDL fittings.  I wonder if they have thought of that?

 

It would seem so, last week when passing Southall, aside of 1, which is burnt out, the rest look quite sorry, but the led lights relating to cdl were in place and coaches look sorry, but whole.

 

the advert is here…

https://www.tractionads.co.uk/html/vehicles.htm
 

right hand side half way down the page.

 

obviously wcrc dont  need them, even for spare parts.

The other thing with that ad, is the number of mk1/2’s available, at least 6 TSOs, and more brakes (seems its not just model railways with too many brakes), two catering, even a cinema coach, ontop of wcrcs 14 vehicles. It wasnt long ago another party was renown for cheque book waving at these type of coaches, but seem to have either got enough or changed their mind.
 

Either way reading the ads, theres enough there to build a rake, indeed theres around 30 coaches available to buy, but not many First….

 

Edited May 6 by adb968008

[john new]

2 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

AS a matter of interest what are the rules regarding the care of listed structures? Are they allowed to slowly deteriorate to the point where they either collapse or have to be rebuilt completely, even if they serve no useful purpose? I know of several listed buildings that should have been demolished but were listed in order to "save" them for posterity. An example is the former Lancaster Corporation bus garage. 

Not 100% certain but I don’t think so although memory from when I was still working (over 15 years ago now) is that consent to demolish would be required. The whole buildings at risk register backs up my memory that adequate maintenance is not mandatory. 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

AS a matter of interest what are the rules regarding the care of listed structures? Are they allowed to slowly deteriorate to the point where they either collapse or have to be rebuilt completely, even if they serve no useful purpose? I know of several listed buildings that should have been demolished but were listed in order to "save" them for posterity. An example is the former Lancaster Corporation bus garage. 

The country is littered with crumbling castles and once stately homes.

Then theres all kinds of semi and full derelict structures, from wells to walls.

 

Listed status just puts it on a list.

 

Carnforth shed is on the heritage at risk register..

https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/heritage-at-risk/search-register/list-entry/282450

 

Quote

Assessment Information

Assessment Type: Building or structure

Condition: Very bad

Occupancy / Use: Part occupied/part in use

Priority: A - Immediate risk of further rapid deterioration or loss of fabric; no solution agreed

Previous Priority: A

Ownership: Commercial company

Designation: Listed Building grade II*, CA

Battersea power station was the same for decades too.. look at it now, thousands of flats, retail mall and social centre.

is it a power station, no, but I doubt few would argue it doesnt look good and been repurposed very well.

 

Theres been many such projects, indeed the derelict grimy, burnt out, drug gang fueled, industrial streets of Manchester city centre have been almost entirely repurposed.. I dont even recognise the city I grew up in… Many of the buildings are the same, but the restoration and re-commercialisation of the city is most impressive.

 

Manchester is a shiny example of making an Irvine Welsh Trainspotting toilet into a Palace fit for Mancunians.

 

Redevelopment of industrial sites only happens for 2 reasons… retail or residential, or both. But its always for profit that makes these things happen.

Edited May 6 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, john new said:

Not 100% certain but I don’t think so although memory from when I was still working (over 15 years ago now) is that consent to demolish would be required. The whole buildings at risk register backs up my memory that adequate maintenance is not mandatory. 

If a building is Listed then it is a legal requirement to maintain it. Failure to do so is a criminal offence. However finding anyone willing to enforce it is a different matter. That sits with the local planners. They also have the power to step in and carry out repairs and then claim it back of the owner. However that is often easier said than done.

Altering a listed building requires planning consent and listed building consent. Leaving it to deteriorate doesn't mean you will get it

 

Also note that on the one hand everything within the curtilage of a listed building is considered listed, equally the actual listing is defined in writing and can be very specific eg just part of the interior. It doesn't have to be the whole building or site

[Matt37268]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The country is littered with crumbling castles and once stately homes.

Then theres all kinds of semi and full derelict structures, from wells to walls.

 

Listed status just puts it on a list.

 

Carnforth shed is on the heritage at risk register..

https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/heritage-at-risk/search-register/list-entry/282450

 

Battersea power station was the same for decades too.. look at it now, thousands of flats, retail mall and social centre.

is it a power station, no, but I doubt few would argue it doesnt look good and been repurposed very well.

 

Theres been many such projects, indeed the derelict grimy, burnt out, drug gang fueled, industrial streets of Manchester city centre have been almost entirely repurposed.. I dont even recognise the city I grew up in… Many of the buildings are the same, but the restoration and re-commercialisation of the city is most impressive.

 

Manchester is a shiny example of making an Irvine Welsh Trainspotting toilet into a Palace fit for Mancunians.

 

Redevelopment of industrial sites only happens for 2 reasons… retail or residential, or both. But its always for profit that makes these things happen.

Manchester is a city (one that likes to take credit for other’s achievements, I have to say) and it has rather decent links to other places in the UK, please tell us all why anyone should want to relocate to a rather isolated town in Lancashire just because the there’s a very theoretical chance the the depot and its surrounding area theoretically in your opinion might be ‘redeveloped’? 
Getting back on topic I’m guessing there’s been no news on the operation of the second train? 
 

Edited May 6 by Matt37268

[adb968008]

30 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

Manchester is a city (one that likes to take credit for other’s achievements, I have to say)

 

 

100% agree with that.

 

30 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

 

and it has rather decent links to other places in the UK, please tell us all why anyone should want to relocate to a rather isolated town in Lancashire just because the there’s a very theoretical chance the the depot and its surrounding area theoretically in your opinion might be ‘redeveloped’? 
 

https://www.rowland.co.uk/find-your-home/riverside-place/
 

they know something you don’t obviously. Over 200 properties, c£300k+ each.

Thats an ex-industrial site too, right next to the A6 and WCML, M6 just around the corner.

 

its pretty much next door to 10A.

 

i’d imagine they walk around for a cuppa and a chat once that site is finished.

90 mins from Manchester by train, work from home in the lakes 2-3 days a week, plus weekend..

I could do that.

Edited May 6 by adb968008

[Matt37268]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

https://www.rowland.co.uk/find-your-home/riverside-place/
 

they know something you don’t obviously.

 

Living in East Anglia, land prices in the North West aren’t exactly on my radar. 
Obviously. 

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

Living in East Anglia, land prices in the North West aren’t exactly on my radar. 
Obviously. 

As a mancunian, chasing money, I left first chance I could.

There was only tears and the dole when I grew up.

The IRA attack was ultimately a positive thing that happened in Manchester, so much redevelopment money poured in.

Before that it wasnt far from becoming outside control of law.

 

initially it was for nought as the jobs werent there.

Covid is the second best thing that happened. Salaries have hugely jumped.

Thousands of northerners in the professional services sector realised how cheap it is to work from home, whilst on a 2/3rds London salary…

so they left London for the north, and halved their cost of living, and ditched the travelcard.

 

Now they move to places like Blackpool, the lakes… where its even cheaper, still take home that salary, enjoy the view and have much less stress, in return for a couple of days a week commuting… Then a holiday in the caribbean isnt so hard to reach.

 

I have to be honest, a retreat in the fells is on my list too… having a bad zoom meeting whilst looking at a green hillside is very restful… five minutes drive to be in a fantastic view… or 45 minutes driving down Deansgate which would you prefer ?
 

 

 

Edited May 6 by adb968008

[Matt37268]

29 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

I have to be honest, a retreat in the fells is on my list too… having a bad zoom meeting whilst looking at a green hillside is very restful… five minutes drive to be in a fantastic view… or 45 minutes driving down Deansgate which would you prefer ?
 

 

I really wouldn’t know, my own commute involves a bike ride through the former Chesterton PW depot and along the Cam. 
 

 

[5944]

UK - don't let any body part get anywhere near an open window on pain of death. Raise your hand if you're on a railtour and need the loo. Meanwhile, in Germany...

 

 

Just the four people - 2 witches, 2 devils - hanging off the side of the loco during the annual Walpurgis special in the Harz. They travel from Wernigerode to at least Schierke like that, possibly all the way to the Brocken. Oh, and there's a tunnel en route!

[Morello Cherry]

Just a suggestion for the 'Woe is me I can no longer get up close and personal with the engine due to the nanny state ORR demanding the end of MK1s' crowd but have you considered a visit to the WLLR?

 

 

6 hours ago, 5944 said:

UK - don't let any body part get anywhere near an open window on pain of death. Raise your hand if you're on a railtour and need the loo. Meanwhile, in Germany...

 

 

Just the four people - 2 witches, 2 devils - hanging off the side of the loco during the annual Walpurgis special in the Harz. They travel from Wernigerode to at least Schierke like that, possibly all the way to the Brocken. Oh, and there's a tunnel en route!

 

Those namby pamby Europeans...

 

UK - bloke goes to the BBC declaring Ealing Broadway to be a death trap because he fell over.
Germany - let's strap some witches to the side tank of loco where they can wave and cackle to .

the public.

 

I guess that anyone who wants to experience what life in an indicator shelter, hand sanding, or going round the outside while in motion knows where to apply. You've just got to cackle and wave a lot.

Mind you, they are getting a bit soft compared to the old days, these days they strap them onto the loco.

 

 

 

Witches strapped to locos, people stood on balconies, leaning out of windows...

 

 

 

[jjb1970]

On Germany and industrial health and safety, I'd offer an observation that when I worked for a German owned electricity and gas multi-national the safety indicators for their German (and indeed most other) electricity generating power stations were significantly worse than those for the UK fleet. At one point they were whinging about the safety rules which were still the old CEGB rules and demanding that requirements to isolate, earth, lock-out and put locks in a key safe and with the key safe key attached to the permit to work be dropped as excessive and that tags be allowed. As well as massive push back from engineering staff I believe they got some pretty robust opinion from their English legal counsel on the position they'd be in if/when they fried someone after plant was re-energised and they'd abandoned a rule that'd have prevented such an incident. The safety rules facilitated work in a timely manner and weren't especially burdensome, provided work planning was good. Then, if work is not being planned that raises red flags anyway.

[ruggedpeak]

Different countries have different tolerances and legal systems.

 

I was surprised to find on the Rhaetian Bahn that at some stations the 'platform' is a bit of concrete between the tracks and you get off onto that and then have to wait for the trains to move before you cross the track to leave. Given the space between the trains isn't much bigger than the dynamic envelope it is an interesting place to stand, this lady has got off the train I am on and the Pontresina service is departing. You can literally step out of one train into the path of another......

 

 

The Swiss for example are big on personal responsibility (which I like) but appear to have a less strict safety culture compared to the UK in my experience.

 

Germany is an interesting choice given its huge number of fatalties (compared to the UK and much of the EU) on the railways. 151 people died on its railways in 2022, versus 27 in the UK for the 2022/23 period. That is 5x as many deaths, despite the populations being 83m and 67m respectively. Figures exclude suicides.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Railway_safety_statistics_in_the_EU

 

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/health-and-safety/rail-safety/

 

The article below gives flavour from the workforce perspective, a recurring series of fatal accidents in recent years including passenger train crashes and rail workers being killed on a regular basis on German railways. 

 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/14/xaak-s14.html

 

[Bucoops]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

On Germany and industrial health and safety, I'd offer an observation that when I worked for a German owned electricity and gas multi-national the safety indicators for their German (and indeed most other) electricity generating power stations were significantly worse than those for the UK fleet. At one point they were whinging about the safety rules which were still the old CEGB rules and demanding that requirements to isolate, earth, lock-out and put locks in a key safe and with the key safe key attached to the permit to work be dropped as excessive and that tags be allowed. As well as massive push back from engineering staff I believe they got some pretty robust opinion from their English legal counsel on the position they'd be in if/when they fried someone after plant was re-energised and they'd abandoned a rule that'd have prevented such an incident. The safety rules facilitated work in a timely manner and weren't especially burdensome, provided work planning was good. Then, if work is not being planned that raises red flags anyway.

 

We were supposed to be working on a lift, and it required the power to be isolated. So when we turned up expecting to be shown a locked power switch, tagged, and a certificate. Instead we were shown a post-it note saying turn this back on when done. We left. 

[phil-b259]

15 hours ago, 5944 said:

UK - don't let any body part get anywhere near an open window on pain of death. Raise your hand if you're on a railtour and need the loo. Meanwhile, in Germany...

 

 

Just the four people - 2 witches, 2 devils - hanging off the side of the loco during the annual Walpurgis special in the Harz. They travel from Wernigerode to at least Schierke like that, possibly all the way to the Brocken. Oh, and there's a tunnel en route!

 

And?

 

German laws and German safety authorities do not have any jurisdiction in the UK while UK law and UK safety authorities don't have any jurisdiction over here.

 

Its extremely tiresome when people insist on putting this sort of stuff on this thread - with the implicit implication that the UK authorities are over zealous.

 

UK regulators / authorities enforce complacence with UK LAW!

 

If you dislike this state of affairs then you need to get political and start lobbying MPs to change the laws which the UK courts use - not post pictures about what other countries do!